Lion of the Blogosphere

High proles

High Prole & Proud wrote the following excellent comment:

In the high prole world, a college education is essentially perceived as vocational school for white collar employment. When a college bound child of a high prole announces his choice of major, obviously vocational majors such as nursing, education, and business receive strong positive feedback while major choices with no obvious tie to a specific occupation such as philosophy almost always illicit a facial expression of puzzled scorn followed by the inevitable “what are you going to do with a degree in that?” question.

Lower tier colleges have picked up on this and now offer all kinds of whacky vocational sounding majors such as sports management, entrepreneurial leadership, music management, etc. This is a trap that only the dumber half of my demo falls for as the smarter half either knows better and avoids it on their own or their plumber father calls BS and twists their arm into majoring in business or nursing.

High proles are very big on catapulting their children into the middle class. High prole children have it beat into them from a young age to go to college (typically a former state normal school), get a vocational degree, get either a gov’t job or a job at a large company that’s perceived as stable, and then to go get a master’s degree because an MBA/M Ed./nursing masters means more $$$, even a crappy one from Capella university. Earning a masters and getting a gov’t job with a pension and an automatic pay bump for possessing said masters is every high prole parent’s ideal outcome for their children.

We’re nearly always told not to “do what dad does for a living.” One manifestation of this is that most labor unions and high prole fraternal organizations raise money for scholarships for the children of their members. A universal life’s goal for high prole parents is to be able to move to a town with “good schools.” In this context a good school is defined as one that is mostly white and with mostly middle class/high prole students. Strongly upper middle districts are avoided due to closely held insecurities (i.e.”I hear those parents in uppermiddleville are snooty and competitive jerkoffs. I’m never moving there”) as are middle and low prole districts no matter how white they are (i.e. “bob, I know you can get a giant house in trailertrashville, but what about the schools? Billy moved there and after his daughter got to the high school she got pregnant and hooked on drugs”).

This is the way in which my demo “strives.”

We strive and discourage our offspring from following in our footsteps because contrary to popular belief amongst this blog’s readership, many high prole jobs suck.

Yes, they pay well, but it’s almost always a Faustian bargain. The linemen that work for the power company are one mistake away from death everyday and work crazy hours. Cops spend all day dealing with pieces of shit. Welders inhale toxic fumes all day and endure shitty working conditions. Plumbers spend their whole careers eyeball to eyeball with feces, grease traps, and whatever else ends up going down the drain. Construction guys risk death and wear their bodies down on the job, when their not out of work. Construction guys always seen to be making a king’s ransom or cashing out their retirement plan just to pay the bills. Stability doesn’t exist.

This is the current dilemma facing my demo; a brain drain. The kids end up as middles, the dumb ones get jobs through family connections, and the mid proles that manage to ascend are by and large barely competent. For a cab driver, getting a job operating a boiler at a hospital is like an average middle class kid getting hired at Goldman. The simple act of getting to the entry level of competence took all of their talents, effort and ability. There’s nothing left in the tank for them to advance. The IQ just isn’t there.

That’s why nobody seems to be able to find a good welder. The ex cab drivers aren’t capable and the children of the current welders are all studying to be cubicle slaves at Rutgers.

ON FUTURE NAM HIGH PROLES: Hispanics are slowly infiltrating the high prole ranks and I’ve met plenty of competent ones over the years. As the current crop of high proles dies off and only their dolt children replace them, the top end of the Hispanic demo will slowly overtake them.

So what we learn from this is:

  • High-prole blue-collar jobs suck.
  • High proles aspire to white-collar jobs that require college degrees, such as working for the government.
  • When high proles attend college, they major in the sort of vocational subjects that aren’t taught at Harvard. High proles are clueless about why anyone would want to study a subject that has no direct correlation with getting a job.
  • High proles worry about not falling down to the class below them, but have no desire to rise to the class above them, or even much understanding of that class. In this, high proles are like all other classes.
  • Hispanics are taking over high-prole blue-collar jobs.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

June 8, 2013 at EDT am

Posted in Proles

134 Responses

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  1. This is very very true.

    Russ

    June 8, 2013 at EDT am

  2. Interesting post. Something tells me the social attributes of the high prole and their aspirations are much different in a place like Germany or Scandinavia (OECD countries with much lower Gini Coefficients post-taxes/transfers).

    uatu

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • Much lower Ginis and much greater mobility in income. The US has the most rigid class structure in the developed world. Yet almost all Americans believe the opposite.

      Nicolai Yezhov

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • If the standard deviations are lower, it is easy to see why there would be greater mobility in income percentile wise. For example, if a worker in the US gets a 10,000 dollar raise, he would not move up as much as German worker that gets a 10,000 dollar raise.

        de Broglie

        June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • You are one of those Americans apparently. The US must be unique in the history of the world in having a class system which almost every citizen denies.

        Despite the Revolution the US is more like the UK than even Australia or Canada which also have high inequality under the sway of Anglo-Saxon economics.

        Nicolai Yezhov

        June 9, 2013 at EDT am

      • Basically Scandinavia is what the Us claims to be and what it was in the 50s when the top marginal rate was 90%. Hmmmm. Eisenhower was a Communist!

        Nicolai Yezhov

        June 9, 2013 at EDT am

      • Here’s something interesting from Brookings showing that Americans have been fooled.

        http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/reports/2008/2/economic%20mobility%20sawhill/02_economic_mobility_sawhill_ch3.pdf

        Of course in my case it’s been down hill with each generation since my great great grandfather.

        Nicolai Yezhov

        June 9, 2013 at EDT am

      • The Gini is computed based on wealth and income, and the Europeans don’t report their income and wealth big time… it’s just the status quo there. Only Americans pay their taxes. IRS is doing a very good job compared to it’s counterparts in the rest of the developed world. (this has been evidenced many times, but particularly with the off shore leaks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offshore_leaks) Because of this reporting problem, the Ginis are useless.

        This makes perfect sense: why the fuck would you pay the super high taxes in say France, where taxes for some people add up to over 100% of income (which is not that hard since they also have wealth tax) http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/05/21/french-tax-soars-over-100/ Moreover, high taxes start at the first Euro, with VAT (20%) paid by everybody, and the lowest income bracket being very high. This teaches even the poor and the middle class to avoid paying taxes. And they do it well.

        On the other hand, socially speaking, I can tell you that Western Europe is much more xenophobe and socially immobile than US. Not even close.

        Zack

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • “On the other hand, socially speaking, I can tell you that Western Europe is much more xenophobe and socially immobile than US. Not even close”.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_R%C3%B6sler

        If Western Europe is so xenophobic and socially immobile, then why do they let this Asian guy become one of theirs in Germany, that no Anglophone nation would even think in a million years. I’m no fan of Asian elites in White societies, but I find it rather odd how he attains one of the highest position in Germany, relatively speaking where Germans do not import Asians like we do.

