Governor Cuomo is introducing legislation to make it easier for women to get late-term abortions in NY State.
I think this is a great idea. These women who are having abortions are unmarried, and without abortion they would become single mothers on welfare.
Republicans who support states’ rights are hypocrites if they oppose these laws. They say abortion should be left to the states. So they should be happy that some states believe in liberal access to abortion.
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It sickens me that people think this is a good idea. I’m an unmarried mother and yes, it’s hard work but it’s worth it. Maybe people are forgetting babies are actually live human beings and abortion is killing an innocent human; murder. Or maybe they just don’t care out of selfishness. Ever heard of adoption? There are thousands of parents who would welcome an unwanted baby and pay for medical costs. It’s disgusting that we, not only as Americans, but as human beings, have lowered ourselves to such measures.
hernameisjordan
February 17, 2013 at 1:43 pm
Murder is the “UNLAWFUL” killing of a human. Since abortion is legal, it’s by definition not murder, and most people don’t consider fetuses human, because they don’t have a soul until they are born.
Lion of the Blogosphere
February 17, 2013 at 6:16 pm
It used to be lawful to kill slaves in this country, and in some countries and cultures it is acceptable to kill daughters in the name of family honor. Just because something is within the law doesn’t make it acceptable or right.
“Most people don’t consider a fetus human–” do you have data on this, because I’m pretty sure popular opinion is the opposite.
islandmommy
February 17, 2013 at 6:31 pm
This is true, as the fetus passes through the vagina, the vagina walls secretes a lubricant that allows the soul to “quicken” it’s way, as it were, into the body. If a child is born via the caeserian method, it is not human because the soul was not able to enter, it bounced off and has to reenter the monkee from which it originally came.
S_McCoy The Winged Lion
February 17, 2013 at 6:58 pm
So by your logic the definition of murder can never be changed? Murder is just whatever the law says it is and should never change?
Reynald
February 17, 2013 at 8:13 pm
How do you know when the babies get a soul?
DaveinHackensack
February 17, 2013 at 8:18 pm
–Oh, and that “don’t have a soul until they are born” is on thin ice, everywhere from Aristotle to Augustine to your Materialist of choice.
All other issues waived: what kind of loser has to wait past the first trimester (the point at which atheist Denmark, France, and Russia forbid further abortions, natch) to terminate an unwanted pregnancy?
You think we should countenance medical horrors out of “Day of the Dead” to give these wretched creatures time enough to kill their fetuses which, unwanted or not, are well past the terminus for being waived aside as so much sperm-spun rubbish.
I wonder sometimes whether your ideological preferences have any spine, except when you want to gross out the swath of the commentariate which offends your haute hipster sensibilities.
Lucius Somesuch
February 17, 2013 at 8:58 pm
If fetuses have a soul, then miscarriages should be considered God performing abortions?
Peter the Shark
February 18, 2013 at 4:04 am
Its ridiculous amoral nonsense that we would celebrate murder for an intangible, unverifiable, unsubstantiated future benefit.
People that are going to be having later term abortions are going to be having more pregnancies. You’ve avoided nothing.
Lion of the Turambar
February 18, 2013 at 9:35 am
Given that abortion is already legal, I doubt very much that making it slightly easier to get a late-term abortion is going to cause any woman to have more sex than she’s already having.
Lion of the Blogosphere
February 18, 2013 at 10:40 am
“yes, it’s hard work but it’s worth it” Worth it to whom? You, yes of course. However have a bit of sympathy for the rest of us. We want to live in a world where everyone is happily married. The only way to make this happen is to reduce the fertility of people who undermine that goal. Right now abortion is the only socially acceptable way to reduce the fertility of people who have strayed from the path. We used to stigmatize people but there is no longer a real stigma against bastards.
Ideally, when an unmarried woman gives birth she would be offered a large cash payment, in exchange she and the child are sterilized. Likewise all children put up for adoption would be sterilized. We wouldn’t even have to stigmatize people if we simply tackled the problem this way. Everyone would be accepted and loved.
T
February 17, 2013 at 8:19 pm
Maybe your child will turn out to be a high-income, high-education person who avoids crime/drugs/violence/etc but for the vast majority of children born out of wedlock, life is not so rosy. Most children born out of wedlock have a harder time finishing highschool and obtaining a useful degree. They are also more likely to do drugs, end up in junvenile hall, use government welfare programs, and have out of wedlock children of their own. From a mathematical standpoint, on average, their expected value is less than 0. Therefore I am pro-choice because at least some of the fetuses of unmarried women will get aborted.
