Lion of the Blogosphere

The case AGAINST high-tech immigrants

From the PBS Newshour website, of all places:

When Bill Clinton was president, wages for American IT workers were climbing and American students were clamoring to become computer scientists. Fifteen years later, average real IT wages are no higher. It is no coincidence that high-tech industries are now using guest workers to fill two-thirds of new IT jobs.

And now they’re asking Congress to provide them with an even greater supply of guest workers — a supply that by the IT industry’s own estimates would equal 150 percent of the expected number of new IT jobs each and every year going forward. With its passage of the comprehensive immigration reform bill, the Senate has complied, putting out a sign for IT jobs that says, “We prefer guest workers.”

The summary at the end:

Currently, U.S. colleges graduate far more scientists and engineers than find employment in those fields every year — about 200,000 more — while the IT industry fills about two-thirds of its entry-level positions with guest workers.

At the same time, IT wages have stagnated for over a decade. We cannot expect to build a strong STEM workforce and encourage domestic innovation by developing policies that undermine the quality of STEM jobs. Before asking government to intervene in labor markets by handing out more guest worker visas and green cards to STEM graduates, we should ask for audits of shortage claims and workforce impacts as a first step toward developing evidence-based policy on this issue, an issue critical to the nation’s future.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

July 24, 2013 at 4:13 PM

Posted in Immigration

100 Responses

Subscribe to comments with RSS.

  1. Personally I do not complain, but humble experience of my family confirms the statement
    “IT wages have stagnated for over a decade”.

    With great appreciation of the work of TLotB, your F.r.

    Florida resident

    July 24, 2013 at 5:00 PM

  2. This Peter Turchin article was going around awhile back-

    http://www.aeonmagazine.com/living-together/peter-turchin-wealth-poverty/

    It may be the elite realizes things have gotten out of hand and they need to back off. There seem to be other noises that maybe we really don’t need all these people after all.

    thrasymachus33308

    July 24, 2013 at 5:01 PM

    • It may be the elite realizes things have gotten out of hand and they need to back off.

      That’s because the level of diversity is reaching the point where we’re not only seeing third world levels of political and social instability, but we are also hitting thresholds where the UMC and upper class are feeling the pain of non-white immigration.

      UMC white girls are being pushed out by Asian immigrants for medical jobs and IT jobs because the Asians don’t have social lives and because the Asians cheat like crazy. Higher class white girls never cheat. Do drugs. Or have premarital sex.

      Then the traditional UMC value jobs jobs are under pressure because of the decline of law jobs and stagnation in high finance. Even the upper classes face more headwinds placing their children in elite high schools and colleges because of Asians.

      According to Victor Davis Hanson – who, whatever else his faults, is a good chronicler of California – even the white Silicon Valley management elite is complaining about there being too many Asians in their teenagers’ posh high schools.

      This is all good because the fastest way to get a 180 on race, immigration, and demographic policy is for the elites and UMC, whom the elites socialize a lot with, to feel the pain of racial diversity.

      From 1965 to 1990 the elite could posture about the benefits of diversity because most racial problems during this era were the old black vs white type we had become used to and the immigrant population was a minor problem. As recently as 1990 America was still ~80% white. It’s only now with the accelerated rate of migration that we are seeing levels of instability.

      The Undiscovered Jew

      July 24, 2013 at 10:25 PM

      • When did UMC white girls stopped cheating, doing drugs and having premarital sex? That is news to me.

        Colmainen

        July 25, 2013 at 3:51 PM

      • This is all good because the fastest way to get a 180 on race, immigration, and demographic policy is for the elites and UMC, whom the elites socialize a lot with, to feel the pain of racial diversity.

        Don’t delude yourself — part of perquisites of being among the elite to be free from the presence of proles and the lower class, except when they perform menial labor for you and your family of course. By definition, theelite have the political power and financial resources to protect themselves from proles and NAMs, so they asymmetric experience the benefits and few negative externalities.

        Country Club Republicans would never be HBDers’ allies; HBD is just a psychological, sociological and scientific curiosity exploring controversial issues in an objective, sometimes politically incorrect matter. It is not a political platform or agenda.

        Black_Rose

        July 25, 2013 at 6:40 PM

      • part of perquisites of being among the elite to be free from the presence of proles and the lower class,

        You’re missing my point, the problems caused by non-white immigration risk making social instability so high that even the elite can’t immunize themselves from it.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        July 25, 2013 at 10:03 PM

      • This one paragraph is full of crazy: “UMC white girls are being pushed out by Asian immigrants for medical jobs and IT jobs because the Asians don’t have social lives and because the Asians cheat like crazy. Higher class white girls never cheat. Do drugs. Or have premarital sex.”

        – there has always been a substantial lack of women in IT, let alone UMC white girls. They are not clamouring to become programmers. I suspect the same thing for doctors. Not only white girls but all find it tough going through medical school.
        – if you cheat you don’t get very far in the workforce – you’ll be found out at the interview stage soon enough. You can’t fake this stuff.
        – higher class white girls never cheat, do drugs or have premarital sex? Where did you get that idea? Last time I looked, higher class white girls are at the top of the social ladder in American society. Paris Hilton, anyone? Aren’t Asians more likely not to do drugs or have premarital sex since they don’t have social lives? 😉
        – substitute “Asians” with “Jews” and you’ll see the same prejudice facing the Jews in the early part of the 20th century. See what Richard Feynman faced.