        JS

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_R%C3%B6sler

        If Western Europe is so xenophobic and socially immobile, then why do they let this Asian guy become one of theirs in Germany, that no Anglophone nation would even think in a million years. I’m no fan of Asian elites in White societies, but I find it rather odd how he attains one of the highest position in Germany, relatively speaking where Germans do not import Asians like we do.”

        Yes, and we have a black president — so what? It’s all because of white guilt. Germany has the most strict anti-extremists laws (because of that little thing called the WW 2) — it doesn’t mean they are the most welcoming people. Do you know how gypsies get treated in Europe? You think France is such a socialist paradise, but then, how do they deal with gypsies?

        Business is also much harder in Europe (more regulations, more people to bribe, more barriers at local level, more discrimination in the consumer base) Regulations, high barriers, and high taxes create a more socially stable system, and by this I mean that people in power stay in power, because they can do rent-seeking and extract wealth from the newcomers who try to produce wealth. The newcomers don’t have the social circle to do rent-seeking, so they have to create something new.

        Zack

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • “Despite the Revolution the US is more like the UK than even Australia or Canada which also have high inequality under the sway of Anglo-Saxon economics”.

        Anglophone nations are basically the most socially dysfunctional of all Western countries.

        It’s interesting how the PUA movement has thrived in all English Speaking nations, whereas a concept such as this would never get a hold in places such as Spain or Italy.

        JS

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Whatever Zack. If Germany or Italy or France were run like the US how much poorer would it be?

        The US is the third most populous country in the world but still among the least densely populated. Land, habitable, arable land is its greatest resource.

        Nicolai Yezhov

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • “The US is the third most populous country in the world but still among the least densely populated. Land, habitable, arable land is its greatest resource.”

        The denser the population the higher the economic activity. Look at Belgium: most dense country in Europe population-wise, and highest GDP per capita. There’s an advantage that comes with people being close by — you need to travel less, ideas get exchanged faster, etc

        Zack

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • @JS

        This Vietnamese clown is probably gonna be the Obama of Germany, the final insult to a people.

        colmainen

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Nicolai Yezhov wrote: “Basically Scandinavia is what the Us claims to be and what it was in the 50s when the top marginal rate was 90%. Hmmmm. Eisenhower was a Communist!”

        No, no , no. Americans never actually paid 90% rates. The top-rate was about 40%. Today, 39.6%:

        http://almostclassical.blogspot.com/2011/03/90-tax-rate-myth.html
        “When there was a 94% top rate in 1944-45, there were so many deductions and exclusions that the taxable income was not comparable to someone’s entire income. First, the top rate started at $200,000, which today is equal to $2,413,059.90 — so the maximum EMTR would apply only to incomes of $2.5 million. But, that’s still taxable income, not earned income.

        In 1944, you could deduct business meals, all business travel, all forms of interest payments, and much more. You could even deduct spousal travel expenses on a business trip! (Why travel alone?) Companies could also “loan” or “provide” almost anything to an employee, from an apartment to standard benefits. It was possible to shelter tens of thousands of dollars from taxable income. Three-martini lunches and expense accounts were important realities, skewing tax calculations.

        As a result of deductions and exclusions, even the theoretical maximum Real Rate of taxation at 60% in 1944 overstates taxation dramatically. The reality? On earned income, the richest U.S. taxpayers paid close to 40 percent of their earned incomes in taxes in 1944. We simply didn’t count much of the compensation as taxable income.”

        aki (@DSGNTD_PLYR)

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Thanks for the insight, but it is still the case that inequality in 20th century America was least from 1950 to 1975. The US really was close to a classless society like Scandinavia today. The last 38 years have been a disaster. If it isn’t changes in the tax code what is it? Public schools have fallen into the toilet and the cost of college tuition has gone through the roof. One could buy a house in some areas for the tuition at a good B-school.

        Nicolai Yezhov

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • “Thanks for the insight, but it is still the case that inequality in 20th century America was least from 1950 to 1975. The US really was close to a classless society like Scandinavia today. The last 38 years have been a disaster. If it isn’t changes in the tax code what is it? Public schools have fallen into the toilet and the cost of college tuition has gone through the roof. One could buy a house in some areas for the tuition at a good B-school.”

        If you look at wealth inequality (as opposed to income inequality), nothing changed for 200-300 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth

        a few major things have changed:

        1. women entered the work force, and put pressure on certain goods such as real estate. All of the sudden 2 incomes are required, and it’s much easier to go bankrupt, etc. This has many ramifications. Elizabeth Warren has a book and a good talk on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A

        2. beginning with the 90’s the computer revolution affected most of the creative jobs at much faster pace than the other jobs, and now the creatives can produce more. Basically, there’s a race for brain/talent/cognitive ability that’s more important now than in the 70’s.

        3. Tax reform act of 1986 that increased transparency on wealth: before people would take advantage of low corporate taxes and high income taxes by incorporating themselves 🙂 The rich people would be “poor” on paper but their companies would hold the wealth.

        Zack

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • “This Vietnamese clown is probably gonna be the Obama of Germany, the final insult to a people”.

        Yes, although I have to say he’s a lot smarter than Obama, because he’s a doctor by training. His children would be part German because of his wife. The Vietnamese are proud him of because he’s another non-White who has successfully infiltrated into a White nation. It would be better that successful non-Whites return to their 3rd world ancestral homelands and rebuild them.

        JS

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

  3. And the ones going for MBAs at Harvard or Wharton, medical (doesn’t matter where), law at Ivy Leagues, et al, aren’t pursuing the “vocational” subjects at those schools? Harvard, et al, teach plenty of vocational subjects. In your other post you note that fewer students are studying humanities or other “non vocational” subjects. If they aren’t, then by definition they are moving into “vocational” studies.

    Michael

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • This is wrong. The useless degrees are earned mostly by kids whose parents were too stupid to know better. The fraction where it doesn’t matter there’s a job waiting for you at Daddy’s company is very small. STEMers tend to be more physically attractive.

      Nicolai Yezhov

      June 9, 2013 at EDT am

    • Professional school is not the same as undergrad school.

      Off the top of my head, the only high status non-professional grad school is getting an MPhil at one of the Oxbridge schools.

      Renault

      June 11, 2013 at EDT pm

  4. So the practical options for stable employment for the middle classes and below are jobs in healthcare or low-wage service jobs. Then there are those smart bloggers who blog about QUITTING YOUR JOB and becoming a self-actualized blogger or something like that. These self-actualized bloggers who encourage others to quit their jobs to find their true calling fail to mention they themselves are likely smarter than 98% of the population, got really lucky, and are very socialable and charismatic in person and online and know how to use social media to its full potential. They also likely have a trust fund or wealthy family members to help them if they fall from their self-employment endeavors.

    The best way for a high-prole to succeed is to maximize their social skills and charisma and network like crazy. Everything else is secondary.

    bobo

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

  5. Ya, I would be very curious what low proles are like in Sweden.

    tractal

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • There’s an old American car subculture there. For jobs there is the government and resource extraction.

      Norway has so much oil money the natives don’t have to work, as in Saudi Arabia, and many don’t. That their employment rate is much higher than the gulf states, and they are not known for lavish luxury spending, speaks well of them.