SC
February 17, 2013 at 8:29 pm
once i realized that the pro-life movement had in essence encouraged the scourge of single moms, i felt i had to start supporting legal, easy abortion despite the fact that i tend to think its at least a form of homicide (but short of murder). i heard justin bieber’s abject trashcan of a single mom on the mike gallagher (yech) talk radio show one morning, he was lionizing her for her decision to bring little justin to term, because hey! look how it turned out!! well that’s just great that justin got rich and famous, call me the day most of this single mom’s rugrats become rich and famous, let alone self sustaining and not absolute drains on the public coffers and maybe ill reconsider again
dana
February 17, 2013 at 1:55 pm
The right opposes abortion but also opposes welfare. They want to make the beta provider desirable again.
Conquistador
February 17, 2013 at 7:09 pm
yep, the few successful children of unmarried/divorced parents serve as hamster fuel to the many women (and some men) who choose to have a child out of wedlock or abandon their marriages. I really wish the mainstream would understand the concept of the rationalisation hamster (and yes, it can exist in men as well as more commonly in women). but then again, if society did understand what rationalisation hamsters were and could keep them in check, we wouldn’t have the problem of a 40% illegitimacy rate.
SC
February 17, 2013 at 8:33 pm
As I understand it, many (most?) of the women who have late-term abortions do so because they’ve found out that the fetuses have serious defects. Presumably they come from all social classes.
Peter
ironrailsironweights
February 17, 2013 at 1:59 pm
Even a BETTER reason to allow late-term abortions.
Lion of the Blogosphere
February 17, 2013 at 6:17 pm
Most of those babies would die anyway, so it’s just a matter of timing and sparing the mother a few months of misery/ uncertainty. The main viable ones getting wiped out have down syndrome. The rest have fatal trisomies and other issues not compatible with life.
islandmommy
February 17, 2013 at 6:44 pm
Agreed.
Peter
ironrailsironweights
February 17, 2013 at 8:04 pm
I don’t think that’s the case at all. I remember a professor in college saying that his social worker wife told him that the average poor woman “client” of hers didn’t even realize she was pregnant until she was 7 months in.
DaveinHackensack
February 17, 2013 at 8:20 pm
“Republicans who support states’ rights are hypocrites if they oppose these laws. They say abortion should be left to the states. So they should be happy that some states believe in liberal access to abortion.”
Republicans only support states rights when it is something that they already support.
Jay
February 17, 2013 at 2:01 pm
That’s because upper class liberal men hate, hate, HATE lower-class women and this post proves this tendency.
Stupid lower class Bristol Palin got pregnant ONCE (most of these unmarried pregnant chicks are Black/Hispanic btw) and hasn’t since. That’s because the ones who have more children are either lower to middle class unmarried mothers with cohabitation (some whites and a couple of Hispanics) or married high status Country Club women (virtually all white).
Liberal men hating on lower class women (Black and Hispanic, and a few times white) doesn’t work. You just get more of them wanting Big Daddy/Hubby Government for their kids and taking advantage of welfare.
Single mothers have 1-2 children.
Unmarried but with father present or married have +2 children.
Now tell who is smart about this?
tcvuy78
February 17, 2013 at 2:15 pm
Upper class liberal men really don’t give lower-class women much thought at all. Saying they “hate” them is ridiculous. Upper class liberal hate for the Palins was just the traditional hatred of the elite towards anyone who tries to rise above their station. The abortion debate is also driven by upper class liberal women, not men.
Peter the Shark
February 18, 2013 at 4:02 am
Republicans who support states’ rights are hypocrites if they oppose these laws. They say abortion should be left to the states. So they should be happy that some states believe in liberal access to abortion.
Uh, Republicans (or Democrats for that matter) in New York who oppose abortion are not hypocrites for opposing abortion in Albany as well as in DC.
acapulco fish
February 17, 2013 at 2:34 pm
Would you have felt the same way if your mother was a single mom? Also this brings up in my mind (what little there is of it) an important question, is there a human right to a mother and father? Natural rights collide with human thinking all the time and in this case it’s because you think we can’t afford another bastard in NY.
cesqy
February 17, 2013 at 2:56 pm
So if one of your ancestors was conceived by rape, than you shouldn’t oppose rape? And if one of your ancestors was only conceived to replace a sibling that died in childhood than you should be opposed to efforts to reduce child mortality?