        Loblaw

        July 26, 2013 at 12:12 PM

      • This one paragraph is full of crazy:

        there has always been a substantial lack of women in IT, let alone UMC white girls.

        I meant medicine for UMC girls and IT for guys.

        Not only white girls but all find it tough going through medical school.

        Why should whites make life harder for their own daughters by importing more med school competition from Asian drones who apparently don’t sleep and who cheat like crazy to push whites out of schools whites built after having invented modern medicine?
        It’s not like there are many good remaining careers for white girls to go in fields where they used occupy like law and sales.

        I don’t see Asians allowing young, high IQ Europeans to compete against them in top Asian jobs and schools, so why should we put our daughters kind under more wage pressure? And Asians have lower birthrates than European which means they should be hankering for some high IQ white labor. But for some reason their doors are closed.

        – if you cheat you don’t get very far in the workforce

        Right, the Sherlock Holmes-like minds of corporate HR never allow cheating to go unnoticed.

        How old are you? 9?

        Where did you get that idea?

        Apologies for not seeing playful hyperbole is beyond your cognitive facilities.

        aren’t Asians more likely not to do drugs or have premarital sex

        Yes, their lack of a life is part of the reason they unfairly drive UMC white girls out of good medical jobs.

        substitute “Asians” with “Jews” and you’ll see the same prejudice facing the Jews in the early part of the 20th century.

        There aren’t 2 billion Jews in the world to import and those that came here came during an economic boom.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        July 26, 2013 at 8:39 PM

      • @Un Jew: “I don’t see Asians allowing young, high IQ Europeans to compete against them in top Asian jobs and schools…”

        Europeans & Americans will never compete in Asia because if the language barrier.

        E. Rekshun

        July 28, 2013 at 2:46 AM

      • “substitute “Asians” with “Jews” and you’ll see the same prejudice facing the Jews in the early part of the 20th century. See what Richard Feynman faced”

        Asians aren’t like the Jews in several regards.

        1) The most successful Asians lack hard ambition and aggressiveness when compared to Whites/Jews. Even among lesser elite Jews, they are lot more driven for success and would want to push further. Asians are usually happy as middle class. The notion that Asian Elites are beta or staid has a grain of truth to it.

        2) Jews actually faced more prejudices at the elite institutions. White anglos had a very strong distaste for Jews and didn’t want to associate with them in anyway. It cannot be said the same for Asians.

        3) Some Jews were already influential in the early part of the 20th century. Asians will never be influential. The reasons, go back to # 1).

        JS

        July 28, 2013 at 9:33 PM

  3. It’s common sense. Look what happened to the construction industry. They’ll do the same thing to IT and engineering. There’s not a shortage. Native born workers are being driven out. What’s more — even immigrants are being driven out. I read an article about a lawsuit by hispanic immigrants who were suing a meatpacker for discriminating against them in favor of some immigrants they’d imported from the south pacific. You might not think IT and meatpacking have much in common but the motivation for each is to drive labor costs/wages down. That’s why Gates, Zuckerberg and the rest keep pushing an amnesty. It’s all tied together as a political coalition.

    destructure

    July 24, 2013 at 5:25 PM

    • That’s straight out of the 19th century robber baron playbook. They wouldn’t just bring in a constant stream of new labor but specifically seek out different ethnic groups to foment social division and prevent workers from uniting against them.

      reynald

      July 24, 2013 at 10:43 PM

      • We have James Bryant Conant, former president of Harvard to thank for all of this. He started the pseudo-meritocracy where young Americans are essentially sorted by their intelligence via the SAT. The working class now has their best and brightest siphoned off into the white collar ranks, leaving the dreggs to take on the robber barons. It’s not looking good for the lower half of the prole demographic.

        High Prole & Proud

        July 25, 2013 at 1:00 PM

      • Thumbs up to High Prole… I have been arguing that the US is effectively a meritocracy, at least for the middle-class and below.

        Black_Rose

        July 25, 2013 at 8:43 PM

      • Not even close High Prole.

        Of ALL countries, including those in the developing world, IQ is LEAST important in determining the prestige of one’s college in the US and Canada.

        “America’s not a country. It’s just a business.”

        Hugh Lygon

        July 27, 2013 at 5:42 AM

      • Not even close Black_Rose.

        Intergenerational income elasticity is greater in the US than in any other developed country. That is, the US has the MOST rigid class system in the developed world. In the US father’s income is a MUCH better predictor of son’s income than IQ.

        In Scandinavia and Germany father’s income has almost no effect.

        Hugh Lygon

        July 27, 2013 at 5:47 AM

  4. Don’t these companies already save enough money by classifying these guys as “exempt” employees with the same expectation as executives to always be on call “for free,” while extending them none of the promotional/managerial opportunities or perks?

    Fiddlesticks

    July 24, 2013 at 5:57 PM

    • They can never save enough money, earn enough money, or have enough cash on hand. The word “enough” is foreign to them.

      High Prole & Proud

      July 25, 2013 at 1:01 PM

  5. If .mil/.ic industrial complex was slashed in budget (really slashed, not tinkered with) american stem grads would really be screwed.

    uatu

    July 24, 2013 at 6:03 PM

  6. Another reason why I did not want to be a scientist was my realization that they ultimately have no political power. They cannot directly influence any economic, social, or political outcomes, even though the general public regards scientists highly. Scientist are indeed quite knowledgeable about the operation of physical world and are curious, but their accomplishments primarily impresses and earns the approbation of only those with like-minded dispositions, curiosity, and knowledge. Most scientific knowledge cannot be converted into any meaningful political power; scientists are not independent of political and economic forces.

