Reblogging about gifted programs
I think this topic is important enough that it deserves a less snarky blog post than the one I wrote yesterday.
Let’s start by discussing bobo attitudes. Back in the 1970s, New York City was seen as a place that people wanted to get out of. They wanted to move to nice suburbs. In the 1970s, John Carpenter wrote the screenplay for Escape from New York which takes place in a future 1990s where Manhattan sank so far in crime that it became one huge prison island. There was also the 1974 movie Death Wish in which Charles Bronson plays a professional living in Manhattan whose wife is killed by muggers, and then he becomes a vigilante who brings justice to the criminal scum.
Things have changed drastically since the 1970s. Today we have bobos, and bobos want to live in Manhattan or the trendy parts of Brooklyn. But this creates a problem for bobos with children. Where to they send their children to school? There’s the perception among bobos that the New York City schools are somehow “bad,” and the perceived badness of a particular school seems to be strongly correlated with the percentage of poor black and Hispanic students. Bobos with money send their children to private school. Bobos who don’t make enough money to afford private school face quite a dilemma.
The New York Times article is about the “gifted programs” in the public schools. These gifted programs have created a public school alternative that’s acceptable to some bobos, so long as their children qualify for the gifted program. Currently, the qualification is based on scoring in the 90th percentile or higher on a nationally standardized test. This was implemented in 2008. The old method gave more latitude to the schools. It was thought that removing discretion from the school teachers and using a test instead would remove racial bias from the process, but strangely the opposite happened, and now with standardized testing there are fewer black and Hispanic children in the gifted programs than there were before.
Some liberals really hate the idea of gifted programs because they “segregate” children into Asian and white “gifted” classes and black and Hispanic general education classes. Al Baker, the journalist who wrote the article, seems to be on the side of the liberals. But I need to point out that Al is not one of those spoiled rich kid journalists. His father was a cop.
Anyway, liberals really hate gifted programs, so there are these people out there who would like to abolish gifted programs in order to make the schools more egalitarian. Some conservative readers may think that there is some hypocrisy involved. Do any of the white liberals complaining about gifted programs allow their own children to attend school in the general education classes where they may be the only white kid? The answer is probably not, although there may be a tiny handful of such liberals who are so committed to the ideal of egalitarianism that they do allow their kids to attend such classes. But these liberals do not see themselves as hypocrites. They would like nothing more than to have their children attend school with smart and well behaved black children like Malia and Sasha Obama, it’s just that the children attending the general education classes in the public schools in New York City don’t seem to be like the Obamas. They blame Republicans for being too cheap to properly fund government programs that would solve these social programs.
Bloomberg, who is the bobo mayor, probably wouldn’t get behind a movement to abolish gifted classes. Just as he stuck up for the biggest bobo sporting event, the New York Marathon, he will stick up for gifted classes. Bloomberg wants to help the poorer students by prohibiting them from drinking large sodas and implementing other measures to prevent them from becoming fat slobs.
The existence of gifted programs with a 90th percentile cutoff doesn’t help all bobos, because what about boos whose children score below the 90th percentile? Although a surprisingly large percentage, much larger than 10%, of bobo parents have children who score in the 90th percentile, there are still many whose children just aren’t smart enough to score in the top 10%. The article implies that these parents do not allow their children attend New York City public school in the regular classes. These parents, apparently, either move out of the city to the suburbs, or they manage to reach into their pockets and find the money for private school tuition.

Are you sure that the cutoff for NYC gifted is 90th percentile nationally normed, or is it just 90th percentile of NYC students, using a nationally-available test? Because with so many deprived students of color in NYC liable to score poorly on tests, it might be that many more than 10% of white students in NYC schools are at the 90th percentile for NYC students even if they wouldn’t stand out so much if measured against a truly national sample.
Ziggurat
January 14, 2013 at 6:28 pm
Yeah, I think they write their own entrance criteria, because it seems implausible that 50% of white kids are above the 90% and that 16% of blacks are above the 90%.
Shouldn’t only 10% be above the 90%.
I mean in an affluent neighborhood, okay, a little more, but not that much.
not too late
January 15, 2013 at 9:49 am
50% of white kids in Manhattan and the good neighborhoods of Brooklyn, not 50% of white kids nationwide.
Lion of the Blogosphere
January 15, 2013 at 11:13 am
Lion, I think that you wrote a spectacular summary. Thank you. I
afd;jksdsakjf
January 14, 2013 at 8:58 pm
How did you find Al Baker’s father was a police officer? Scary what you can fine out about people…
I think parts of the upper east side have elementary school districts that don’t include the projects. P.S.6 in particular draws from just a small section of the upper east side next to Central Park. P.S.6 is perenially overcrowded and shrinks its school district every few years to shake off some people in the fringes. So if you are looking to enroll a kid in P.S.6, make sure your condo/coop is very close to the school!
AsianDude
January 14, 2013 at 9:35 pm
And if you look at the map in the original NY Times article, you see that schools in the upper east side do not have G&T programs. Obviously because there’s no need…
AsianDude
January 14, 2013 at 9:39 pm
Lion, the very best primary school in NYC is ps 234. look up the stats. Ps 234 has almost the same demographics as you will find at a school in a wealthy suburb like Scarsdale, Greenwich or Darien. the student base is almost entirely white with some asians. just about no children getting free lunch. average household income over 150k per year. no need for G&T in this school, no pathologies at all. Too bad it costs at least seven thousand bucks a month to rent a three bedroom apartment in this district
afd;jksdsakjf
January 14, 2013 at 11:58 pm
ps234 is in tribeca so I assume the atmoshere is more bobo than upper east side or wealthy suburbs in CT or westchester.