This isn’t “Back to the Future” noone is going to go back in time and prevent you from being born.
Reynald
February 17, 2013 at 8:07 pm
So if one of your ancestors was conceived by rape, than you shouldn’t oppose rape?
No, but it means you should oppose abortions for the victims of rape.
Tarl
February 17, 2013 at 11:29 pm
I am so glad that my mother and father were smart enough to get married before I was conceived. If my mother got knocked up by some random guy who didn’t stick around in my life I would hate her for not giving me a nuclear family. Btw since I live in an UMC neighbourhood I don’t have any friends born out of wedlock. 80% of my friends’ parents are still married to each other. If i were the only one born out of wedlock I would be deeply embarrassed about it. So thank you Mom for providing me a good family!
SC
February 17, 2013 at 8:38 pm
A fair share of women having late term abortions have received poor prenatal diagnoses, so not all unmarried.
islandmommy
February 17, 2013 at 2:58 pm
Are you serious? Conservatives generally argue that:
1. The legal status of abortion should be decided on the state level.
2. Abortion should not be legal.
So social conservatives can be happy that NY is deciding the issue rather than the federal gov., while disagreeing with the decision itself. No hypocrisy.
redneck
February 17, 2013 at 3:17 pm
Pro-life conservatives think abortion is murder. If they could get the Supreme Court to ban it, they would.
Papa Smurf
February 17, 2013 at 7:18 pm
Yeah, that is right. It is also not hypocritical. Pro abortion advocates went about changing abortion laws in state houses before they got lucky and the Supreme court invented the “right” to abortion from some penumbra in the 14th amendment. Go read the 14th amendment. There is no way anyone could infer a right to abortion from that language. And indeed, Roe v. Wade decision doesn’t really even try to make a very good case that it does.
not too late
February 17, 2013 at 11:34 pm
I was shocked when I heard Andrew Cuomo proposing more late-term abortions in New York. it’s so far left, that I have never actually heard of a politician try to do this. Liberals oppose Republican restrictions on the issue, but actually proposing MORE abortions of viable fetuses is the most radical thing I have seen in a while. Very few support late term abortions, and it’s likely even unpopular in New York. And combined with his being the most anti-gun governor in the country and ramming through a redefinition of marriage, he’s killed any chance of becoming president. The attack ads write themselves.
Jack
February 17, 2013 at 3:24 pm
America is a far left country now where matriarchy reigns supreme.
Conquistador
February 17, 2013 at 7:12 pm
No. A left would advocate for workers, not welfare ho’s. The folks calling themselves left aren’t exactly left.
not too late
February 17, 2013 at 11:36 pm
49% of the country voted against Obama. add 2% to that and we win in 2016.
Jack
February 18, 2013 at 3:09 am
“Republicans who support states’ rights are hypocrites if they oppose these laws. They say abortion should be left to the states. So they should be happy that some states believe in liberal access to abortion.”
Fair enough, but Republicans would also say that states should be allowed to ban abortion if they want, which they’re currently not allowed to do.
Gilbert
February 17, 2013 at 3:30 pm
One point here.
Late, late abortions are quite dangerous. Generally, at 33 weeks, the safest thing for the mother is a C-section that takes 30 minutes and is done in a hospital. Elective abortions at 33 weeks basically are identical to giving birth except without the doctor and hospital and pain relief. The woman who died was induced into labor after her baby got a lethal injection at the abortion clinic. She then was given treatment to induce labor and sent to a hotel. If she had a serious medical condition, she would have been in a hospital with her own doctor or another but definitely not at an abortion clinic. They don’t take women with any risk factors. This choice was purely elective. There are so few doctors who do this because most women are not crazy enough to suffer that much or take that much risk. There is no epidural at the hotel. There is no emergency C-section to save the mother when she is at a hotel. If she had needed this abortion, she could have got it at her local hospital.
not too late
February 17, 2013 at 3:33 pm
I believe Cuomo’s legislation would allow these women to stay in hospital and be induced (with epidural if they so chose) in an obstetrical environment. The services available to women needing or wanting to terminate late term are inconsistent, and yes, some find themselves in less than stellar hands in abortion clinics. Ideally these women should be treated in L & D wards. (I say “ideally” in the sense of safety for the mother.)