    Black_Rose

    July 24, 2013 at 6:10 PM

    • Lion has argued that non whites and foreigners lower the prestige of occupations where they are over-represented, such as science and IT, and that drives away native born whites. What do you think of that?

      reynald

      July 24, 2013 at 10:40 PM

      • I agree. The lower middle class still respects those career tracks though since it requires objective technical competence, which provides a cognitive barrier of entry, and they are clearly more compensated than other “prole” or menial jobs.

        Academia has too few positions and too much competition for a talented child of wealthy parents to pursue. Industry scientific jobs simply aren’t prestigious either.

        Black_Rose

        July 25, 2013 at 12:38 AM

      • This is how one can determine the prestige of their profession; when your professional services cost a lot of money a “shortage” is declared and they import brown people to cut costs. I mean come on, when was the last time there was a shortage of corporate lawyers, doctors, tenure track faculty, politicians, or consultants?

        High Prole & Proud

        July 25, 2013 at 1:05 PM

      • Again, I concur. The elite believe that normal, non-prestigious jobs perform the sundry essential tasks needed to keep society organized, efficient, and working (such as cops to deter criminal activity and enforce the law and landscapers to keep everything bonny to the eye) but those jobs cannot be too heavily
        compensated since it would not reflect their “proper” social status. If there is an imbalance between supply and demand that favors the workers, then there must correction that “rectifies” this “inappropriate” imbalance through “market forces”; elite (value transference) positions by their character are impervious to supply and demand since merit or aptitude alone is insufficient to hold those positions.

        Black_Rose

        July 25, 2013 at 10:48 PM

    • So, what did you do instead that gave you political power?

      Tarl

      July 25, 2013 at 5:55 AM

      • I just watched Pokémon episodes and baseball games, and read about economics, political philosophy, ethics, finance, history, and HBD blogs on the internet and university library after I became disillusioned with the biological sciences,.

        Black_Rose

        July 25, 2013 at 2:15 PM

      • I guess I would be happy to say that I became a far-leftist around 2011 by mainly reading about economics and history from an author who is highly sympathetic to Maoism after I was dissatisfied with the “democratic institutions” of the US and the economic influence of neoliberal globalization. I could say that I really did not devote myself to typical “leftist” “social justice” causes or activism (especially for aggrieved racial interest groups) while in college nor did I believe working within the United States political system, such as campaigning for a reformist or “progressive” candidate running for a political office or garnering support for some legislation, would change anything. I really did not socialize with anyone in college and my far-leftist is actually indicative of contrarianism since I was follow many of my more conventional, mainstream leftist peers who were enraptured by Obamamania nor was I influenced by the “left-wing” “mainstream media”.

        Black_Rose

        July 25, 2013 at 5:49 PM

      • While one cannot entirely free him/herself from the matrix of the political, economic, and culture influence of their environment, one can still educate him/herself to be inoculated from the myths the system propagates to condition the general population into a state of complacency, conformity, and acceptance.

        Ipsa scientia potestas est

        Black_Rose

        July 25, 2013 at 6:08 PM

      • So, you abandoned science because it would not give you any meaningful political power, and instead became a directionless websurfer… which also gave you no meaningful political power.

        It all makes sense now.

        Tarl

        July 26, 2013 at 10:41 AM

      • No, it is a position of resignation and defeat. I do not follow politics that closely anymore nor I am interested in public policy. What would you do in this Kobayashi Maru imbroglio?

        I am occasionally interested in scientific topics though.

        Black_Rose

        July 26, 2013 at 5:45 PM

      • But hey, I know so much more about NAMs and proles now since I spend some time in the HBDosphere.

        Black_Rose

        July 26, 2013 at 5:48 PM

    • Well, but if you lived in a non shitty country like Germany you could become Chancellor.

      Hugh Lygon

      July 25, 2013 at 10:05 AM

      • Except even there a Vietnamese with no German blood whatsoever can hope to become a Kanzler. He will be one someday, since it appears he is being groomed to become the German Obama.

        Colmainen

        July 26, 2013 at 1:55 PM

      • Of course I was referring to Merkel’s PhD in P-chem.

        Hugh Lygon

        July 26, 2013 at 11:55 PM

  7. As much as I think the “high tech worker shortage” is a sham, the increase in in visa’s for high tech workers is far less damaging than the far more massive increase in low/no skilled workers. Even if an IT guy doesn’t stay in his high tech job, based on his education and intelligence, he’ll be able to find some sort of middle class occupation to keep him out of the welfare trap. That’s not the case with the millions of low skilled workers we seem so desperate to import. They come here with limited options and most will stay that way their whole lives, taking far more in entitlements than they will ever contribute in taxes from their low wage jobs.

    Mike

    July 24, 2013 at 6:50 PM

    • I’d rather live in a country overrun with high skilled/ high IQ immigrants than the low skilled ones who suck the life out of social infrastructure. Too bad there’s no legislation prohibiting lower wages to H1B holders, leaving less motivation to disenfranchise citizens.

      islandmommy

      July 24, 2013 at 8:32 PM

    • The whole object of importing low skilled workers from across the globe is to create the “tower of babel” effect amongst our low skill workers, keeping them divided and weak. The events of December 1958 and January 1959 only 90 miles from Key West scare the crap out of our ruling class to this very day.

      High Prole & Proud

      July 25, 2013 at 1:10 PM

  8. “Currently, U.S. colleges graduate far more scientists and engineers…”

    We also graduate more lawyers than we need, and far more English majors.