      Zoink

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Yes. Scandinavian socialism has always been a finger in the eye of Randians and free market fundamentalists.

        Obviously what works is a talented and homogeneous population. Whatever the economic system such countries will do well. In the early 80s E Germany had a higher per capita GDP than many other western countries.

        Nicolai Yezhov

        June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • @Nikolai

        But the NAMs are also targetting Scandinavia, so it will be much less admirable in the future.

        colmainen

        June 9, 2013 at EDT am

      • Scandinavian Socialism workers because Scandinavia is full of Scandinavians. See, Minnesota. How’s the welfare state working in Detroit? Greece?

        aki (@DSGNTD_PLYR)

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • That’s a good point. Here’s another: the difference between Sweden and US with respect to immigrants is that in US the immigrants are welcomed with most of their culture, while in Sweden they are welcomed but they have to become Swedes. This is why the middle-eastern immigrants have big problems getting assimilated in Sweden — because they are not really welcomed together with their culture.

        Zack

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • N Korea is an exception, but N Korea had a higher GDP per capita than S Korea up until 1970.

        Nicolai Yezhov

        June 11, 2013 at EDT pm

  6. I used to actually do plumbing and other blue collar jobs, unlike most of the other people posting on here. Plumbers don’t “spend their whole careers eyeball to eyeball with feces”. The majority of their work is in new construction: installing pipe, boilers, radiators, heaters, etc. There are the occasional dirty jobs, but it’s not so bad overall.

    Working in the trades is a good decision for some men, and the fact that young people are being pushed away from it makes it a better one. The trades are as resistant to outsourcing and automation as anything else, and the pay isn’t bad. For a lot of kids, doing physical work beats sitting in a quiet office until they want to go nuts, Fight Club style. Once they’ve been doing it for years the thrill is gone, but if they have any initiative they can work up to running the business or managing jobs, and leave the miserable stuff to the young guys.

    There are other satisfying aspects to the work. After doing it for a few years, I pretty much know how to build a house myself, and I can fix most things, so I don’t have to be emasculated by calling for help for a clogged toilet or some other stupid problem. LOTB would probably say that knowing how to fix things is prole, but if it is then I don’t want to be upper class.

    anon1

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • If I could do everything over, I would marry a man who could fix things.

      islandmommy

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • Physical labor sounds great when you’re 18 and bored as hell from sitting at a desk in school all day for the past 13 years. It’s no so great when your back and knees are fucked by age 45 (probably sooner). Not everyone can be the manager, so what’s left for the rest?

      Anonymous

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • Yes. The high prole has a much easier time starting a business and thus becoming a petit bourgeois than the cube creature. The single family home builder/developer is a common starting point for many of the very rich.

      Nicolai Yezhov

      June 9, 2013 at EDT am

    • “LOTB would probably say that knowing how to fix things is prole, but if it is then I don’t want to be upper class.”

      this.

      Prole

      June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Me neither. Probably LotB would think my whole town is prole, maybe the whole of Canada.

        Melykin

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Is every single citizen of Canada prole? I’m not sure, it’s certainly a question that’s worth looking into.

        Robert

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

  7. This is all very true, but I’ll point out one thing. A lot of high prole drain is driven by fear. My Dad, in his last year before retirement a few years back, made $80,000 + great health benefits at his stable (20+ years) hard labor high prole job. It was really only in the frequent years when he was sick that we struggled. The years he was healthy were fine. If such a deal existed ($80k a year, good benefits, security, not living in a high COL city, not having to pay for college) I could easily see myself doing it. Waking up at 3am to do hard labor blows, but so does sitting through white collar bullshit.

    The problem of course is that new high proles aren’t getting the same deal. When the union got busted they entered into a two tier wage structure. The old guys got to ride out under the old deal the last few years till retirement. The new guys now make something like 40k/year and have no health benefits. I doubt they will have the same stability either. Of course nobody would want to sign up for that deal if they could be white collar.

    My Dad encouraged me to not follow in his footsteps not so much because his current deal was so bad, but because he could see down the line how it was going to get worse.

    asdf

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • The trouble is that between outsourcing and immigration everything is getting worse. I have a secure job teaching at a university but I worry about the prospects for my son who is almost finished a PhD. A lot of the teaching jobs now are part time , temporary and pay next to nothing.

      Melykin

      June 9, 2013 at EDT am

  8. There are lots of cop groupies. How many computer-programmer groupies are there? Nine times out of 10, a cop will attract hotter women and more women. If you have the stones to confront strangers daily and maintain your command frame at all times, then you are going to get some play, especially in a country like the US that surrounds its cops with mystique and iconic pop-culture references.

    High proles LOVE the man points that their job gives them. High proles banter with each other at work, have camaraderie, don’t have to meekly obey some pointy-headed boss who says, “You are a professional, so I expect you work for free whenever I need you.”

    I read the anonymous annual morale survey results from a large unionized company I work with (60% blue-collar, 40% office worker). The blue-collar guys are very proud of the fact that they are “outdoor people.” They are also more likely to hunt and fish and have that “country boy can survive” swagger. They truly believe it makes them morally superior to those who “sit behind a desk” and most of them would go crazy trying to do sterile, androgynous symbol manipulation all day.

    They have a sense of mostly benign macho self-esteem and entitlement (stuff like parking in handicapped spaces for their convenience, stopping their company vehicle in front of their personal truck and making transfers for unclear reasons, taking long breaks while wearing the uniform) that the educated, considerate office betas never attain.

    The union guys get guaranteed annual raises from their company while the office betas have to compete with each other for some token arbitrarily allotted amount.

    Remember hi-lo vs. middle. Management (hi) never worries about the lovable blue-collar muscle who WRITE IN ALL CAPS (lo) potentially angling for their jobs. The real threat, the ones who have to be humiliated in little ways again and again, are the people who could easily be doing their jobs, the white-collar staffers (middle).

    A high prole who can avoid obvious giveaways like a goatee or chewing tobacco can tap into America’s cultural affinities (which are not necessarily shared around the world) for DIY, physical courage and working with your hands.

    Most American MEN, even professional guys, would be proud of their son becoming a cop if he seemed somewhat masculine and courageous growing up. If a boy is not getting encouragement to pursue this job, it is going to be because Dad isn’t around, and/or he has a neurotic CopterMom who goes “eek” everytime the news sensationalizes some threat or other.

    Yes, to enjoy these high-prole jobs you need a decent amount of intelligence and a good quantity of TESTOSTERONE. And we all know what is happening to testosterone levels in the Western world. More toxins in the environment and smaller families — so less guys with, say, two older brothers to benefit from an androgen-soaked womb.

    ATC

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • CAPS are prole; italics are middle to upper class. I sparingly use contractions and exclamations in my writing if the entry is more than 100 words and is characterized by complex, multi-clause sentences, but my own immediate thoughts often have contractions.