AsianDude
January 15, 2013 at 11:12 am
The city of San Francisco has a lottery system for students attending public schools. Even if a family lives across the street from a public school, their child could get selected to attend a school all the way on the other side of the city in the hood. To make matters worse, the city doesn’t have school buses, so kids get to experience real life on the city bus. The lottery system is an attempt to make every school’s demographics racially, economically and socially similar to each other. If parents want their kids to attend a decent public high school, they can only hope their child gets accepted to the magnet public high school for the brightest students called Lowell. Otherwise, their child will have to interact with some unsavory students. .
bobo
January 15, 2013 at 5:29 am
In sf is the lottery system only for high school or for k as well ?
Hhggyh
January 15, 2013 at 10:28 am
Your talk about the conflict between Bloomberg/bobos and liberals reminded me of the comment by “JerseyGuy” here: http://isteve.blogspot.co.il/2012/12/bloomberg-gun-control-and-stop-and-frisk.html
Great points by Ross and Steve. I think there are two dominant political ideologies amongst today’s American, urban, cosmopolitan, technocratic elite.
One is “Bloombergism”, which is probably best represented by the Economist magazine. It’s for all intents and purposes center-left, but relies on semi-managed market based solutions in order to shape society.
The other is “Yglesisism”, which is probably best represented by Slate.com or Salon.com. It’s certainly left wing but soft left. It is not hostile to market but relies of heavily managed market based solutions if possible and “soft” government ownership solutions to shape society.
IHTG
January 15, 2013 at 10:46 am
I don’t care what school system you are in, if you have half a clue, you want your kids in the G&T program in your school.
This is speaking as someone who grew up on Long Island and now has kids in suburban Chicago schools. Even in the almost all white schools that I have experience with, the “normal” classes are just awful, because the parents of the kids in those schools do not value academics.
Buzzcut
January 15, 2013 at 11:42 am
Buzzcut is right. Traditionally “gifted and talented” meant a score in the 95th percentile or even the 98th percentile. No matter how affluent the Upper East districts are there is no way that the average IQ is going to be much over 110, certainly not 115, or the 85th percentile. And there will be some “average” students thrown in there to slow things down. So bright kids in these affluent systems are missing out by this forced egalitarianism of not having gifted programs.
Of course, there would be no need for “gifted and talented” programs if schools would just abolish age grading and sort children first by achievement/ability, then by age.
ColRebSez
January 15, 2013 at 2:43 pm
My school district (in suburban Philly) had G&T but that was a separate program, outside of class. Classes were sorted by general ability starting in about 6th grade.
Jack
January 15, 2013 at 6:04 pm
My children are the only white kids in school that is mostly black. My reasons for this are no more noble than that I’m too lazy to drive them elsewhere to school each morning. I find it kind of funny that my liberal acquaintances would rather die than send their kids to this same school– I’ve even invited them to open houses to no avail.
An interesting anecdote– my mom, a retired principal, claims that back in the 1960s about half of a typical public school class would be what is considered “gifted” today, but when educated, affluent whites started having fewer children, she would be lucky to have one or two such kids per class.
islandmommy
January 15, 2013 at 10:33 pm
As someone who went to a school like that (stupid liberal parents), let me say that you are guilty of child abuse.
Look at the things Howard Stern has said about being the last white kid left in Roosevelt (again, stupid liberal parents). It’s awful. Pure torture, with no redeeming qualities, even looking back on it now.
Buzzcut
January 16, 2013 at 10:46 am
Were you in a public or Catholic school?
islandmommy
January 16, 2013 at 12:10 pm
I was a in gifted program from 5th grade to 12th. I’m absolutely thankful that (for now) that these opportunities exist for bright kids. I thought for a while that it was all the same and that many of my “gifted” friends were no better than other kids, and that we were just being cliquey. I happened to take a “normal” English class (so not math or phys, mind you) for a week in Gr. 12 before going back to gifted.
I’m sorry, but there are staggeringly obvious differences in intelligence. If I hadn’t been put in gifted I probably would have been a trouble maker and a disruptor due to boredom.
I do not want public schools to get worse, but it pains me to say that my kids will be private-schooled, unless public school administrators/curriculum writers get their heads out of their asses. Also parents need to accept (sigh, never will happen) that maybe their kids are not that bright — if a parent sees their kid is getting bad grades consistently, the answer is not to do away with tricky Shakespeare and a serious high school course on trigonometry.
Finally, since school is about education as well as signalling, how the hell are parents to take seriously the notion that all the kids should be doing well? Hell no! Some kids get 60s no matter how hard they try, and that’s the way it should be. It wouldn’t mean the system is flawed – it would means we’ve stopped moving the goalposts and kidding ourselves.
GenGG
January 16, 2013 at 12:34 am
” I don’t care what school system you are in, if you have half a clue, you want your kids in the G&T program in your school.
This is speaking as someone who grew up on Long Island and now has kids in suburban Chicago schools. Even in the almost all white schools that I have experience with, the “normal” classes are just awful, because the parents of the kids in those schools do not value academics.”
Amen, you said it before I could apparently.
GenGG
January 16, 2013 at 12:37 am
Democrats/Lefties are immune to hypocrisy. The ends justify the means, and they know better what is best for you–just ask ‘em, they’ll tell you. And with that amount of arrogance, they experience no shame.
Forbes
January 16, 2013 at 6:49 pm
I just want to put in a nostalgic, incredibly grateful word for the Mentally Gifted Minor program in California back in the 70′s. Strictly based on an IQ test. Those classes made all the difference in my life. Eventually, of course, someone realized that if you base things on an IQ test you get too many of those horrible evil racist white 5th graders, and California changed the MGM program to Gifted And Talented. I’ll defer to other commenters on how one is identified for GATE.
Eastside School
January 17, 2013 at 12:30 am
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