    The reason we have so many more STEM graduates than we need is because universities expanded their programs to meet the demands of international students. The universities and colleges are indifferent to domestic labor demands.

    Blog Raju

    July 24, 2013 at 6:58 PM

    • It’s the same in Canada. Especially in grad school–most of the physics, math, engineering, and comp sci students are from China, with a few from India, Iran, etc. And most of them don’t want to go home after they get their degree but rather bring their families over. There is a huge surplus of grads and no jobs. Then they bitch about having to work as cab drivers. The university I work for has lately been replacing tenured retirees with part-time, sessional positions that pay poorly, have no benefits, and no job security.

      There are no jobs for K-12 teachers either. It used to be that if you had a science degree you could get a job as a high school teacher. Now there is a huge surplus of science high school teachers.

      Yet we keep bringing in more and more people.

      melykin

      July 24, 2013 at 10:54 PM

      • Shoot, why bother getting into a STEM field when management’s going brand you a “cost center,” break your balls, and reward the sales idiots instead?

        The scary thing is that these sales tools really do believe that without them there would cease to be economic activity. Its a cult, I swear!

        High Prole & Proud

        July 25, 2013 at 1:19 PM

      • Um…there are tons of jobs for K-12 teachers in the NWT. If you live in a habitable part of Canada then I agree with your statement in the territories there are tons of teaching jobs. I think its because there is a lack of women in the YT/NWT/NU so there are a lack of people to fill the jobs traditionally done by women. When I was an undergrad many education majors at my university talked about going up north after they graduated cause it was easier to find a teaching job there.

        SC

        July 25, 2013 at 1:32 PM

    • I think we just graduate too many people across the board irrespective of their major. The whole “go to college to avoid working at Mickey D’s” mantra has spiraled out of control.

      High Prole & Proud

      July 25, 2013 at 1:13 PM

  9. Cheap labor for oligarchs. Active dispossession of whites in their own country. That’s all you need to know to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

    In saner times, this kind of treason by the elite would be more than sufficient grounds for internal revolution and noose-tightening.

    i am huma's practiced pained expression leading to a hillary-esque senate run

    July 24, 2013 at 7:09 PM

    • Consumer wealth is like a forrest or a fishery. You can manage it sustainably and make less money in the short term but way more in the longer term or you can just extract every bit of wealth as quickly as possible and bankrupt the future. Who is going to buy these people’s goods when they’ve drained the american consumer of all his spending power?

      reynald

      July 24, 2013 at 10:46 PM

      • Stewardship of consumer wealth isn’t even a blip on the radar. Beating the estimate some tea leaf reading analyst came up with is the only thing that matters for publicly traded companies, future be damned!

        High Prole & Proud

        July 25, 2013 at 1:22 PM

  10. And where is Germany getting its engineers? Where is Switzerland getting it medicinal chemists? Where is Australia getting its farm workers? Do Mexicans pick my Shiraz’s grapes?

    When one hears “labor shortage”, he should hear ideology, specifically American ideology. The same libertarian morons whose mantra is “supply and demand” should know that if there were a genuine shortage wages would rise until labor supply would increase.

    Hugh Lygon

    July 24, 2013 at 7:33 PM

    • “Labor shortage” always means “shortage of people willing to work for the shitty wages I want to pay”.

      Tarl

      July 25, 2013 at 5:57 AM

    • Mexicans and Latin Americans are called Arabs and Africans in Europe

      XVO

      July 25, 2013 at 1:16 PM

    • I chalk up the whole shortage nonsense to “American Exceptionalism”

      High Prole & Proud

      July 25, 2013 at 1:23 PM

    • “And where is Germany getting its engineers?”

      Well, of course they have their native engineers, but also from Spain, Italy, Portugal and Greece, and a myriad other countries, including Asian ones.

      anon666

      July 26, 2013 at 11:57 AM

  11. I assume many “elite” jobs would eventually be filled by cheap labor or be replaced by technology. An outsourcing of BIGLAW is a possibility in the future.

    Again, I can wait till the day when the college industrial complex implodes because of immigration and outsourcing.

    JS

    July 24, 2013 at 9:25 PM

    • Nah, too much power is tied up in elite jobs. There is too great a risk of getting your foot blown off if you’re a member of the ruling class and you start outsourcing elite jobs. They’ll never let it happen and they’ll keep on selling this “if you work real hard and get into an ivy league school you can join the ruling class too” bologna so long as Americans keep buying into it.

      We’re stupid people. We call a system that features legacy admits at its alleged “elite” institutions meritocratic.

      High Prole & Proud

      July 25, 2013 at 1:29 PM

      • Went to a campus tour at Columbia University today just for the helluva it. Some undergrad hottie with a bosom figure wearing a skirt was showing us around. She looked more like a cheerleader than an Ivy League student. Anyway, the progressively stupidity of the male students gets worse by the day. Never in my life, I have seen so many dumb looking beta guys. Women nowadays are definitely more manly and alpha, as the female tour guide prove it when she was shouting out her lungs that an Ivy League education means to take on the world.

        JS

        July 25, 2013 at 10:17 PM

  12. Great post, right on.

    Not only do these programs hurt native workers, they also allow many moronic businesses to exist based on cheap labor.

    I have seen the right candidate get turned down because a company wants to pay below market. Period.

    lion of the lionosphere

    July 24, 2013 at 9:30 PM

    • “…they also allow many moronic businesses to exist based on cheap labor”

      Quite. As one business owner said of those unlike himself. “If you can’t afford health insurance and a living wage for your employees, maybe your business shouldn’t exist.”