islandmommy
February 17, 2013 at 6:47 pm
That is my point. They already are legal and available in New York. The service you describe is available. The fact is this woman did not qualify for any reason. It was purely elective. That is why she had to go that route. The woman was obviously stupid anyway because as soon as the abortionist gave her baby the lethal injection, she could have gone to any hospital of her choosing and got an epidural and regular safe treatment. No hospital would refuse service to a woman with a dead fetus who was in her condition. The would get sued and probably also face criminal penalties.
not too late
February 17, 2013 at 10:05 pm
Okay, I just reviewed what Cuomo is proposing. The woman still wouldn’t qualify even under Cuomo’s new version of the law. The NYTimes story is pretty much BS. The state of NY knows and keeps records of the fact that women are coming to NY for late term abortions, not the other way around. Just to be clear late term is after 20 weeks. This woman was three months past late term. Her kid was pretty much done. Having delivered two children, I can’t even begin to imagine how much physical pain she must have gone through before she died. It must have been hell. Induced abortion is extremely painful even in the earlier months. I can imagine what it would be like at 33 weeks.
not too late
February 18, 2013 at 8:49 pm
No, they could give the child up for adoption. People used to do this.
caroljm36
February 17, 2013 at 3:54 pm
But why does human control over the reproductive process have to be female control? Shouldnt we aim to have children that are both parents want and feel they can provide for?
Reynald
February 17, 2013 at 8:03 pm
One problem with encouraging late-term abortion, even if you think abortion itself is morally OK, is that it cheapens the value of human life in general. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that ghetto abortionists who perform late-term abortions are often the same onces who end up maiming their women patients. If you don’t care about an almost-baby, it’s not much of a stretch to not care about the welfare of an adult woman.
DaveinHackensack
February 17, 2013 at 8:29 pm
I’m in agreeance. Even if, for the sake of argument, I stipulated abortion was murder, I’d still be for it. Having a kid ruins more lives for more people than anything else.
DelFuego
February 17, 2013 at 9:24 pm
There you have it, folks, a Darwinian dead end outlook.
del fuego indeed
not too late
February 17, 2013 at 10:08 pm
He’s not exactly right but he’s not exactly wrong either, the vast majority of people in this world don’t care a whole lot for their children from the peasants in India selling off their girls to the darkies in the ghettos shaking their babies to death to the elite shunting them off to boarding schools, children are a burden for most people. Even the middle class drones I know with children, a good many of which are bastards, don’t really have the skills to raise healthy, well adjusted adults and don’t seem all that interested in trying to learn. Of course if anyone suggests that spanking their children isn’t a great behavior modification strategy they get all up in arms about that.
I used to be strongly against abortion, save the rare case of the kid developing a brain outside the skull and such, but as I grew older I took off my dark glasses and saw the pro-life movement as the totalitarian jerks they are. Of course the pro-death crowd isn’t anything to get excited about either. Abortion itself, as practiced in this country at least, is an intrinsic evil like meth or heroin, it is something that should be avoided at all costs, yet people continue to do meth and heroin that first time.
Most people are borderline animals, it’s probably to the better they don’t reproduce, it’s a shame we don’t force sterilization on the lower breeds any longer.
S_McCoy The Winged Lion of Doom
February 18, 2013 at 7:56 am
The only value most middle class women place on their children is the ability to use them as an excuse to get out of work, so the men can pick up the slack, and to stuff their face with birthday cake. Beyond that, most middle class women view their children as a hindrance to their partaying.
S_McCoy The Winged Lion of Doom
February 18, 2013 at 8:05 am
The only value most middle class men place in the female children is the sexual arousal they experience, thereby enabling them to have sex with their sow of a wife.
S_McCoy The Winged Lion of Doom
February 18, 2013 at 8:10 am
I appreciate McCoy’s candor, but for all the ballsiness of his comments here this in, in the end, a lot of sentimental adolescent hogwash.
So what if people shunt their kids off to boarding schools? That doesn’t make them monsters (and how many kids are we talking about anyway?). Life is complicated, n’est ce pas? Parents don’t have to be “perfect” in order to make family life tolerable and, at bottom, beautiful.
This critique amounts to a more literate version of Keanu Reeves’ “license to fish” spiel in Ron Howard’s “Parenthood”. Since we’re not all perfect, the species should just go extinct?