      Black_Rose

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • I think I read somewhere that people with Asperger’s are less likely to use contractions. Spock never uses contractions, if memory serves. Women are more likely to use emotive words and emoticons than are men, in writing. There are specialized investigators who can determine the gender of a typist based on an email.

        islandmommy

        June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • 1. caps are prole
        2. italics and multi-clause sentences are middle-class to upper middle-class (ie, pretentious)
        3. conciseness, clarity and expressing nuances is upper middle class to upper (prep school and liberal college)
        4. emoticons are for the young

        Zack

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • REALLY? ^- -^. Are you sure about that, or are you just making stuff up?

        Melykin

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

    • You describe a lot of positive characteristics of blue coller workers, but the bit about parking in handicap spots seems out of place. Only jerks park in handicap spots, unless they are actually handicapped .

      Melykin

      June 9, 2013 at EDT am

    • High proles LOVE the man points that their job gives them. High proles banter with each other at work, have camaraderie…

      The blue-collar guys are very proud of the fact that they are “outdoor people.” They are also more likely to hunt and fish and have that “country boy can survive” swagger. They truly believe it makes them morally superior to those who “sit behind a desk” and most of them would go crazy trying to do sterile, androgynous symbol manipulation all day.

      &c &c

      Yes, you are exactly right – this is one of the many reasons I HATED the transition from my prole upbringing to a white-collar professional environment, and still hate socializing with other “professionals”. Throughout training my predominate thought regarding my peers and supervisors was, “Where’s your self-respect, folks?”

      Samson J.

      June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

  9. So what counts as elite prole? Famous NASCAR driver?

    The Undiscovered Jew

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • Power company linemen and oil rig workers would make around $250,000 a year with full benefits if they worked standard 2000 hour work years.

      Zoink

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • The elite prole is the prole who maintains his prole interests and values while making enough money for his family (most elite proles are married with kids) to live in a predominately middle class neighborhood that’s sprinkled with people who border on upper middle class. The elite prole is stuck in class limbo. The proles he’s moved away from resent him and his new neighbors typically don’t respect him and think of him as a lucky dullard. Elite white proles will sometimes be treated like IWSBs by their social betters, but this is rare.

      Robert

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • “class limbo” – great term for what I’ve mentally been calling “class dissonance”. Glad to see you mention it, because it’s a favourite topic of mine, but one that no one ever seems really to care about.

        Samson J.

        June 12, 2013 at EDT pm

  10. This piece makes some good points, but also misses the mark quite a bit. It exaggerates the danger of many jobs in the skilled trades. Occupational deaths and even serious injuries are pretty rare these days, and most of those which do occur are in vehicle crashes and therefore not really job-related except insofar as the job in question required a great deal of driving. In any event, many people, especially men, do not necessarily shy away from risks. And saying that construction work tends to be feast-or-famine is like saying that the sun rises in the east. It’s always been that way, and more to the point it’s a tradeoff that millions of people have always been willing to accept.

    As far as fake “vocational” majors are concerned, my reasoned guess is that anyone with an I.Q. score in excess of 90 can figure out the difference between real vocational majors like engineering technology or occupational therapy, and garbage like sports management and entrepreneurial leadership.

    Peter

    ironrailsironweights

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • Fake vocational schools, from online scams, to “x-ray technician” and “medical billing” programs to fourth-tier law schools that produce 1 employed lawyer per 100 graduates, is too large and too fast-growing an industry to only be exploiting IQ<90 people.

      The local free rag has, no exaggeration, six different schools promoting "x-ray technician" and "medical billing." These are real middle-class jobs, but the open positions per year are very small.

      Zoink

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • I would suppose they would be exploiting lower class people who are socially naive with an IQ between 90-100. Generally people in that IQ range attend a college (community or a low-tier four year) with an easy major.

        Black_Rose

        June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

  11. Hispanics are slowly infiltrating the high prole ranks and I’ve met plenty of competent ones over the years.

    Second generation Hispanics tend to sink to black ghetto norms, not high prole.

    The Undiscovered Jew

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • But wouldn’t the influence of the “Cathedral” allow Hispanics (or NAMs) above some competence threshold allow them to acquire relatively decent high-prole jobs at the expense of native whites? Hispanics may have an average IQ of 91, but in that intelligence distribution some of them have enough intelligence to perform adequately in high prole professions. Moreover, when controlling for “g”, Hispanics are well behaved, so they have the requisite social attitudes for a high-prole existence.

      Black_Rose

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Roofing is one trade that i can see a takeover by hispanics here in nyc. Now the boss is an older white who limits his clambering rooftop to doing estimates, but the grunt work is done by a rather stolid, fearless even team of competent mexicans. Just watching theses guys work on my own roof recently was hard to watch-these men simply cannot afford to have a bad day whether or not they,re sick or hungover.

        I,ve never seen a white or black roofing crew, the future of the trade belongs to hispanics with good english skills and a decent head for business. I cant see future white competition for this miserable job.

        newyorker

        June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Now the boss is an older white who limits his clambering rooftop to doing estimates, but the grunt work is done by a rather stolid, fearless even team of competent mexicans.

        The hard working blue collar Hispanics are all first generation. The second & third generation Mestizos and Amerindians (as opposed to mulatto Hispanics) in California drift off towards black habits of crime, drug abuse, school failure, and out of wedlock pregnancy. But, granted they never become as dysfunctional as blacks.

        The perception many Northeastern commenters here hold about the work habits of Hispanics shows the the Northeast is 20 years behind in its perception of non-Caribbean Hispanics. 20-30 years ago, Californians who aren’t in the top 0.1% had similar views but they lost those illusions after dealing with the consequences of the failed second and third generation Latinos.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • How many of those roofers are second and third generation Latinos?

        The Undiscovered Jew

        June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Hispanics may have an average IQ of 91, but in that intelligence distribution some of them have enough intelligence to perform adequately in high prole professions.

        Keep in mind I’m talking about the most skilled blue collar professions like advanced pipe welding. For these positions you’d want a hard working blue collar worker with high visuospatial intelligence and an IQ in the 90-110 range. Since Hispanic IQ is 88-90, a majority of Hispanics don’t make the IQ cutoff for those positions whereas there are many more white men in the 90-110 range because the white average is 100.

        If there are Hispanics in skilled blue collar work then they are probably the Spaniard or near Spaniard ethnically. About 15% of Hispanic Americans are Spaniard, ~20% if you exclude illegal immigrants.

        Look at Senate candidate Gabriel Gomez. He looks like he’s at least 95% Spaniard and was also a Navy SEAL, a job that requires advanced blue collar skills that Mestizos and Amerindians don’t have. I suspect that special ops forces Hispanics tend to be white or whiter Mestizos.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • True, few if any are 2nd and beyond generation. Nyc did nit have many mexicans until about 20 years ago. With any luck, the immmigrants’ children will be fed a steady diet of horror stories about the shithole their elders came from that will keep them on the straight and narrow. I fear you are right with many of them,hopefully some will escape this fate.

        newyorker

        June 9, 2013 at EDT am

      • With any luck, the immmigrants’ children will be fed a steady diet of horror stories about the shithole their elders came from that will keep them on the straight and narrow. I fear you are right with many of them,hopefully some will escape this fate.