      If this sentiment were made law the real level of unemplyment (ca. 80%) would be revealed.

      Hugh Lygon

      July 25, 2013 at 1:30 AM

      • Well that means most of the ‘shops’ Asians and Middle Easterners own, so I can’t complain if that guy has his way.

        Colmainen

        July 25, 2013 at 4:06 PM

    • I find the whole “race to the bottom” to be very disheartening indeed.

      High Prole & Proud

      July 25, 2013 at 1:30 PM

  13. We have been producing a surplus of engineers since the 1950s. In some fields, e.g. civil engineering, as many as half the BS graduates do not go on to do engineering. However, an engineering education is good preparation for many careers. Many BS engineers end up in technical sales, and some go on to professional schools like law and medicine, quite a few go on to business school. So, until now, unemployment among BS holders has generally been low.

    However, the situation in graduate schools is severe in the extreme. Around three-quarters of MS/PhD candidates are foreigners. Even in elite schools like Cal Tech and MIT around half the graduate students are foreigners. Under current law almost all go home. A few do get H-1B visas and stay. But even this has an impact. In my former department, a majority of the faculty are foreign-born and educated in the US. This is true in most engineering departments. A large majority of the authors publishing in my technical journals are foreigners. The great majority of these people are Chinese, and their English is mediocre. My former colleagues are also complaining about fairly wide-spread cheating among the foreign graduate students especially the Chinese.

    Under the proposed immigration law, everyone getting an MS or PhD would automatically get an H-1B visa. This law will crush STEM salaries and, for the first time, lead to large-scale unemployment among native engineers and scientists.

    The proposed immigration law is also the most anti-black legislation since the slave laws of the Antebellum South. Millions of uneducated, unskilled Mexicans would compete directly with working class blacks for jobs and housing and welfare benefits. This has already happened in Southern California, and hundreds of thousands of blacks have been ethnically cleansed from the region.

    In his recent post, Ron Unz concludes that the elites are deliberately importing Mexicans for the exact purpose of ethnically cleansing blacks from desirable cities like New York and LA.

    bob sykes

    July 25, 2013 at 8:05 AM

    • >>This law will crush STEM salaries and, for the first time, lead to large-scale unemployment among native engineers and scientists.

      Good. Most American STEM graduate students are liberals. Let them eat the bitter fruit of their life-long endorsments

      Daniel

      July 25, 2013 at 10:29 PM

      • I guess we should native born med students and those taking “prole” majors such as business and criminal justice.

        Black_Rose

        July 26, 2013 at 12:01 AM

      • I guess we should favor native born med students and those taking “prole” majors such as business and criminal justice. Those are “conservative” students.

        Black_Rose

        July 26, 2013 at 12:11 AM

      • If IT and Engineering wages fall then it’ll be cheaper for entrepreneurs to hire these people to build robots or cloud platforms to automate other jobs out of existence. This will in turn create a new “revolution” (think web, smart phones) and massively increase the demand for engineers thus increasing their wages.

        Think back to after the dot com bubble. Engineers were dirt cheap and the market took advantage of that to create products like Facebook and the iPhone. Now they are more in demand then ever and their salaries have been increasing very fast.

        See unlike lawyers and sales people, when engineers create value, they tend to increase demand for themselves as well. Zuckerberg and the rest of Silicon Valley (including the rank-and-file engineers) understand this very well, so most of them are pro-immigration of smart people.

        Unfortunately, other occupations will get brutalized by this automation trend. An engineering job will be seen as a golden ticket to the upper-middle class in the future; the alternative is unemployment (can’t find job due to automation) and living off government stipends.

        nycisdirty

        July 26, 2013 at 1:18 AM

    • I read that & then wondered about muslim immigration into england & europe. If we accept the premise that there is a conscious desire to replace undesirables with slightly less undesirable immigrants, who is being replaced in europe?

      islandmommy

      July 26, 2013 at 7:43 AM

      • Many European countries that had colonies get an influx of all kinds of undesirables from their former colonial realms. Unfortunately, now that the Europeans are no longer taking on the white man’s burden and civilizing the natives they’re even less civilized than they were before. There’s no longer an occupying force in place to keep the peace and to build schools, roads, hospitals, and other infrastructure.

        Ask yourself, would you rather live in white ruled Rhodesia or Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe?

        I find it ironic that the British, originators of the democratic Westminster system of government, turned the screws on the white ruling class to give up power so that a black despot could then take over as the defacto dictator for life. Since then this guy’s gutted the economy and chased out all the productive white farmers with the country’s only real solid years of economic growth coming as a direct result of the lifting of sanctions in 1980.

        They’ve since lagged behind the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa economically:
        http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Zim_GDP_per_capita_1980-2010.svg

        High Prole & Proud

        July 26, 2013 at 7:35 PM

    • If they pass this law I can forsee a chain reaction in which the engineers perform as trained, take on the problem of being unemployed, and they’ll end up solving said problem by displacing people in other occupations who are less intelligent/capable.

      I mean let’s face it, engineers aren’t proles on a GM assembly line whose skillset consists of bolting the bumper onto a Chevy pickup truck. They already end up in all kinds of non-engineer jobs and over 20% of S & P 500 CEO’s majored in engineering. These are the same folks that put men on the moon and a bazillion transistors on a tiny silicon wafer. They’re not dumb.