And while I agree with some of Camille Paglia’s notions about the incest taboo and claustrophobia in the nuclear family, this stuff about female children as aphrodisiacs for the patriarch is a thoughtless attempt to suit himself up as heartiste. Oh woe is me, we’d all be better off dead, McCoy, because parents aren’t innocently hugging their children every five minutes! What’s the matter, mommie and daddie didn’t serve you hot cocoa in bed every Christmas morn?
Lucius Somesuch
February 18, 2013 at 9:36 am
Oh joy, Here comes the Up With People Crowd.
S_McCoy The Winged Lion of Doom
February 18, 2013 at 11:20 am
What’d'you think you are, kid, Paul freaking Theroux?
Lucius Somesuch
February 18, 2013 at 3:45 pm
“Republicans who support states’ rights are hypocrites if they oppose these laws. They say abortion should be left to the states. So they should be happy that some states believe in liberal access to abortion.”
This is about the level of logic I would expect from Rachel Maddow. If you believe something should be a state issue, it in no way follows that you should support any decision a state makes. It just means you should not support the federal government forbidding it.
By the way, I am very pro-choice, and think the government should heavily subsidize birth control. But your argument is still ridiculous.
mike
February 18, 2013 at 2:07 am
“Republicans who support states’ rights are hypocrites if they oppose these laws. They say abortion should be left to the states. So they should be happy that some states believe in liberal access to abortion.”
This makes no sense. “States rights” implies a constitutional right to leglislate, not approval of any particular piece of legislation.
Fliff
February 18, 2013 at 2:40 am
Quote: “Republicans who support states’ rights are hypocrites if they oppose these laws. They say abortion should be left to the states. So they should be happy that some states believe in liberal access to abortion.”
Supporting abortion rights would only alienate social conservatives which would hurt the GOP. Saying that the Republicans should support legalized abortion makes as much sense as saying that they should support Hispanic immigration since both policies would be pandering to people who will never vote for the GOP.
diversityischaos
February 18, 2013 at 8:08 am
Go Cuomo go. Yay. A soul? You’re all kidding right? There is no soul-that’s a superstitious fantasy. We want abortion, it limits the amount of our wonderful human beings that we must be burdened with and suffer as a society. Hands off abortion, I’ve read that is has aborted some 50 million potential slack-jawed humanoids. Abortion is part of my holy trinity-Abortion-wars-state executions. Now if we could only get the number of people smoking to double, we’d really be in business.
And S. McCoy-most people are borderline animals? Good comment, but please tell me about this “borderline,” I was unaware of any.
P.S. And go ahead folks ride motorcycles without helmets too, that would be a help. In fact, ride motorcycle sans helmet while smoking and on your way to the latest war, that’s the ticket.
Chris Volkay
February 18, 2013 at 10:09 am
It would seem a lot of people get very upset at the idea of being deprived of large numbers of drones to feel superior to.
S_McCoy The Winged Lion of Truth
February 18, 2013 at 11:24 am
Lion is absolutely correct. Life begins when the legislature of a state says it begins. In one state life may begin at conception. In another it might not begin until two weeks after passage of the fetus through the birth canal. It is not a federal issue. If New York want to have late-term or even after-term abortion abortions it is of no concern to any other state.
ColRebSez
February 18, 2013 at 1:28 pm
Close to 50,000,000 abortions since 1973… so about half a million 135+ IQs down the drain. And that’s just the US. Even if you tweak the numbers for demographics, that’s a lot of smart people snuffed out.
islandmommy
February 18, 2013 at 6:08 pm
Islandmommy, is it your position that the population of those seeking abortions is purely equal across the IQ spectrum: that is that a person with a 135 IQ is just as likely to have an unwanted pregnancy and want an abortion as it a person with an 85 IQ?
I suspect you are basing your assumption on a faulty premise. I would guess that that 50,000,000 abortions has resulted in far less than 100,000 135+ IQs down the drain. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the number was more like 10,000.
ColRebSez
February 19, 2013 at 1:32 am
ColRebSez is correct, high IQ women very rarely become accidentally pregnant.
Lion of the Blogosphere
February 19, 2013 at 6:43 am
All other issues waived: what kind of loser has to wait past the first trimester (the point at which atheist Denmark, France, and Russia forbid further abortions, natch) to terminate an unwanted pregnancy?
Lucius, you have convinced me. Every woman who is too stupid and short-sighted to get an abortion fast after she has demonstrated the inability to handle taking a pill each day should have more kids. The state has a compelling interest in expanding the underclass cuz they has souls.
rob
February 19, 2013 at 12:45 pm