        You only need to look at second & third generation California Latinos to see that the Hispanics will be failures. And they will fail because their genetically inherited cognitive traits are incompatible with being a citizen in a first world social environment.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • “You only need to look at second & third generation California Latinos to see that the Hispanics will be failures. And they will fail because their genetically inherited cognitive traits are incompatible with being a citizen in a first world social environment”.

        The Mexicans in the Northeast will be better off than their Californian counterparts. Immigrants who travel longer distances for opportunities tend to invest in themselves more than those of shorter distances.

        “But, granted they never become as dysfunctional as blacks”.

        No group of people are as dysfunctional and lazy as Black Americans.

        JS

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

    • No, even the poorest hispanic areas are far better than poor black areas. Compare Santa Ana, CA with Camden, NJ for example. The typical mexican immigrant is about 35% white and 65% indian, and a fair number are majority white. The hispanic lower-class resembles the white lower class much more than the black lower class.

      Zoink

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • I agree that it’s much much safer to be in a poor Hispanic (non-mulatto) neighborhood than a poor black neighborhood.

      • When I speak badly of Hispanics, it’s really the Puerto Ricans and Dominicans of the Northeast and places such as Chicago, who are the most troublesome. The liberals are able to control them (with the exception of Cubans) as they do with Blacks, whereas Mexicans would embrace conservative values.

        Just Speculating

        June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • Yes, on average. Hispanics are between whites and blacks but closer towards the black end. They also work harder than blacks. It is easy to see how the top portion of the Hispanics would compete for high prole positions.

      de Broglie

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

  12. They have a sense of mostly benign macho self-esteem and entitlement (stuff like parking in handicapped spaces

    The reason this works is because cops treat blue-collars as part of the club. What are the odds that I would have never seen a traffic stop on a macho pickup truck? But in 30 yrs. of driving, I haven’t.

    smead jolley

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • Interesting insight…they do seem to prefer cars and SUVs now that you mention it.

      ATC

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

  13. DISH Network has a series commercials featuring Boston high-proles. This one is representative:

    They seem to hit many of the main stereotypes: accents, wardrobe and house decor, overweight husband watching hockey, multi-generational household, the entire the family lounging in recliners to watch television (individually, to boot), family members yelling to one another at the top of their lungs across the house, and an adult who hollers through the bathroom door while taking a shit “Shaddup. I’m tryin’ to watch TV.”

    Breaks in character include stocked bookshelves and the husband muting the television when his wife speaks to him.

    anon

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • How does one ascend into the next class without a “vocational” degree. Surely English literature won’t help a lowly prole earn big money. According to the lion STEMS are dead….so chemist or engineer can’t go big. Sound like the only way to do it is being born with a high IQ and having the right parents.

      What this post fails to mention is the upper class is protecting itself. Not everyone can be rich.

      alsnowalpha

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • That’s exactly the point of this blog, and why I do not regret watching Pokemon episodes and baseball games and surfing the Internet in college. I didn’t go to an Ivy or any school that HBDosphere would respect, so I just abandoned my dreams of being a respected principal investigator and said “fuck it” to my coursework except when I wanted to get the class high on a test… perhaps I have beaten some 1400s in those classes (about 2% of the students at my undergrad); only that would make the “accomplishment” significant to me.

        Black_Rose

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

    • Boston proles speak in a tone that is eerily similar to those from the NYC area, with slight differences in vowel pronunciations and that notorious “aaah” stretching of Bostonians.

      JS

      June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

      • If you watch the Boston Bombing footage again, at the beginning of 0:29, you can hear the guy say “it’s f*cked up ova hear”, which is a Boston prole accent that is almost indistinguishable from the NY one.

        JS

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

  14. Great post. I’m from the striving prole demo too. This guy really nailed it.

    Daniel

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

  15. I admire what high proles do, but I could never work with them without getting sick.

    Nicolai Yezhov

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

  16. “ON FUTURE NAM HIGH PROLES: Hispanics are slowly infiltrating the high prole ranks and I’ve met plenty of competent ones over the years. As the current crop of high proles dies off and only their dolt children replace them, the top end of the Hispanic demo will slowly overtake them.”

    Hispanics are quickly infiltrating the high prole ranks in places like California because whites and Asians in high-cost, liberal areas all want to do either white-collar work or “creative” type work, and blacks in liberal areas prefer to be on welfare or “hustling.” Hell, in California it is hard to find a someone who works in prole jobs who isn’t Hispanic simply because Hispanics have those jobs cornered. A lot of prole whites who used to live in California left because they couldn’t afford to live in a neighborhood with “good schools.” It really doesn’t have anything to do with competence…it is just that in places like California, Hispanics make up an overwhelming majority of the prole class, so they will make a majority of the people working in prole jobs, whether they be high prole jobs or low prole jobs.

    Jay

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • In PDX the grocery clerks are all white. In LA at Ralph’s they’re all Latinos. In Simi Valley they’re still all Latinos but white Latinos.

      Nicolai Yezhov

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • What is “hustling” exactly?

      AE

      June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Hustling = working in the black market (i.e., selling drugs, stealing, prostitution, etc.)

        Jay

        June 9, 2013 at EDT am

      • When blacks say “hustling” it usually means selling drugs but it can be used more broadly and refer to the illegal street sale of other things, like DVDs or clothes.

        Robert

        June 9, 2013 at EDT am

      • Re hustling, I’ve read there are casual quasi-prostitution relationships common in black communities where gifts and money are exchanged for sex, but not in the clear cut manner of a normal prostitution “purchase.” I guess more of a sugar daddy/ mommy situation. These types of arrangements are credited for high HIV rates in the south among blacks.

        islandmommy

        June 9, 2013 at EDT am

      • @ Jay and Robert

        Thanks for the clarification. Perhaps I should consult with some blacks to learn the “art of the hustle” the next time I wish to sale some items on eBay.

        AE

        June 9, 2013 at EDT am

  17. Donald Trump: ‘Blacks, Hispanics commit most violent crime’

    http://www.digitalspy.com/ celebrity/ news/ a487260/ donald-trump-blacks-hispanics-commit-most-violent-crime.html

    The Undiscovered Jew

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

  18. The Undiscovered Jew

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

  19. See, to me prole vs SWPL is a holistic thing, and SWPL is distinct from bobo, the latter of which you’re mostly born into. Fake pseudo-Indian spirituality? Foodie? Bunch of Apple products? Well groomed, reasonably fit, well spoken? SWPL, not bobo, not prole, profession irrelevant. Work at Goldman, no trust fund, spend everything you make? Maybe SWPL, but definitely not bobo and the last part is distinctly prole. On that note, both excessive spending and excessive saving are prole behaviors, one is just better for you.

    On that note, some vocational studies will be very unlikely to lead to bobo-hood, but could potentially lead to SWPLdom. I’m an accountant, and I’ll tell you from experience that the big four people typically sit much closer to SWPLdom than the people at the little local firms. I met a managing partner at a smaller firm once and all I could think was ‘I don’t care if you make $400k a year, you’re still prole as all hell.’

    cannibal

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • ^^The truth of this anecdote reveals how easy it is in these conversations to forget the mark. Class is mostly cultural, not vocational. Although, within 2-3 generations, vocation (up or down the hierarchy) will almost certainly work to affect class values (and child vocation).

      I believe that culture ultimately begins the cycle and that it isn’t a loop with indeterminate origin (ie: vocation and culture being indistinguishable as the cause). To illustrate, an intelligent plumber with middle-upper to upper class values can likely raise his kid to be on a track to become a medical doctor with the same class values and therefore the ability to effectively blend in with that class, if he wishes to do so. However, a prole accountant who makes $400k is likely to have children who, lest they are trained in the family business, will not proceed to enter and succeed in a middle-upper or upper class profession (not that accounting is seen to be upper class). High prole to middle class is likely what they will realize for themselves, depending on the school that they attended and how relatively functional the parents were at raising them.

      Tom

      June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • All acountants are proles, unless they have advanced degrees, and most of them do not. I’m not talking about getting a CPA.

        JS

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

  20. Here is an amazing story, penniless jewish refugee emigrates to australia becomes billionaire and adopts local girl. Local girl cannot overcome her background and displays nearly every “prole” characteristic despite inheritance.

    http://www.news.com.au/national-news/nsw-act/westfield-heiress-betty-saunders-klimenkos-journey-from-orphanage-to-a-life-of-luxury/story-fnii5s3x-1226660579017

    Chris

    June 8, 2013 at EDT pm

    • She doesn’t mention her children from her first marriage and only discusses her husband. Another round of lawsuits will be waiting for her prole progeny.

      colmainen

      June 9, 2013 at EDT am

    • She doesn’t act any more prole than a lot of other heiresses. She actually turned out fairly well.

      But here’s the money quote.

      “I get asked for money every day and it gives me the s … . – everyone thinks they have an idea I have never heard of and they all want something. It makes it hard to have friends.”

      That’s what I said in a previous post. TOOS avoid regulars because people are always buzzing around like pecker gnats asking for something.

      destructure

      June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • She has purple hair and is covered in tattoos in middle age. Granted, I’m not aware that she has a sex tape, but still, that’s not more prole than most other heiresses?

        nebbish

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • She has purple hair and is covered in tattoos in middle age. Granted, I’m not aware that she has a sex tape, but still, that’s not more prole than most other heiresses? — nebbish

        Not when they’re a billionaire. Maybe this next quote will clear it up.

        “They would say ‘you think you could dress better with the amount of money you have’.

        “I would say ‘look around sweetheart. Look at people like the Triguboffs. We don’t have to dress like we have money because we do have money’.

        destructure

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Betty is a classic example of what Australians would call a bogan, quite close in definition to prole. She dresses badly, has multiple tattoos and weight issues. Her current interest is running a v8 supercar race team. She completely misunderstood her fathers reasons for having her work so young in low positions and in addition divorced her society husband to later marry a much younger guy who liked her when she was 150kg.

        Despite her adoption lottery win she has failed to absorb any of the traits that made her father successful. Her riches will no doubt see her very comfortable but will be put to no constructive use. I bear her no ill will though, I expect she can throw a great party.

        Chris

        June 10, 2013 at EDT am

  21. “This is the current dilemma facing my demo; a brain drain. The kids end up as middles, the dumb ones get jobs through family connections, and the mid proles that manage to ascend are by and large barely competent. For a cab driver, getting a job operating a boiler at a hospital is like an average middle class kid getting hired at Goldman. The simple act of getting to the entry level of competence took all of their talents, effort and ability. There’s nothing left in the tank for them to advance. The IQ just isn’t there.”

    This type of brain drain has surely been going on at least since the end of WW II. Before that it was mostly only the offspring of well to do people who could afford to go to university.

    Melykin

    June 9, 2013 at EDT am

    • Isn’t this a good thing? If you have IQ capabilities to do X, the better you get on that track the better you are. What you’re saying is that a lot of kids try for X, they don’t have the capability and they are unwilling to compromise to do X-1. In this case, the market prices would just adapt paying a little more for X-1. Ofc, there are social differences by doing X-1 vs X, but I’m sure some will jump at the opportunity given enough money for X-1. This is why you have some blue collar jobs paying a lot more than some white collar jobs. So, kids are very entitled nowadays.

      Bottom line: I don’t see a problem. In fact, it’s much better since we’re living in a more meritocratic society where blood connections matter less than before. Price discovery on your career track and capabilities (let’s call it career-discovery or capability-discovery) happens faster now than in the past.

      Zack

      June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Yes, I think it is a good thing. My grandmother, who was born near London , England about 1880, was a striving prole. When young she worked as a nanny in rich peoples’ houses. Eventually she came to Canada and she and her husband did quite well operating a shoe store in Vancouver. They ended up buying a nice house and property in the Fraser Valley which she tried to furnish like the stately home she worked in as a girl. She had two daughters and she wanted them both to attend university but one got married (to an upper middle class sort of guy) and didn’t want to go to university. However my mom ended up taking law and being called to the bar in 1951. She married another law graduate. But they were probably what you might call prole lawyers. They just hung up a shingle and worked for themselves.

        Melykin

        June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

  22. Unrelated but important. Check out this map showing the percentage of people ages 25 to 34 still living with their parents in 2011. There seems to be a correlation between higher IQ nations having lower percentages of young adults living at home. Denmark, Sweden and Finland have the low percentages at 1.9%, 4.1% and 4.1% respectively. Compare that to the rates in Eastern Europe, Hispanic and Southern Europe where around half of young adults live at home.

    Some non-EU stats of the percentage of young adults still living at home:
    Australia- 12.4%
    US – 24%

    bobo

    June 9, 2013 at EDT am

    • Southern Europeans (and perhaps Eastern Europeans) are more evolved, and are more family oriented than the barbaric Nordics. That’ll be the argument. It’s also partly due to cultural and socioeconomic reasons.

      My encounters with successful Italian, Greek and Jewish Americans are similar, many of their children are constantly in touch with their parents, whereas Whites of Northern Ancestry tend to have a far more distant relationship.

      It has nothing do with IQ. Any moron can share a cheap apartment with other idiots, just to get away from mom and dad.

      Just Speculating

      June 9, 2013 at EDT am

    • Sidetracking the discussion a bit. I found this very interesting site about Southern Europeans. The author of the site believe SEs are culturally and intellectually superior than their Northern brethen (aka Nordics).

      http://medish.shorturl.com/

      He also makes a point that Ashkenazim, those who exhibit strong Southern European phenotypes tend to be the smartest, most successful and best looking, whereas the Ashkenazim who exhibit Nordic or Semitic features are less. I can attest a kernel of truth to it.

      An Italian American Prole would fare better than a Irish American Prole, based on his theories.

      Talking about HBD!

      JS

      June 9, 2013 at EDT am

      • One needs to wonder if HBD is applicable to the different groups of Whites, who are much more diverse in phenotype and culture than Asians, Blacks and Latin Americans.

        Just observing the bulk of the geniuses coming from around the temperate zones of the Mediterreanean, Southern Europeans are inherently smarter, culturally and artistically superior to Nordics, despite both groups are classified as “Whites” and higher IQs are found in the colder reaches of Europe.

        JS

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

    • I doubt it. Young adult Asians are likely to live at home into their adulthood. Further, in many cultures, it is custom for a female to live with her family until she is married. So the decision to stay at home has little to do with intelligence and more to do with culture.

      AE

      June 10, 2013 at EDT am

  23. ink to the map:

    Also check out the Reddit discussion about the map.
    http://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/16ndr9/percentage_of_young_adults_still_living_their/

    Why do lower IQ tend to people prefer living with their families among many family members while higher IQ people tend to prefer living in smaller family units away from family?

    bobo

    June 9, 2013 at EDT am

    • I could understand that lower IQ people have less means to have their own space.

      Just Speculating

      June 9, 2013 at EDT am

  24. This post hit a little close to home, with a few corrections. First, Hispanics aren’t going to take over anything. Licensing and insurance, you know, plus the code inspectors and tradesmen are part of a good ‘ol white boys club. I use a Hispanic plumber; he pays his employees off the books and refuses to sponsor their schooling so they’ll never become licensed themselves. Also, one prole school I attended before leaving for lower prolea discouraged students from non-vocational majors. If you wanted to major in Philosophy they would probably suggest you minor in business or CS.

    Islamofascist

    June 9, 2013 at EDT am

  25. Someone pointed to it earlier, but one of the marks of the high prole is that whatever he claims to like and do is what he actually likes as a person. His interests might be low, middle, or highbrow on a given day, but whatever they are they are genuine interests. Bobo interests are always things they think they are supposed to like (but don’t). Proles do follow their passions, but their passions are laughably narrow and base. Only the high prole truly likes a wide variety of things because he genuinely likes them, and not because of fashion or fitting in.

    Bobo’s are dishonest. Proles are honest but only in their own ignorance. High proles are genuinely honest. That is why they are great to be around.

    asdf

    June 9, 2013 at EDT am

    • Lion is high prole. He must be an all around geniune nice guy. I don’t understand why he wants to be a bobo. It sucks living a life of delusion.

      JS

      June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Lion does office work, definitely not prole. He’s also status obsessed, definitely not prole.

        Lion is a failed bobo. His life’s goal at this point seems two-fold.

        1) Pass on knowledge he believes will allow people like him but younger to become bobos.

        2) Butter himself up for inevitably marrying a 35-40 year old bobo woman with baby rabies, having kid(s), and trying to raise them to be the bobo he never became so he can live vicariously.

        asdf

        June 10, 2013 at EDT am

      • In the NYC area, proles are like the morons in MTV’s Jersey Shore; you should watch the first season on Netflix if you haven’t.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 10, 2013 at EDT am

      • Being status obsessed doesn’t put one out of the prole zone, or working in the office is not sufficient enough to say you are a SWPL.

        We really need to clear this up with Lion with what is Prole and what is SWPL level work.

        High prole – white collar professions include such as these:

        1) Computer Programmer (Lion’s profession)

        2) All Accountants

        3) Teacher

        4) Office Clerk

        5) Boutique Law

        Examples of SWPL occupations

        1) BIGLAW

        2) IBanking

        3) Any midlevel to upperlevel work in any Fortune 500

        4) Private Hedge Funds

        JS

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

      • I am no longer a computer programmer. I now fall under midlevel work in a Fortune500.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

      • A doctor is not SWPL level work. It’s a category on its own. It could be prole, because it’s a field dominated by minorities such as Asians and Indians. The same goes for Engineering.

        A SWPL occupation is basically any high status white collar work such as BIGLAW or Finance in a prestigious company that are dominated by Whites.

        JS

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Medical doctors are high status.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

      • A teacher in a public school is considered high prole. A teacher in a private school for bobo children is SWPL.

        JS

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

      • “I now fall under midlevel work in a Fortune500”.

        So Lion is in the lower level of SWPLdom.

        JS

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

      • “Medical doctors are high status”

        Yes, but with Asians and Indians taking over the field, it’s not for the most part. The same goes for Engineering.

        JS

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Medicine is higher status than engineering.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

      • By the way, an Iprole who become an Icon for SWPLs/Bobos.

        Steve Jobs

        Bill Gates wasn’t a prole from his family background.

        JS

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Per Michael O Church’s classes.

        Proles are on the labor track. L2 proles are high prole. L1 proles are high prole/petite bourgeoisie.

        SWPLs are on the gentry track. G4 tend to be hipsters. G3 are SWPL. G2 are bobos. G1 are so rare its hard to call them a class, they are not top out of sight because their careers are all about being in the public light.

        All of the professions you live #1-5 are on the gentry track, and generally not considered higher level gentry work. You are probably confusing them as high prole because there is a general status overlap between G4/G3 and L2/L1. L2/L1 consider themselves very good at what they do (they reached the top of their track) whereas G4/G3 are basically the losers of their own track.

        The professions #1-4 below it are all elite tack professions. Mostly E4/E3. An SWPL would be overachieving to get into those professions. G2/E4 is the relevant status bridge.

        asdf

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

      • “Lion is a failed bobo. His life’s goal at this point seems two-fold”.

        Lion is not as bad as this guy who also went to law school and became a Radio Shack employee with $200K of school debt. Talking about downgrading himself to a low prole where he also gets the lovely opportunity to work with Blacks and Hispanics using his law school degree. How wonderful!

        http://www.wnyc.org/articles/wnyc-news/2010/apr/08/trouble-with-the-law-laid-off-attorneys-pursue-new-paths/

        At least Lion was a programmer and now works in a Fortune 500.

        Looking at his public Linkedin profile, he has left Radio Shack and is now working at a bar association as a non-lawyer.

        http://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelekremen

        It still must suck for him as the BA position doesn’t pay him as much as a lawyer.

        JS

        June 11, 2013 at EDT am

      • Nice story about the Radio Shack esquire.

        What about my past aspirations to be a prestigious principle investigator (a leader of an academic lab)? The typical pathway is to graduate as an undergrad with a science degree; enter a PhD program; do research for content for the dissertation, write the dissertation, and defend it; use PhD to become a postdoc; attain a tenure track position at university; get grants for your research; and lastly get tenure. I realized that this was too difficult for me, and I just said “fuck it” to my academic performance (except of course just maintain enough performance to pass classes, which was easy) and indulged in other intellectual interests independently during college. My passion for molecular biology was actually rekindled after graduation, although I just read scientific papers in favored topics from Google scholar.

        I felt like I actually regressed in maturity during college since I became despondent and diffident hermit instead of a young woman motivated to be a contributing scientist. One of my avocations in college was watching Pokemon episodes for hours in college as a late-teenager/young adult. I am not embarrassed to admit this since my affinity towards the English anime is indicative of my social innocence and dearth of maturity; I am have the demeanor and physique of a fourteen-year old female prodigy who is highly neurotic, and I am feminine in girlish tomboyish way. I actually identify more with Misty in our behavior, character, and personality than young women peers who I often saw on campus, and perhaps that is what primarily driven me to watch the episodes. .

        Black_Rose

        June 11, 2013 at EDT pm

  26. I gotta agree with asdf here. Though I was formally trained/school in computer science, I switched to a ‘high prole’ career path and haven’t looked back. If one isn’t going to be upper class, high prole is where it’s at. Good money, good genuine connections, stay in shape, women like you, etc.

    ek5ake

    June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

    • While being at the very top is the best, being a the top of your broader class is a pretty great alternative. Based on the Fussell hierarchy, I’d said you could more broadly call the upper and top-out-of-sight “Upper class”, the upper middle and middle as “middle class” and the proles as “working class”. The middle class is theoretically higher than high prole. I’d argue, though, that being at the top of the proles is better than being at the bottom of the Middle, in the same way that making $75,000 a year when everyone around only makes $30,000 is better than making $200,000 when everyone around you pulls in $500k.

      Anonymous

      June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

    • High prole is good is it is not physically demanding in this sense it contributes little to actual fitness and has the potential to cause physical problems in a few years. Sports may be an exception. Most males would want to be an MLB player, even if it means having shoulder problem or Tommy John surgery in five years, but professional sports have prestige that most high prole occupations lack.

      Black_Rose

      June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

  27. Quote: “High proles are clueless about why anyone would want to study a subject that has no direct correlation with getting a job.”

    Why would anyone want to study a subject that has no direct correlation with getting a job? I understand that most of the rich people who go to Harvard don’t have to worry about employment prospects but people from working class backgrounds do. What is the point of getting into thousands of dollars of debt just to get a philosophy degree that will only get you a job at Starbucks?

    Joe Walker

    June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

    • You have a point, but I believe that the inference was that proles don’t understand the social / class value of that philosophy degree (which is understandable because it is functionally irrelevant to them) nor do they likely understand that a philosophy degree from an elite school is worth more in the workplace than are most vocational degrees, assuming that the graduate in question has social capital enough to get them noticed by the right employers. Most of that social capital should be gained during their time at the school, if it didn’t come before, but there are shy, prole Princeton grads who would likely be best served by a hard science major or similar vocational study.

      Tom

      June 9, 2013 at EDT pm

      • Proles don’t get into Princeton at all. They get into State U, and the best degree to get from State U is vocational.

        asdf

        June 10, 2013 at EDT am

      • Black_Rose

        June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

      • @ Tom

        One of my cousins (not a close one) is a philosophy major at Cornell. I’m clearly a prole since I don’t see the benefit. So what is the benefit?

        destructure

        June 11, 2013 at EDT am

      • @ Destructure

        It depends. What does he want to do? Is he thinking law school?

        Renault

        June 11, 2013 at EDT pm

    • Perhaps because college =/= trade school. That philosophy degree can be the gateway to years of graduate studies (who is eager to be a cubicle “galley slave” anyway?), and the country is going down the drain anyway, so why not rack up a fat student loan tab and have some fun (if a philosophy, or what not, degree is your idea of fun, that is). When the economy bellies up, having such debt will be the least of one’s worries (finding the right gauge shells for your sawed off “Mad Max” shotgun will be the order of the day).

      STEM jobs are apparently on the decline, anyway, and medicine has it’s distasteful elements (interacting with proles, etc.) so hmm….

      Of course, intellectual pursuits are not exactly the hallmark of most people from working class prole backgrounds in the first place.

      Sanjuro

      June 10, 2013 at EDT am

    • “Why would anyone want to study a subject that has no direct correlation with getting a job?”

      Because smart people enjoy learning for the sake of learning, and enjoy intellectual stimulation. Going to college for vocational reasons is completely prole.

      Peter the Shark

      June 11, 2013 at EDT am

      • Most people go to college for vocational reasons. Even Ivy grads want to see their degrees pour money.

        JS

        June 11, 2013 at EDT am

  28. Reblogged this on oogenhand and commented:
    Although mayor of a small town, my father always reasoned like a high prole.

    oogenhand

    June 10, 2013 at EDT pm

  29. “When a college bound child of a high prole announces his choice of major, obviously vocational majors such as nursing, education, and business receive strong positive feedback while major choices with no obvious tie to a specific occupation such as philosophy almost always illicit a facial expression of puzzled scorn followed by the inevitable “what are you going to do with a degree in that?” question”.

    Lion is incorrect to say this only happens in high prole families. I once worked with a boutique lawyer and he seemed pretty upset that his son was majoring in history at Yale. He said, unless he’s going to law school, he will not get a high paying job.

    But again, I think most lawyers who work in boutique firms are losers and are in the high prole territory, because they usually come from prole law schools such as Cardozo or Brooklyn Law School, just to name a few here in NYC.

    JS

    June 11, 2013 at EDT am

  30. @asdf

    Not true. Proles get into Princeton and every other Ivy. Your perception of proles is likely a bit caricatured, which is a bit of a perception problem on this blog. Proles are a complex group. They don’t all behave the same nor do they have the same IQ’s, the same opportunities, nor the same home life. There are good prole families with strong values that transcend their socioeconomic status. In fact, your perception of the Ivy’s is likely a bit caricatured as well, albeit maybe a bit more deservedly so. Ivy’s make a strong effort to recruit from average high schools. From what I know of admissions criteria, it’s actually easier to get into an Ivy as a smart, accomplished kid from a public high school than it is as an equivalently smart kid from a prep school. Additionally, college prep feeder schools make an effort to recruit smart proles, many of whom proceed to an Ivy. One of my better prole friends from my private high school went on to major in chemistry and graduate from Princeton (hence my use of the example). He grew up in a matchbox house (named for the small, single story rectangular shape) directly around the corner from where I lived.

    @destructure

    The benefit would be conveying the possession of the upper class value of learning something that is purely academic (little utilitarian real world value) with roots in human history (something old). Philosophy and art are the two standouts, with history a close second. By majoring in something non-technical and non-utilitarian, you are conveying the fact that you have the money to be academically frivolous with your education, that is you don’t need it for survival. This conveys old money and your class status (read Fussell). Also, old (objects, subject of study) is always preferable as far as projecting class status is concerned. Doing something that infers that you intend to work after University is inherently lower than the highest class. However, like I alluded to, it matters as to whether or not you have the connections to actually get hired on that essentially useless degree. The upper class Harvard Art major may have the social capital to be appointed curator of a museum or to be able to make a living running an auction house (or to get hired as an investment banker). The prole Harvard Art major may have a more difficult time with that degree, although if he were to meet the right people and maintain upper class status social consistency, as far as his behavior and social flags were concerned, then he might be able to essentially make a successful class jump and also get great use of that degree. The true TOOS class pursue education to be educated, not to make money. Btw, Ivy graduates with humanities degrees get hired on wall-street quite a bit. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

    Tom

    June 15, 2013 at EDT am


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