      The way I see it our nation’s engineers, by and large, are going to be merely inconvenienced for a few years if this law passes. Ultimately, some other occupational area/social class is going to end up paying the piper when this is all said and done.

      High Prole & Proud

      July 26, 2013 at 7:14 PM

  14. While one can definitely be more sympathetic to high IQ immigrants, one has to remember a simple fact. People hire people like them. Women tend to hire women. Indians tend to hire Indians. This should be obvious to anyone who works in business for awhile. Employment in large companies it mostly about politics, and we all know people are tribal in their politics.

    This is why I don’t see high IQ immigrants as creating jobs. It’s more likely that the second one gets in all the hiring they do the rest of their career will be of other immigrants.

    The only case of immigrants creating jobs is if they create some amazing company from scratch that employs so many people they can’t help buy employ some natives. However, the kind of people who do this are such a small number of current immigrants. If we restricted it to only those with 130+ IQs we could keep all this company starters while cutting immigration massively.

    asdf

    July 25, 2013 at 2:24 PM

    • Indeed, most “businesses” created by Indians are body shops for fellow Indians and outsourcing operations.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      July 25, 2013 at 7:41 PM

      • Funny you should mention that. I came across an article about that very issue today.

        http://reason.com/archives/2013/07/17/why-india-is-on-the-side-of-restrictioni

        Mike

        July 26, 2013 at 7:56 PM

      • wouldn’t you do the same? outsourcing is an easier (lower risk) business. a tech start-up would have a high rate of failure and you’ll need to work your ass off. on the other hand, outsourcing has a very low rate of failure. sure, you don’t have the same huge payoff that another Google or Facebook would have, and it’s also a race to zero as others are building their own outsourcing shops, and it could simply not be profitable at some point as the cost of living in India raises.

        …but for now, if you’re in a poor country with some tech talent, doing outsourcing (vs trying to change the world) is a no-brainer from the business perspective.

        In other words the reasons why indians create outsourcing shops are business-related, and not because they wouldn’t be able to do something else. In fact, America indians have created their share of start-ups here in US. (Bose is one that everybody knows)

        Zack

        July 27, 2013 at 10:15 AM

      • Yes, Indians start U.S. businesses in which they have a comparative advantage, and those businesses involve hiring Indian immigrants and/or outsourcing work to India.

        But these business startups do NOT create jobs for non-Indian Amerians.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        July 27, 2013 at 2:30 PM

      • “Yes, Indians start U.S. businesses in which they have a comparative advantage, and those businesses involve hiring Indian immigrants and/or outsourcing work to India.

        But these business startups do NOT benefit non-Indian Amerians.”

        This is an argument against globalization, not immigration of skilled workers.

        In particular if you want the skilled workers to contribute in the long term, by monitoring what’s happening to them (based on who sponsored the visa, country of provenience, etc) you can try to predict if they are going to stick around or not. Funny enough this is what top universities do with international high schools and countries — they rate them based on the success of previous students from there. Top universities have better data than say… usnews, forbes, etc

        Zack

        July 27, 2013 at 2:42 PM

    • Yes, Indian body shops qualifying for Minority Disadvantaged Business Loans, where the American taxpayer subsidizes the business creation of a “model minority.”

      map

      July 27, 2013 at 7:59 PM

  15. In Silicon Valley there has been a shortage of engineers since at least the 1980s. This shortage was largely filled with immigrants, mostly graduates of US colleges that did not want to return to their native country. Companies would have gladly hired native engineers rather than immigrant engineers that had communication problems because of poor English skills. The problem was there just were not enough good native engineers available.

    In the late 1990s at the peak of the dotcom bubble, thousands of hopelessly bad programmers were hired because they could write a few lines of Java code. After the dotcom bust, most of those people lost their jobs and were forced to leave. It is possible to graduate from a US college with a degree in computer science and still not be able to program. Not all STEM graduates should be able to find jobs. Some of them are just not good enough.

    The reason the US is still the leader in some high tech industries is because of the brain drain the US imposes on the rest of the world. Other countries send their top students to US Universities and many of the best of them stay in the US when they graduate.

    When you lump together all STEM graduates it obscures the big picture. We may not need a lot more immigrants for sys admin jobs, but we do need the best and brightest from around the world to remain the leader in many high technology sectors.

    mikeca

    July 25, 2013 at 3:19 PM

    • You’ll be replaced too…

      Zuckerberg

      July 25, 2013 at 9:32 PM

    • That is all malarky.

      Ever since science and engineering became dominated by asians and indians, the quality of science and engineering has been going down. There are no real innovations produced by these people, only incremental improvements any technician could make.

      The change probably occurred in the 70’s. So come the 40 years prior to, say, 1969 and the 40 years after ’69. When science and technology was ruled by the smartest whites, the world was revolutionized. Over the last forty years? Very little.

      map

      July 26, 2013 at 12:05 AM

      • “There are no real innovations produced by these people, only incremental improvements any technician could make.”

        no inovation? really? most STEM PhD’s are foreign. Google, Apple, MS, Amazon, etc have more than half of engineers foreign (and the salary and benefits are top notch) Also, faculty is more international now at top universities. Top universities care about publications and prestige. period.

        Zack

        July 26, 2013 at 5:06 PM

      • Oh yeah. As soon as Hedy Lamarr invented spread-spectrum in 1941, any technician could have developed CDMA, Bluetoosh, WiFi and the smart phones. It was all obvious.

        And what have you invented?

        mikeca

        July 26, 2013 at 9:39 PM

      • Almost all progress that we see in science and technology is incremental, exactly in the form of comparatively ordinary minds (while still clearly above average) making comparatively minor contributions that together and over the years have a great impact.

        The proportion that make individual contributions that truly change the world/industry/market/science/whatnot is miniscule—irrespective of nationality.

        (Of course, this miniscule proportion is the more valuable for it.)

        michaeleriksson

        July 27, 2013 at 3:58 AM

  16. The situation is somewhat similar in at least some European countries: The industry complains about lack of skilled employees (as in the German “Fachkräftemangel”), yet the actual employment opportunities and salaries point to a less drastic lack than claimed. I currently speculate along two lines:

    1. If the supply of skilled employees is artificially increased beyond what is actually needed (and here complaints by the industry to the politicians can help, as can exaggerating the prospects of college enrollers), the salaries can be kept lower than with a natural balance of supply and demand. This applies in particular when green-card workers are added to the mix.

    2. What the industry needs is not people with a certain level of education or formal qualifications—but people with a good head. (As I can testify from my own experiences in the software industry.) Merely having more people with this-or-that diploma does not mean that the number of people with a good head increases—and with dumbing-down and grade inflation a diploma says less and less about its owner’s head. In other words, going from x good heads and y graduates to x good heads and 2 * y graduates can leave the industry genuinely short on the people it needs and simultaneously show an on-paper surplus.

    michaeleriksson

    July 25, 2013 at 4:10 PM

  17. …but adding skilled/high IQ people to the country should increase the our competitiveness relative to other countries. It should be very good long term, shouldn’t it?

    It’s also way better than importing low IQ people — if there is some inheritability their children will just suck more resources and put more stress on transfer payments.

    Zack

    July 25, 2013 at 9:09 PM

    • He asked hopefully?

      Lowered social cohesion, middle class competing with the global poor for salary and the global rich for housing, chain migration of all their lower IQ friends and relations, cognitive elite hostile to common law and property rights that made the US attractive in the first place…

      Ask yourself why all these skilled/high IQ individuals can’t start prestige institutions in their homelands. They can’t, and therefore can only lower the prestige of our institutions.

      The US desperately needs a timeout on immigration if there’s going to be a US left to talk about. Of course, this will not happen.

      The Anti-Gnostic

      July 26, 2013 at 10:23 AM

      • “Ask yourself why all these skilled/high IQ individuals can’t start prestige institutions in their homelands. They can’t, and therefore can only lower the prestige of our institutions.”

        The same reason why a tech industry doesn’t start outside of Silicon Valley… there’s power in having everything nearby and concentrated. Same with finance in NY (and Chicago for CTA’s) It has nothing to do with culture or society or IQ, but rather with business reasons.

        Zack

        July 26, 2013 at 5:08 PM

      • Look, I’m just hoping that the country doesn’t descend into chaos. Revolts usually don’t end particularly well for anyone. Our celebrated revolution is the exception, not the rule.

        High Prole & Proud

        July 26, 2013 at 7:17 PM

      • Zack – do you really believe what you write? Nothing to do with culture or society or IQ? Literally nothing?

        The Anti-Gnostic

        July 27, 2013 at 9:00 AM

      • “Zack – do you really believe what you write? Nothing to do with culture or society or IQ? Literally nothing?”

        Yes, it’s the first order. It’s not IQ or culture because these can be imported. It’s a particular case of first mover advantage. You can see this everywhere. Back when Silicon Valley started, the competition was on route 11 in Boston/Cambridge. Boston had plenty of qualified people, being the home of MIT, Harvard, Tufts, BU, BC, Northeastern, Wellesley, Smith, etc, and also having other top colleges in New England nearby… Darmouth, Brown, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, etc etc What did Silicon Valley have? Stanford and Berkeley. That’s it. Yes, Boston lost, and after it lost, the chances of coming back are much smaller, because it lost the first mover advantage. The same can be seen with most industries: movies — all in LA, porn – San Fernando Valley, biotech – Boston, pharma – NJ, finance – NYC area, etc etc. In Europe it’s the same. Why are the finances in London, and not spread out equally based on economic output? Are the English better at finances than the French or the Germans or the Italians or the Russians? No. It’s the first mover advantage. This is first order. The rest that you mention is second order.

        Zack

        July 27, 2013 at 2:53 PM

      • I call BS. Look at Singapore, Korea, Japan. Those places weren’t great 100 years ago. They had no more opportunity than Zimbabwe. But they had totally different people.

        not too late

        July 28, 2013 at 5:33 PM

    • It should be very good long term, shouldn’t it?

      High skill immigration isn’t comparable to free trade because we aren’t exchanging labor forces the same way we exchange goods with other countries.

      If the Asians don’t open up their labor markets to import high IQ white American, Canadian, and Australian workers, then why should white Americans, Canadians and Australians import high IQ Asians?

      The Undiscovered Jew

      July 27, 2013 at 7:12 PM

  18. Chris. P

    July 26, 2013 at 11:27 AM

  19. I have an accounting degree from a good school and still can’t find work in Vancouver, because all these Asian girls have the same degree with better grades.

    See, I had this quaint little idea that I actually wanted to have some fun in undergrad and not just study study study 24/7. God forbid.

    Scott

    July 26, 2013 at 12:23 PM

    • brah, you need to either get into the pot business or become a ski-instructor..you live in BC. Why the hell would you want to slave away in a cube for PwC or some shit-accounting firm when you live in one of the most naturally beautiful cities in north america?

      uatu

      July 26, 2013 at 3:26 PM

      • Because I was a stupid kid. Thought I wanted the Patrick Bateman lifestyle and that it would be easily attainable.

        You still need connections to get those slacker jobs.

        *sigh* Guess it’s back to working at KFC.

        Scott

        July 26, 2013 at 4:06 PM

    • “I have an accounting degree from a good school and still can’t find work in Vancouver, because all these Asian girls have the same degree with better grades.

      See, I had this quaint little idea that I actually wanted to have some fun in undergrad and not just study study study 24/7. God forbid.”

      So you want to have meritocracy with the elite americans, but blocks against the foreigners. It’s not about ideology or what’s best for the country but rather what’s best for you. Got it.

      Zack

      July 26, 2013 at 5:10 PM

      • Yeah, no kidding. Folks want their citizenship to mean something. What the hell is the point of having a country? You can be sure those foreign chicks won’t be donning a uniform and be sent off to die in some dumb ass military action, but Canadian men will. Why exactly should Canadian men be loyal to an elite that isn’t loyal to them? Well?

        not too late

        July 28, 2013 at 5:37 PM

      • “Yeah, no kidding. Folks want their citizenship to mean something. What the hell is the point of having a country? You can be sure those foreign chicks won’t be donning a uniform and be sent off to die in some dumb ass military action, but Canadian men will. Why exactly should Canadian men be loyal to an elite that isn’t loyal to them? Well?”

        Generally it’s hard to defend on both sides. For any left wing entitlement example, saying that it’s a right, but surely that right has no country boundaries. On one side you want an entitlement because of fairness, but then you block that fairness based on geography. People like to argue the way they benefit the most, and then they use different ideology on both sides without realizing it’s not compatible. You can’t make the argument work. If you use an argument to fight on one side (say, against the elites), surely the same argument can be applied by lower classes or foreigners (or others) to fight against you. Also to note that the elites are usually from people who just emigrated earlier (first the mayflowers, then the wasps, then jews, then catholics – italians and irish, this decade it’ll be the asians, and after that it will be the evangelicans probably)

        This is why I think citizenship should not give someone a right to mooch off the taxpayers in perpetuity. It should be the same as it was on the playground when I was a kid. If you’re in a team and suck without improving, others should vote you out of the team. We have no way to vote people off this country unfortunately (outside of putting them in prison, but that also costs). UK used to have a way: they used to send the undesirables to Australia. GS, McKinsey have a way: they just fire a big chunk of them every year. Even people have a way with other people at the local and state level: they just leave the undesirables and move to suburbs (or some other place where the undesirables are priced out) See Detroit, a place where most people left behind are undesirables — people with no skills, and people who are too old to work. About 50% of the Detroit population is illiterate. Good luck recovering from that.

        Zack

        July 28, 2013 at 8:32 PM

      • This is in reply to Zack’s comments on July 28, 2013 at 8:32 p.m.

        “For any left wing entitlement example, saying that it’s a right, but surely that right has no country boundaries.”

        This is incorrect; rights are inherently tied to jurisdictions, and thus to borders. Try appealing to the American first amendment, even in other Western countries. You can and will be punished by governmental agencies in Canada, for example, for making true statements about protected groups, even if you can prove the truth of your statements. Mark Steyn has written about this at great length.

        Ostracization was a mechanism in ancient Greek democracy to vote undesirables into exile, so there is a precedent for that. However, the real solution is to stop inviting undesirables to become citizens.

        As for poster “not too late,” I agree that the establishment in most Western countries, including Canada, shows no loyalty to people like you. What you need to do is organize like-minded people and have your voices heard. The “elites,” who are rather pedestrian when you get to know them, live in a bubble that you need to break through. The average member of the “elite” is of average intelligence, and really does consider himself a superior person based on his romanticization of immigration (“nation of immigrants”) and his embrace of “the other.” You need to communicate to them that all they have managed to accomplish is to “otherize” you.

        whatevertheweather61

        July 29, 2013 at 10:32 PM

      • “This is incorrect; rights are inherently tied to jurisdictions, and thus to borders.”

        I disagree. When you justify Obamacare as a right for people who can’t afford healthcare to other people’s work (which is what healthcare is — doctors, drugs, etc), surely this justification has no boundary limits. Why not offer free healthcare to the entire planet? There are 2 main issues with your “rights”: (1) while the letter of the law is tied to jurisdiction, what about the spirit of the law? and (2) the justification behind the entitlement programs surely isn’t restricted by geographic boundaries. This justification usually appeals to certain human qualities from others, such as pity, empathy, etc, and these can be felt for people outside of the jurisdiction too

        Zack

        July 29, 2013 at 11:28 PM

  20. The army of middle-class/upper-middle class stem grads working in defense or government related positions need to be up in arms about this too. Many are shielded due to security clearance requirements/citizenship requirements so they don’t face the same pressures as their purely private sector counterparts.

    uatu

    July 26, 2013 at 3:29 PM

  21. I have to wonder if any of you were complaining over past thirty years while the construction industry was going through a much worse situation

    viking

    July 27, 2013 at 10:40 AM

  22. […] The case AGAINST high-tech immigrants. One of the stupider arguments for increased immigration is the HR-girl complaint that she “can’t find” any Americans that keyword-match the stupid automated job description that she didn’t understand anyway. Two of my most common complaints (immigration, and HR) converge… […]

  23. John McCain should be executed as a traitor.

    angryamerican

    August 1, 2013 at 4:20 AM


Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: