Lion of the Blogosphere

Diaosi in The Economist

Thanks to reader Fiddlesticks for pointing me to The Economist article about diaosi.

Diaosi is a term that went vial in China in early 2012. The consensus English translation is “loser,” but the literal translation is “male pubic hair” or “penis hair.” Diaosi have no hope of finding a girlfriend, because girls in China are apparently only interested in men who are tall, handsome, and wealthy. Diaosi spend most of their free time playing online computer games.

90% of China’s IT workers consider themselves to be diaosi. (According to The Atlantic, a whopping 97.39% of programmers consider themselves diaosi.) I find this a little surprising because I thought that IT and computer programming would be more respected in China than it is in the United States, but apparently IT work is the lowest status white-collar occupation all over the world. The highest-status jobs in China are “civil servants, working for the government or the Communist Party” because those are the job categories in which those surveyed are least likely to identify as losers.

One difference between the United States and China is that in the United States we embrace the philosophy of relentless optimism, so even losers are not likely to call themselves losers. In China, people are allowed to be more honest about their station in life.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

April 18, 2014 at 12:48 PM

143 Responses

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  1. Diao Si (屌丝) – according to the Chinese wiki http://www.baike.com/wiki/%E5%B1%8C%E4%B8%9D
    are those who are 穷丑矮挫胖笨撸 (poor, short, fat, dumb, ugly, book worm). Yeah pretty much what you said. 🙂

    施耐庵

    April 18, 2014 at 1:02 PM

    • It seems like this is a major demographic in our college system.

      JS

      April 18, 2014 at 1:46 PM

  2. The chinese lion would be telling kids to go to a C9 university and then civil service.

    uatu

    April 18, 2014 at 1:18 PM

    • The chinese lion would be telling kids to go to a C9 university and then civil service.

      Not until they near old age do even the best connected East Asian government workers have a shot of becoming an elite. Gaining the support of older power brokers, maneuvering past competitors and building a network of younger elites takes decades longer compared to the West. This also applies to their corporate politics where leadership is very old.

      When they do become elite politicos or capitalists East Asian politicians gain a certain Lee Kwan Yu type of wisdom reflective of the Budha himself. Or at least the Lion.

      The Undiscovered Jew

      April 18, 2014 at 1:54 PM

  3. On the other hand, our media keeps trying to push STEM onto both men and women, who 99% certainly don’t have a high enough IQ do it at a level that doesn’t endanger them to oversea Indians who will soon replace them. Even the vast majority of people in STEM live the most boring and overworked lives. The only dimension they’re a success is in terms of having a decent salary.

    Taylor

    April 18, 2014 at 1:30 PM

    • On the other hand, our media keeps trying to push STEM onto both men and women, who 99% certainly don’t have a high enough IQ do it at a level

      Anyone with an IQ over 105 can be taught to program.

      The Undiscovered Jew

      April 18, 2014 at 1:47 PM

      • But not well.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        April 18, 2014 at 2:20 PM

      • But not well.

        Will they need to?

        More robots and internet usage means more code has to be written and maintained. Routine coding tasks could be done well enough by programming ‘ditch diggers’ through rote memorization code classes. Truly dazzling programmers will continue to specialize in the cutting edge stuff.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        April 18, 2014 at 2:38 PM

      • LOL. I guess it depends on what you consider programming. HTML, CSS and for loops? There’s no chance that an IQ of 105 is high enough to understand pointers and recursion for example. These are two fundamental topics you learn in courses like CS50 (Introduction to Computer Science I). It requires juggling two levels of abstraction simultaneously. Ivy League kids struggle with it.

        I’d recommend an IQ of 130 minimum. 120 for web dev, but only if you enjoy the work. And you might be replaced soon.

        Taylor

        April 18, 2014 at 2:43 PM

      • The media keeps pushing it because it’s important. STEM folks are the ones getting rich in what otherwise been a difficult economy for most ppl. they are running circles around everyone else with few exceptions.

        grey enlightenment

        April 18, 2014 at 4:28 PM

      • LOL. I guess it depends on what you consider programming. HTML, CSS and for loops? There’s no chance that an IQ of 105 is high enough to understand pointers and recursion for example. These are two fundamental topics you learn in courses like CS50 (Introduction to Computer Science I).

        Computer Science courses have precious little to do with real world programming. Rote memorization and step by step instructions are all students of average intelligence need to gain moderate computer proficiency.

        Teaching grunt level level computer knowledge is within the grasp of someone with a 105 IQ – granted they’ll never excel:

        http://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/45725-how-we-teach-introductory-computer-science-is-wrong/fulltext

        What should we do instead? That’s a big, open question. Pete Pirolli and Mimi Recker have explored the methods of worked examples and cognitive load theory in programming, and found that they work pretty well. Lots of options are being explored in this literature, from using tools like intelligent tutors to focusing on program “completion” problems (van Merrienboer and Krammer in 1987 got great results using completion rather than program generation).

        This literature is not saying never program. Rather, it’s a bad way to start. Students need the opportunity to gain knowledge first, before programming, just as with reading. Later, there is a expertise reversal effect, where the worked example effect disappears then reverses. Intermediate students do learn better with real programming, real problem-solving. There is a place for minimally guided student activity, including programming. It’s just not at the beginning.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        April 18, 2014 at 4:48 PM

      • There’s no chance that an IQ of 105 is high enough to understand pointers and recursion for example.

        huh? cs has among the lowest sat scores. ok math but super low verbal. cs people are like mensans. nerds who think they’re a lot smarter than they really are.

        jorge videla

        April 18, 2014 at 6:51 PM

      • @jorge videla

        When you say CS has the lowest scores, I think you may be referring to something lumping in Information Science, Computer Engineering and/or other majors that are computer related but decidedly not Computer Science.

        The primary difference is that CS has two required classes that act as major IQ filters. The first is Algorithms, which is basically a theoretical math course on par with Abstract Algebra, Real Analysis in terms of cognitive difficulty. The second is Operating Systems, which is basically a monstrous work horse on par with Organic Chemistry in burning dimmer bulbs out. At any decent school this prevent anyone with an IQ below 120 from earning a Computer Science degree, but not necessarily an Information Science degree. At the graduate level there is usually an advanced type system course taught in Haskell or similar language, there the IQ threshold is probably at least 130.

        Doug

        April 18, 2014 at 8:14 PM

      • The smart career move for CS people is to go into a job that heavily relies on programming, but whose primary purpose is something else. The current hot example is Data Scientist. Programming skills are absolutely required and form a nice barrier to entry. But the Data Scientist’s purpose isn’t just to write code, but to do something else that has a lot more value-add and direct impact on the top-line. As such they tend to be a lot more prestigious and better compensated than regular developers.

        Programming as a skill in the 21st century is becoming like writing. Being able to write well is a highly essential skill that is very often important for being successful. But that doesn’t mean being a professional writer is a good career choice.

        Doug

        April 18, 2014 at 8:18 PM

      • @ jorge videla

        re: CS having relatively low SAT scores, which means relatively low IQ. Let’s think about this critically. In addition what Doug mentioned, I think you are basing it on intended majors’ SAT scores. You also need to take into account that engineering majors often have 40-60% dropout rate. Also these kids may be tested as having relatively lower verbal SAT scores, but I bet alot of that is due to 1st generation Chinese immigrants who started learning English at 10 years old. I know kids who had perfect 800 math but 600 verbal. And surprise, their parents don’t speak English and they began learning English when many of us were taking Spanish classes (because we were told that’s useful). They’re allocating a disproportionate amount of mental resources trying to understand the vocabulary.

        CS may not be physics, philosophy or math, but it definitely requires a sigma above 105. Even before taking Algorithms or OS classes, CS requires two semesters of Calculus and Physics each in your freshman year. Now think about what percentage of kids in your high school could even manage to do AP Calc or AP Physics. 105 IQ or low SAT scores? It’s not even close.

        San Jose State is suspending the Udacity partnership just six months after it launched. The problem: More than half the students in the first batch of online courses failed their final exams… the failure rates in the five classes ranged from 56 to 76 percent. Nor was the course material exactly rocket science—the five classes were in elementary statistics, college algebra, entry-level math, introduction to programming, and introduction to psychology.

        San Jose State University’s average SAT scores fall between: Verbal: 440 and 560 and Math: 470 and 590

        You disagree, take the Intro to Programming course yourself. Or give it to some 105 IQ kids with low SAT scores with a financial reward for completing it. It’s even taught in python, the most pedagogically convenient programming language, because it’s easy.

        Taylor

        April 19, 2014 at 4:08 AM

      • At the graduate level there is usually an advanced type system course taught in Haskell or similar language, there the IQ threshold is probably at least 130.

        total bs. every masters in cs isn;t in the top 2.3% of americans. http://magoosh.com/gre/2013/gre-scores-for-science-programs/

        jorge videla

        April 19, 2014 at 5:15 AM

      • 158 Quantitative score is in the 78th percentile, and since only college graduates who want MORE education take the GRE, GRE-takes already come from from the top 15% of the population, so I’d estimate that half of computer science graduate program applicants are in the top 3% of the population from the perspective of quantitative skills. Not genius-material, but not the dummies you say they are.

        Also, most people applying for these graduate degrees are foreigners because the immigration laws give special consideration to people with U.S. graduate degrees, and so most graduate CS degrees come from crappy schools loaded with foreigners. Foreigners will always take advantage of any immigration loophole.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        April 19, 2014 at 7:27 AM

      • “But not well”
        Someone with an iq of 115 can be a superb programer.
        There is no need of being a genius to write good code .

        eyaldavid

        April 19, 2014 at 9:39 AM

      • You also need to take into account that engineering majors often have 40-60% dropout rate.MYTH

        jorge videla

        April 19, 2014 at 3:21 PM

      • You disagree, take the Intro to Programming course yourself.

        i agree. 105 is too low. but the higher the iq ceteris paribus the better one is at anything.

        my own experience with a background in math and chemistry…coming up with the algorithms is easy. the rest is so f—ing tedious, no one would like it unless … je ne sais quoi. i took a few cs courses in school and did fine.

        some japanese american northwestern physics phd drop out at one of my employers brought a program to me he’d been unable to debug, he claimed, for a year. with almost zero experience i found the error in a few hours. i told him and he insisted i make a flow chart. (the indo-european advantage in programming is an example of hbd?)

        i’m not coming at this from total naivete, just almost total naivete.

        jorge videla

        April 19, 2014 at 3:31 PM

      • Not genius-material, but not the dummies you say they are.

        i NEVER said they were dummies.

        jorge videla

        April 19, 2014 at 3:33 PM

      • the comments bear me out. and it’s not just true of software folks.

        technical people of all stripes overestimate their psychometric intelligence.

        jorge videla

        April 19, 2014 at 3:36 PM

      • @jorge

        The test score link you sent is still grouping Computer Science and Information Science together. Like I said these degrees have very different requirements and CS is much more cognitively challenging than IS. Hardly any IS masters course will teach their intro course in a highly functional language like Haskell, whereas most CS graduate programs will.

        Without breaking out IS from CS, you might as well group Math and Accounting together because they both work with numbers.

        Doug

        April 19, 2014 at 9:09 PM

      • When I was in school, our computer science curriculum emphasized the theory and practice of how computers work. There was much time spent on things like finite automata, computability and unsolvabilty (NP completeness, NP hard, etc), performance of algorithms, etc. comparatively little time was spent on rote teaching of specific programming languages (at that time C, Pascal, COBOL, and Fortran being the most widely used). You were expected to learn routine programming on your own. Low tier computer science “trade” schools have little analysis and theory, and are essentially “code ditch digger” cookie cutter factories. Good ones emphasize theory and the science of computer science. Programming languages and software tools come and go all the time, if you have a solid background in the fundamentals you can learn any language.

        Michael

        April 20, 2014 at 7:42 AM

      • Jorge, at selective engineering schools the dropout/transfer rate is lower than 60% because the students are well qualified and well prepared, and tend to do well in their classes. They also know they want to be engineers and don’t fall for the “I want to ‘find myself’ nonesense of liberal arts majors and waste time in college like indecisive students do. At less selective schools, the engineering dropout rates are considerably higher, since there are a higher percentage of students who aren’t as well prepared and have the ability to do the work. Engineering is tough no matter what the school, but of course students with higher innate ability and scientific/work discipline acumen will have a higher graduation rate. The overall, national dropout rate in engineering however for the entire US is still the highest of all undergraduate majors, on the order of 50% as the other commenter states.

        Michael

        April 20, 2014 at 9:07 AM

      • CS may not be physics, philosophy or math, but it definitely requires a sigma above 105.

        Distinguish CS from paid programming work. Passing a course in algorithms requires an IQ over 115. However is rarely needed for routine coding work. It’s no more necessary to understand algorithms for mundane programming tasks than a driver of a Porsche convertible needs to understand the math and physics that went into the design of his cars’ tires.

        And to the extent CS teaches algorithms they it teach badly compared to how the Math department does it:

        http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.fr/2007/08/whats-wrong-with-cs-research.html

        Depending on the people and the problem, this approach may or may not produce results. But certainly nothing else will. More or less the above strategy was followed at the MIT AI Lab, at Bell Labs in the early Unix days, at Engelbart’s lab, at Xerox PARC, at Berkeley CSRG, etc. It produced most of the aforementioned pioneers of system software.

        And it is the farthest possible thing from academic CS research as practiced today, which I think is the main reason why we see so little good come out of the field.

        Of course, creative programmers can be hard to inhibit. Academic CS programs do bring together a lot of very smart people, and sometimes they still get out of control and actually build something useful. Thus, for example, Google. Note that the idea that became Google was not a part of anyone’s research project, it was not assigned by Page and Brin’s advisors, it had no Principal Investigator, it was just interesting, cool and relevant software.

        As a general rule, this sort of thing can only happen in the first couple years of grad school, in which your basic purpose in life is to learn all the things they forgot to teach you as an undergrad. After that you are sucked into the apparat, and unless you are very good at working the system, your power to work on random cool stuff disappears. If you are extremely lucky and successful, it may reappear in fifteen years, when you have your own empire. But most creative people don’t have the patience to play this game.

        snip

        Next we have the mathematicians, who prove interesting, cool, and relevant propositions. Unfortunately, most of the really interesting, cool, and relevant propositions in computational mathematics were proved before 1960, but there is still some fun stuff left. Genuine computational mathematics typically goes under the name “algorithms” in CS, although cryptography is also of course math.

        Obviously, computational mathematics and creative programming are only barely related. In my humble opinion, if something is math, it should be in the math department. As we’ll see, managing math and programming as if they were one field has produced disastrous results.

        This brings us to the third group, the bureaucrats. Bureaucrats build academic empires which churn out meaningless solutions to irrelevant problems.

        The CS-research bureaucrat’s main difficulty is that no one wants to fund bureaucrats. Therefore, he must pretend to be either a creative programmer or a mathematician, preferably both. Since this task is critical to his survival, he is extremely good at it.

        The bureaucrat has many strategies. But probably his best is to take an area of creative programming and devour it like a locust, by turning it into a form of mathematics.

        Math outcompetes creative programming in the funding process, simply because it appears to be more rigorous. It is more rigorous, and it generates a longer, deeper river of more impressive publications. And, because its area is nominally applied, it doesn’t have to compete with the real mathematicians over in “algorithms,” who would clean the bureaucrats’ clocks in five minutes.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        April 20, 2014 at 3:52 PM

      • The overall, national dropout rate in engineering however for the entire US is still the highest of all undergraduate majors, on the order of 50% as the other commenter states.FALSE

        i’ll never own a cell phone. all work in this area is worthless.

        jorge videla

        April 20, 2014 at 9:11 PM

      • my experience…

        the best programmers are people who like it.

        the mathematical logic part of it is f—ing easy.

        no cs grad has to take any of the structural or physics courses.

        the best mathematicians hate programming…even though they’re good at it.

        jorge videla

        April 20, 2014 at 9:14 PM

      • at some point in the lives of most technical people iq became synonymous with being useful or with solving puzzles.

        psychometric intelligence isn’t defined as either of these and isn’t either of these.

        “nerd” is overused, but there are some who are appropriately described as nerds. and it’s not a compliment or a virtue. yet, nerdiness is required to make a fortune in technical areas with the exception of medicine.

        the specialization of labor is de-humanizing, but nerds think, “wunderbar! i love this! i’m not human anyway.”

        jorge videla

        April 20, 2014 at 9:25 PM

      • Jorge, in my school computer science majors take two years if physics through basic quantum mechanics, two years of calculus, thermodynamics, theory of computation, a couple of the first level computer engineering courses (so as to be familiar with how computer hardware is designed, not just software), and others. We believed, like liberal rays proponents do, in the value of a well-rounded education. That is the difference between an “academy” and a “computer science trade school factory “.

        Michael

        April 21, 2014 at 9:05 AM

      • In my last comment, “liberal rays” should be “liberal arts”. Typo, my bad!

        Michael

        April 21, 2014 at 9:21 AM

      • “Specialization of labor is dehumanizing”?
        What would you propose instead? A “generalist” (such as most liberal arts graduates) cannot do the work of an engineer, scientist, physician, accountant, architect, etc, but those jobs certainly need to be done and to do them one must necessarily have specialized knowledge in the particular field and specialized experience. Most of the “specialized” people I know have “non specialized” interests outside of their specific work. Also, a medical person isn’t necessarily any less of “nerd” (I hate they word, since what it really is is a pejorative most often used by people without the “nerd” (ie specialized person) intelligence).

        Michael

        April 21, 2014 at 9:34 AM

      • @LotB: …most people applying for these graduate [CS] degrees are foreigners…

        I did a graduate-level CS concentration (i.e. six courses in the grad CS department) for my MBA in the late ’90s at the University of FL. In every CS course I was the only American-born student. All Indians and Chinese. Zero blacks except for one smart Jamaican woman. I remember one Indian female asking me, “so, where are you from?” thinking I was European. The courses, however, were rigorous and grading was serious.

        When discussing the difference between CS and Information Systems majors, IS was referred to as “CS-light.”

        E. Rekshun

        April 22, 2014 at 5:35 AM

      • @whiskeysplace: St Joseph in Orange CA laid off 1200 nurses and aides last year. Plans another 500 or so.

        Yes, it happens, but a lot of times “nurses” actually means LPNs. Some RNs might get laid off when the hospital has an extended period of unfilled beds, but it seems like they get a decent job somewhere else right away.

        Back in the late ’90s in S. FL, a former girlfriend worked three 12-hour days at one hospital then three 12-hour days at a second nearby hospital, and got 80 hours of pay per week. She was making $65K at each hospital! Eventually she did, however, get laid off from one hospital. The hospital brought in a bunch of Philappino nurses at $15 per hour.

        This former girlfriend eventually earned her MS in Nursing and hoped to become an ARNP, but in S. FL that market has been flooded and she’s been stuck in the RN role for almost twenty years, still at $65K per year; though she’s never been out of work for more than a few days.

        E. Rekshun

        April 22, 2014 at 5:45 AM

      • @Michael

        that the specialization of labor is dehumanizing doesn’t mean it should be gotten rid of. it does mean that industrialization has produced rex mottrams, nerds, and other hollow men where there weren’t many of these sort before.

        medicine is not nerdy, because the entire point of civilization is life-extension. everything else is typhos, trumpery, vanity. if the engineer’s work is subordinated to increasing life expectancy then it isn’t nerdy.

        i will never own a cell phone, and i will always dislike people who do.

        I hate they word, since what it really is is a pejorative most often used by people without the “nerd” (ie specialized person) intelligence

        that statement alone proves that there are nerds and they don’t know it.

        a nerd is someone with a narrow range of interests or passions or anyone who is passionate about things which don’t really matter. nerd = specialist at the useless, meaningless, etc. like wireless communication for example.;)

        jorge videla

        April 22, 2014 at 7:57 AM

      • @ Jorge,

        Without science, engineering, and whom the great unwashed consider “nerds” we literally would be in the Stone Age. Modern medicine wouldn’t exist without engineering. Wireless communications – and all other forms of communications- are absolutely essential to longevity. Engineers of all disciplines aren’t the “hollow” people you think. You really believe that an occupation that doesn’t rely on specialized knowledge automatically makes a person not. “Hollow”? My experience has been that those who believe that simply don’t have the acumen to understand what engineers really do, despite the fact that you, and everyone else, uses the results of engineering and benefits from them every day. There is literally nothing that you do each day that is not affected by engineering in one way or another. Engineers are arguably the most important people in society for this reason. It’s too bad that our American culture actually does worship hollow- eg., sports, Wall St, lawyers, Hollywood, Yankees, crap music, et al.

        Michael

        April 22, 2014 at 9:53 AM

      • “Without science, engineering, and whom the great unwashed consider “nerds” we literally would be in the Stone Age.”

        I agree with this. But does society, today, reward the people who advance civilization? No, they are not rewarded.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        April 22, 2014 at 11:17 AM

      • Nerd = a man with no sexual value to fertile women.

        Curle

        April 22, 2014 at 10:46 AM

      • @Lion:

        Yes, the people that have built civilization aren’t rewarded, because civilization is controlled by the hollow.

        @Curle: “No sexual value to fertile women”? What you really mean is “no sexual value to stupid women”. I have met many smart women who value an equally smart man, such as an engineer.

        Michael

        April 22, 2014 at 11:39 AM

      • Celebrity news and sports don’t really matter, but people with a passion for these things aren’t nerds. Nerds are attracted specifically to complex quantitative systems, which in today’s society, really do matter.

        BehindTheLines

        April 22, 2014 at 12:04 PM

      • Excellent comment, BehindTheLines.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        April 22, 2014 at 12:11 PM

      • “Nerd = a man with no sexual value to fertile women.”

        Not true. A lot of women find nerds very sexy.

        MaryK

        April 22, 2014 at 12:54 PM

      • Nerds are generally not liked by women. It’s a physical thing.

        Geeks can be attractive, they just have a restrictive set of interests or possess erudite knowledge on a topic that can make them outsiders in society, but it doesn’t necessarily bar them from women.

        The difference between nerds and geeks, is that the 1st group do not convey any sexuality or physical attractiveness to the opposite sex, especially for women.

        JS

        April 22, 2014 at 4:50 PM

      • i agree that my definition of “nerd” includes people who don’t immediately come to mind when one hears the word “nerd”. but these people may refer to themselves as nerds. art nerds, celebrity nerds, finance nerds etc. warren buffet is a nerd par excellence. he f—ing lives for his job. he has said, “the ultimate luxury is being paid to do what you would pay to do.” and he has surely been paid.

        “nerd” in america is an inheritance of the british class system, where gentlemen didn’t do trade or anything remotely technical. they did nothing, or rather managed the family estate. they did law or politics. or they did the church.

        jorge videla

        April 23, 2014 at 2:02 AM

      • @michael

        we’ve already discussed this. engineers are the most important people in “society”, but i don’t believe in that society.

        Wireless communications – and all other forms of communications- are absolutely essential to longevity. WHATEVER YOU’RE SMOKING, I WANT SOME.

        In 1850 life expectancy at birth in the US was 35 years. It was the same thousands of years ago before civilization.

        It has only been in the last 100 or so years that civilized people have equaled the life expectancy of their savage ancestors. For thousands of years “civilization” benefited none or benefited only the rich in terms of life expectancy.

        Today 90% or more in the developed world and, perhaps surprisingly, nearly that % in the developing world will die from aging. Their death certificate will list heart attack or stroke, cancer, diabetes, pneumonia, etc., but the ultimate cause will be old age.

        Yet the NIH spends less on research in the biology of aging than is spent on Super Bowl advertising every year.

        Recently Apple was the most valuable company in the world. Its market cap exceeded Exxon’s and Walmart’s and, of course, GM’s and Citibank’s. And it wasn’t a bubble. It’s real income justified its valuation. BUT IT’S A F—ING TOY MAKER!

        Erwach!

        jorge videla

        April 23, 2014 at 2:20 AM

      • Apple is a toy maker. Ha…that’s a good one.

        JS

        April 23, 2014 at 10:48 AM

      • So what Udacity needs is a scoring system that accounts for … ummm … institutional context and individual circumstance.

        Glengarry

        April 24, 2014 at 10:42 AM

    • So what is the best career field for someone who does not get into an Ivy League (or Ivy like university). Not everyone can be a star salesmen and salesmen are going away. Healthcare and engineering jobs are higher paying than trying to work in law enforcement or education.

      superdestroyer

      April 18, 2014 at 1:49 PM

      • Management consulting for a prestigious company like McKinsey. Or Finance.

        Oh, you said for people who can’t get into Ivy League. Healthcare.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        April 18, 2014 at 2:20 PM

      • Management consulting for a prestigious company like McKinsey. Or Finance.

        Elite consulting doesn’t have enough openings even for all Ivy League graduates.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        April 18, 2014 at 2:40 PM

      • Get an Econ degree. It’s easy and if you have a good GPA you’ll have a job somewhere. Healthcare is also good.

        Let’s remember that college ready SAT scores is about 1100 to 1200 on the old 1600 scale, or 1650 to 1800 on 2400 scale. That translates to about 115 IQ. Only 1 in 6 white people have that. So most people going to college would be better served going to vocational school. Become a cop, nurse, mechanic, etc. It’s more beneficial for proles to learn how to budget their spending rather than waste 4 years getting drunk and watching college sports.

        Taylor

        April 18, 2014 at 2:50 PM

      • Do you really think a person with an economics degree (undergraduate) from Virginia Tech, Tennessee, Oklahoma State, or Arizona State is going to find a job outside of sales or entry level management?

        High end consulting either requires a high end degree for entry level or lots of experience. In addition, consulting requires that people spend their own money to keep themselves trained.

        superdestroyer

        April 18, 2014 at 3:35 PM

      • Without connections, state school grads are screwed.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        April 18, 2014 at 3:41 PM

      • Lion, with your technical training & experience and law degree, did you ever consider Patent Law? If not, why not?

        E. Rekshun

        April 18, 2014 at 7:24 PM

      • I don’t qualify for the patent bar. You need an engineering degree. My undergrad degree is in Finance.

        However, for people with an engineering degree and some real engineering work experience, law school will offer much better opportunities (if you are willing to work in what seems to me to be the most boring law specialty possible).

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        April 18, 2014 at 9:45 PM

      • (if you are willing to work in what seems to me to be the most boring law specialty possible).

        If you’re a science nerd it might be stimulating. And if you have social skills it’s a great way to get to know value transferers. Senior execs enjoy talking to nerds who can explain science in layman’s terms. Oh, and the pay is lucrative.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        April 18, 2014 at 10:30 PM

      • “I don’t qualify for the patent bar. You need an engineering degree.”

        No, it is much easier to qualify, any traditional science BS where the course requirements aren’t very watered down will qualify you, and small gaps can be filled with community college classes. Getting a patent law job is much harder than passing the bar though, and those jobs are usually in high cost areas like DC, SF, and Boston.

        lodola

        April 19, 2014 at 12:47 AM

      • Management consulting for a prestigious company like McKinsey.

        Or management consulting at Accenture, the lower tier firm for state grads. Salaries are in the lower six figures.

        JS

        April 19, 2014 at 9:48 AM

      • St Joseph in Orange CA laid off 1200 nurses and aides last year. Plans another 500 or so. ObamaCare screws hospitals, doctors, healthcare workers for insurance companies and their risk corridor guaranteed profit.

        So no no healthcare. Education? Only if you are NAM. Patronage is critical there. Education is designed to employ maximum NAMs for votes.

        I got nothing.

        whiskeysplace

        April 20, 2014 at 2:26 AM

      • “Oh, you said for people who can’t get into Ivy League. Healthcare.”

        If I’m reading the entrails correctly, the total insurance costs of healthcare seems to be rising, for some quite substantially, with Obamacare. If so, the party shall continue for some time.

        Might be worth figuring out where exactly the rents accrue, though.

        Glengarry

        April 24, 2014 at 11:18 AM

  4. Slightly off-topic: contrary to some comments I’ve seen, I don’t believe computer programmers will acquire more status in the robot economy.

    On the contrary, their job will be one the first to be automatized, notably through the development of genetic programming (self-correcting software) and the furthering of code libraries.

    System engineers, though, will continue to gain status at an exponential pace.

    Thomas

    April 18, 2014 at 1:52 PM

    • The difference between a computer programer and a systems engineer is like the difference between a garbageman and a sanitation engineer.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      April 18, 2014 at 2:22 PM

      • $50k, and a large boost in status?

        Some Guy

        April 18, 2014 at 2:29 PM

      • You don’t know what systems engineering is. A true systems engineer has to have knowledge of all the disciplines that make up a product or service- hardware, software, mechanical, thermal, environmental, power, performance, logistics, cost/schedule/economics, produceability, and all the others. In addition to all the engineering prerequisites such as calculus, physics, chemistry, probability, thermodynamics, etc and all the basic sciences and design courses, a systems engineer has to be expert enough at all the engineering disciplines to ensure the overall success of the product. This is arguably a more challenging task than that of the software, hardware, mechanical, etc engineer alone who is responsible only for one specific aspect.

        Michael

        April 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM

      • What is status? Basically conveying to women that you are not cringe-worthy. A systems engineering does that? I don’t think so!

        JS

        April 20, 2014 at 11:10 AM

    • System engineers, though, will continue to gain status at an exponential pace

      What makes you think this?

      Brian Sumpter

      April 18, 2014 at 2:36 PM

      • A job’s status is roughly a function of offer and demand. Not directly (contrary to what economist types believe), but because once the perks associated to a job become desirable enough to offset the nerdiness factor, normal people start to join in, and this in turn makes the job high-status. An example of this is medicine. Doctors were the geeks of Antiquity.

        Engineers are not yet completely cool, but they are likely to become so in the future, simply because their skills will be more and more sought after, and the supply of engineers is not infinitely stretchable (due to HBD).

        Thomas

        April 18, 2014 at 3:32 PM

      • Working for a paycheck at a job so you can earn a living is so prole, and that includes BIGLAW and Finance. Anything that doesn’t involve self actualization or your passions is not status-fiable.

        Engineers will never be cool because most of them aren’t promoting themselves, but working behind the scenes for a someone else.

        Jobs with status are those for narcissists.

        JS

        April 18, 2014 at 3:47 PM

      • Working for a paycheck at a job so you can earn a living is so prole, and that includes BIGLAW and Finance. Anything that doesn’t involve self actualization or your passions is not status-fiable.

        JS, according to you very few things are not “prole”. I guess the best way not to be troll is to have enough “fuck you” money in a trust fund, be a hedge fund manager, or play in the NBA, NFL, or NBA.

        I am going to watch some Pokemon episodes (some episodes featuring Paul in Gen IV) and go to Good Friday Mass later. I guess that’s prole, even though those things do not fit any stereotype of prole.

        Latias

        April 18, 2014 at 5:12 PM

      • This is getting ridiculous.

        Latias

        April 18, 2014 at 5:12 PM

      • @ Black_Rose

        Off topic but years ago you once said you were a Marxist-Leninist. Since you’re so adorable I was curious and began to learn more about it. I wrote a lengthy blog post about the Russian Revolution that might interest you.

        http://eradica.wordpress.com/2014/04/16/from-russia-with-love/

        eradican

        April 18, 2014 at 8:56 PM

      • JS, according to you very few things are not “prole”. I guess the best way not to be troll is to have enough “fuck you” money in a trust fund, be a hedge fund manager, or play in the NBA, NFL, or NBA.

        Correct! Although I have to say sports is prole. Hedge Fund manager = not really self actualizing, because these guys have a lot of money and are still working.

        There are other things that are not prole that is status-fiable. College professor being one of them. Another is a music teacher at a prestigious music school. A NYT writer or editor (Lion’s favorite example). A creative director or senior graphic designer for a major ad agency or corporate entity. An entreprenuer who starts and runs his own company for a bobo clientele (Steve Jobs is a very good example). A dog lover who walks bobo dogs and earns a sh*tload of money from it. I know of a person who does this for a living in NYC.

        Pokemon and any low brow geek stuff is indeed prole.

        JS

        April 18, 2014 at 10:46 PM

      • And by the way, status-fiable for men is basically pussy verified.

        Any job/occupation or interests engaged by men that are not seen appealing to women, essentially lowering a male’s sexual market value, has low status. End of story!

        JS

        April 19, 2014 at 12:36 AM

      • There are many prole athletes, but an MLB pitcher isn’t “prole” because he is a pitcher: he is a prole because he is prole.

        Being a “major league” athlete is self-actualizing, as they necessarily need to be good at it, which I why I put it there. On the other hand, low and middle minor league athletes are horribly undercompensated.

        Latias

        April 19, 2014 at 12:41 PM

  5. I know a few fairly attractive female consultants who staff beta IT guys. I asked them if I should go into the industry (even though I have no intention to do) and they said, it’s great paying field with a lot of potential. Of course, any guy who listen to these females don’t understand the irrationality of women.

    JS

    April 18, 2014 at 1:52 PM

  6. “The chinese lion would be telling kids to go to a C9 university and then civil service.”

    Chinese-speaking John Derbyshire frequently advises young Americans to get government jobs for the stability, low stress and benefits. A lot of people avoid them because they think they are special superstars and don’t want a career track that starts out with low pay and where even the top performers don’t get rich.

    lodola

    April 18, 2014 at 2:25 PM

    • The true top performers in govt. service leverage their experience in govt. to get high paying, high status jobs with contractors, or industry.

      AKA they use govt. service to gain the status to allow them entry to the value transference ultra-elite.

      Some Guy

      April 18, 2014 at 2:35 PM

      • The high end civil servants get a contracting job after they retire at 55. However, the pension check at 55 is is a better deal than almost all pensions in the private sector.

        superdestroyer

        April 18, 2014 at 3:37 PM

      • my aunt’s ia husband consults with explosives manufacturers. he’s retired atf. he didn’t have to sell himself. they called him.

        jorge videla

        April 18, 2014 at 6:56 PM

    • I don’t think a lot of students at top schools avoid them. Getting a fed job at an interesting agency or department is VERY competitive. At one of my alma maters (think KSG, Fletcher) federal government positions are some of the most highly sought after. When Snowden first leaked and lion wrote a piece on it, I wrote a huge post regarding how positions within the IC are really great…..good pay, quite interesting work, can’t take work home, and have HUGE barriers from competition on the labor side, good training and investment in employee skills, solidarity of culture, good exit ops, etc.

      I have experience in MBB and certain IC elements are much more elite and self-actualizing to work for in my opinion.

      DOJ honors program slots are very competitive and hire at mostly the very top of law schools.

      In DC, you run into loads of HYPS types in civil service (treasury, state, cia, doj, eop, etc.)

      uatu

      April 18, 2014 at 2:51 PM

      • civil service is also most prized by the best students in france and japan. on ereason government is so bad in the us is that it is viewed as the employer of last resort. it’s a self-fulfilling world-view.

        jorge videla

        April 18, 2014 at 6:59 PM

      • Derbyshire’s advice is aimed at middle class people and state and local governments, whose payroll is much bigger than the non-military federal government.

        lodola

        April 19, 2014 at 12:52 AM

      • @lodola: state and local governments are some of the worst places to get a job given the budget issues muni’s face. Federal service on the other hand is excellent for the most part. I would rather make 65k at State Department than 140k at Bain where you are pushed out after 2-3 years.

        uatu

        April 19, 2014 at 3:02 PM

    • Sixty per cent of Americans make less than twenty dollars an hour. There are a lot of government jobs that pay more than that. As the Derb says, they are stable and low stress. As long as you get along with the boss and don’t be the office troublemaker, there’s no problem. Federal civil service jobs are the best. You get regular step increases and, as Superdestroyer states, you can currently retire at 55. Federal government pay and pensions are something you can depend on. What other employer can just print up more money whenever he runs out?

      Mark

      April 18, 2014 at 4:36 PM

      • I believe you need 30 years under your belt before you can retire at 55. It appears the more common retirement age is 60 or 62. If you have a high level job and came in after grad school you’d be lucky to make 30 years by the time you are sixty.

        Curle

        April 21, 2014 at 10:08 PM

      • Seems like LoftB is full of old Steves – baby boomer types who view everything from the former economy.

        Millenials generally hate long term routine work.

        JS

        April 22, 2014 at 10:42 AM

  7. Are there any enjoyable jobs?

    One of my friends is a partner at a law firm. He is in his early 40s and makes over a million a year.

    I remember going out with him last summer to a baseball game, followed by dinner and drinks. We left the bar and I dropped him back at his office, around 11 PM — on a Saturday.

    We probably went wrong with agriculture. Isn’t that what the story of Adam and Eve is about? The fall from grace was the transition from the idyllic hunter-gatherer lifestyle to sweating in the fields.

    If you aren’t born rich, your only hope is to pinch pennies for an early retirement, hopefully with some sort of passive income.

    Logan Circle Dreaming

    April 18, 2014 at 2:29 PM

    • Are there any enjoyable jobs?

      If you’re a good tax accountant, you can earn a six figure salary in a few months, just working for yourself, essentially what many people make in a year. You can spend the rest of year relaxing, have a second career, taking on some new clients here and there, and it’s all very unstressful when compared to other occupations/professions. You could resolve tax issues and ask for a hefty fee if you help someone save a large bill. Then there are referrals by your existing clients. Prole, maybe, but if your clients are bobo, then your business caters to them.

      Academia is another enjoyable field if you like researching a field of interest and the college environment. Starting pay is exceedingly low in a place such as NYC. But earning 40K in flyover country is a lot of money.

      JS

      April 18, 2014 at 6:48 PM

    • it has seemed that way to me too. “the fall” was just the neolithic revolution.

      and on the subject of Cynicism, many of the sayings attributed to jesus make him look like a Cynic. i didn’t notice this myself, but the similarities are so striking some believe he or those who wrote about him were influenced by Cynics living in Hellenized Palestine.

      jorge videla

      April 18, 2014 at 7:03 PM

    • “Are there any enjoyable jobs?”

      I think the people who rode the craft beer explosion ten years ago have quite enjoyable work. They get the fulfillment of producing an actual tangible good that you just don’t get with office work. The hours aren’t too bad because the process of making beer is pretty predictable. Plus presumably most people in the field probably genuinely like beer. (Most jobs with long hours are like that because the workloads are highly unpredictable and last-minute, like investment banking). Normally that type of thing would be low-paying, but since craft beer became so popular so quick many who got in early are now millionaires.

      I wouldn’t advise going into it now because we’re probably at the tail end of a microbrewery bubble. But I think the smart move now would be going into third-wave craft coffee. You see a lot more craft roasters and third wave cafes popping up, especially in the semi-hip suburbs. Plus some roasters and cafes are starting to get pretty high valuations. I think if you get in the next year or so, you can probably ride the bubble up.

      Doug

      April 18, 2014 at 8:35 PM

    • The fall is a metaphor for our evolution as a particularly intelligent and self-aware species.

      RBGeorge

      April 19, 2014 at 7:03 AM

  8. Um, don’t any of you know about the skewed sex ratio in China, with over 120 males per 100 females in the 20s age bracket? Wouldn’t it be likely that this “bare branches” problem is substantially contributing to the problem described?

    Had China not embarked on a “one-child” policy back in the 70s and 80s and murdered/aborted millions of baby girls then perhaps we might not be discussing this.

    http://www.amazon.com/Bare-Branches-Implications-Population-International/dp/0262582643/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1397846069&sr=1-1&keywords=bare+branches+the+security+implications+of+asia%27s+surplus+male+population

    sestamibi

    April 18, 2014 at 2:34 PM

    • If something is published in The Economist about China, then chances are good that either the issue is made up or its severity is exaggerated. The Economist is something similar to The Christian Science Monitor in the US or you could say something like Pravda in the former Soviet Union. The ratio of the average software engineer/programmer to average salary in China is higher than that in the US. So, the relative status is higher too.

      MyTwoCents

      April 18, 2014 at 3:51 PM

    • The gender imbalance in China is real, the likely effect on China’s foreign policy is probably limited, the decision makers and powerful who rule China do not lack for women. It’s the men on the lower rung of the socioeconomic latter that will be most affected by it.

      The skewed sex ratio is also not a new phenomenon to China. There’s historical evidence to show that female infanticide has been a part of China’s history for some time now. Periods where 100% of the women in places where we have data were married while something like 20% the men never married.

      L

      April 20, 2014 at 10:47 PM

  9. “Old-Economy Steve” types figure if their sons are in the 85th percentile of intelligence, salary and agreeability, they’ll be in the 85th percentile of SMV and start churning out cute grandkids. So there’s still a lot of bad advice out there.

    They’re shocked to find out that it’s more like 20th percentile of SMV.

    Fiddlesticks

    April 18, 2014 at 3:10 PM

    • Old Economy Steve’s are some of the worst people in today’s society.

      uatu

      April 18, 2014 at 4:06 PM

      • Basically proles.

        But I think proles do better in the sexual market than SWPLs, because SWPL women are aiming higher.

        JS

        April 18, 2014 at 6:51 PM

      • as nixon said, “…these bums today…are the luckiest people on the face of the earth…”

        the children of brokaw’s greatest generation are the worst generation.

        jorge videla

        April 18, 2014 at 7:07 PM

    • I’m not optimistic about the world that the 85th percentile grandkids will grow up in. It’ll be the 2040’s to 2080’s. Listen to guys like Tyler Cowen conclude that the top 10 to 20 percent (about 115 IQ and up) will have good lives over the next 10 to 20 years. It’s looking like machines, globalization, and increased population size will make grandkids of people below the top 1% or maybe even 0.1% have to face a much tougher scenario than even people do now. It’s possible this may be offset with genetic engineering, or maybe humans will just go the way of horses. No matter how fast you breed a horse, it just doesn’t compare to the new technology of cars. A human against a machine has no chance. Machines used to assist us, now we assist them. Incrementally, they’ll be able to do everything a human can do. Grandkids of the 85th percentile? lol good luck. There’s a reason why higher IQ types have less kids. Not until we get to a Masters or PhD level of education is there an increase in children. Eventually, that won’t be enough either.

      Taylor

      April 18, 2014 at 5:29 PM

    • This right here. I had “Old Economy Steve” parents who had no idea that that’s how things had become. And of course this generation’s social policies force such 85th-percentile boys to fall all over themselves with guilt about their “advantages” despite the advantage only really existing for maybe the 95th percentile and above. I’d quote the Pareto principle but with SMV it sometimes feels like it’s 95-5 rather than 80-20.

      You can still spin it to your advantage if you find a woman who also believes in this orthodoxy and fails to see just how much higher she could shoot. I live overseas and my wife thinks she’s snagged someone really special in her top-20% elite-educated multilingual husband. I try not to remind her that guys like me haven’t been “catches” in the USA in nearly 50 years.

      Kyo

      April 18, 2014 at 6:57 PM

      • is old economy steve a reference to steve sailor?

        grey enlightenment

        April 19, 2014 at 4:37 PM

      • I don’t think so; it’s just a meme. “Steve” is the boomer who waltzed into part-time jobs as a high-school kid in the pre-illegal-immigration era, enjoyed a great entry-level job market after graduating, thinks that a college degree in any subject with any GPA is a ticket to lifetime security, and basically knows nothing about what anyone under about 40 or even 45, but particularly people in their 20s, have had to face in life.

        Kyo

        April 20, 2014 at 3:39 AM

  10. The reason this global demographic must be hidden is also why it is desirous of bearing its “soul.” “Revenge of the Nerd” was foreshadowed 30 years ago. The “nerd” archetype is under assault, but its originators are largely deracinated now and CANNOT make an automatic connection between the “nerd” archetype and a class of highly intelligent “white” male liberals. Nerd has been liberated. So for example, HBDers and race-realists are a type of “white” liberal nerd THAT WOULD NOT CONCEDE intellectual “equality” with their “black” peers. They reject self-annihilation in this particular instance. They subconsciously made a connection between their nerdness and their whiteness that had them “see” the fallacy of a socially constructed “black nerd.” HBD and race-realism is “born.” It is a go-between though. It is not just a strike at the “black nerd” on one side, but a strike at the white Supremacist on the other side for HBD’s main assertion is equal to that of the most radical of liberationists; white man has no true free will. Nerds be damned. And now the are linked to some real sad characters in China.

    thordaddy

    April 18, 2014 at 3:30 PM

    • I doubt that the many peers of “highly intelligent white male liberals” would even consider ghetto blacks as their peers. I think many would be quite happy to acknowledge that blacks with high enough conscientious and IQ to a prestigious career to be among their peers, even though their race makes their presence anomalous. Those who are HBD aware will realize because of HBD, blacks collectively pose no threat to their social status since blacks in general will likely occupy low status jobs or be unemployed. If this were not the case, it would be denying the cornerstones of HBD: the predictive power of g and the persistent one standard deviation IQ gap between blacks and whites; since blacks have low g, then collectively they are unable to invade high social status positions.

      Latias

      April 18, 2014 at 5:30 PM

  11. Yale or fail. Average is over. Either you’re a supestar or you’re nothing in the brave new economy.

    Oswald Spengler

    April 18, 2014 at 3:44 PM

    • Metropolis by Fritz Lang (1927) somewhat predicted our future: an elite wallowing in leisure, and masses of technicians looking after the machines in the underground.

      Where Fritz Lang was wrong: maintenance robots will take care of the maintenance.

      Thomas

      April 18, 2014 at 4:41 PM

    • That’s definitely how the “rules” are shaping our perception of things…

      It’s real simple… One cannot suppress liberalism with more liberalism. One cannot destroy liberalism. One cannot even reject an aspect of liberalism without signaling that one is in fact simply obscuring one’s affinity for liberalism in another “sphere.”

      One must reject liberalism in totality AND that is easy when liberalism is properly defined.

      To reject liberalism, all one has to do is reject the homo-sexual lifestyle and all that it “ideally” entails.

      This rejection will leave the “white” male liberal in a very tough spot (practically born again) because a NEW PERCEPTION will emerge amongst those still biased towards a de facto homo lifestyle.

      Said “white” male liberal HAS LEARNED to reject this new perception one way or another for his entirely life.

      The psychological war on “white” male liberal continues within and without.

      thordaddy

      April 18, 2014 at 4:45 PM

    • That’s not really true, talk to small and mid-sized business owners. There’s huge demand for managers that are reliable, and can deliver results to the owners and upper-managers that don’t require high touch. The problem with the Millenials is that they’re culturally anathema to the character traits required of this. Millenials require constant feedback and praise, so simply letting them go and expecting results doesn’t work. They have an innate sense of injustice when blamed for things that they feel like aren’t their fault, so they don’t have a “buck stops here” attitude. Finally Millennials are all about self-actualization and balance, so they’re not likely to roll up their sleeves and cancel their weekend microbrewery kayaking trip to get the problem fixed before Monday morning.

      Doug

      April 18, 2014 at 8:26 PM

      • “Millenials require constant feedback and praise, so simply letting them go and expecting results doesn’t work.”

        They too will eventually grow up; just as their predecessors did.

        anon

        April 19, 2014 at 2:47 AM

      • You say “innate sense of injustice” like it’s a negative trait.

        Also, perhaps the problem can be fixed on Monday morning, instead of by Monday morning.

        ScarletNumber

        April 20, 2014 at 3:23 PM

      • Yes, it’s all about self actualization with the Millenials.

        We have an oversaturation of old flubs in all fields, who won’t be retiring anytime soon.

        JS

        April 22, 2014 at 10:55 AM

  12. The nerd archetype is well understood…

    White male of high “intelligence,” socially inept, stupidly honest, physically retarded, easily manipulated.

    All these years later, mature nerd “observes” the oppressive memes used to control him. The archetype had certain truths BUT the goal was really to cement the characterizations in the minds of those white boys that saw themselves as something “nerd.”

    In between young nerd and real time nerd was the genesis of HBD and race realism when “nerd” faced self-annihilation AND the DEMAND to concede an intellectual equality with his “black” peers. This was a bridge too far for some nerds and this split “nerds” accordingly. So now, there is an additional layer to the drama and it is the subdivision between racially aware nerds and deracinated nerds. Most nerds today are of the latter category. But almost all recognize “black nerd” and “Asian nerd” as legitimately oppressed “brothers.”

    And so the story above illustrates the danger of being a liberated nerd… These Chinese clowns are your BROTHERS in oppression.

    thordaddy

    April 18, 2014 at 5:02 PM

  13. Looks like PUAs have a new market to tap.

    Kant

    April 18, 2014 at 5:56 PM

  14. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaosi

    Lion is cherry-picking aspects of this term…it appears as the majority of Chinese say they are Diaosi…it appears more synonymous with “prole” than loser, apparently. Perhaps Chinese are more aware of class differences than Americans, which is why American proles seem relatively happy by comparison.

    Kant

    April 18, 2014 at 8:27 PM

    • No. According to that article, 40% of all Chinese call themselves diaosi. That’s not the majority.

      anon

      April 19, 2014 at 12:04 AM

      • A not insignficant amount then.

        Kant

        April 19, 2014 at 7:11 AM

      • It also says the majority of people in their 20-40s feel like “Diaosi”, not sure if you read that part.

        Kant

        April 19, 2014 at 10:06 AM

  15. Diaosi have no hope of finding a girlfriend, because girls in China are apparently only interested in men who are tall, handsome, and wealthy. Diaosi spend most of their free time playing online computer games.

    How is this different than anywhere else? The only difference I can see is that in addition to nerds getting no poon they also suffer the indignity of being called “penis hair”. That’s just wrong.

    destructure

    April 18, 2014 at 8:53 PM

  16. Only number one son can afford vagina in china.

    Sorry. Couldn’t resist.

    destructure

    April 18, 2014 at 8:54 PM

    • It’s a good thing I had nothing liquid in my mouth when I read this. I would have splattered my computer screen!

      MaryK

      April 19, 2014 at 8:39 PM

      • I think the reasons as to why women in general like White men, more than men of other races is because they are known tend to be trendsetters, bolder and more curious about life. Yeah, I know there are exceptions, Italian American proles tend to have less ambition and curiosity, but that doesn’t negate the fact.

        I’m sure you know about the 3 proles who jump down the Freedom Tower with parachutes, during the wee hours of the night when no one was around. 2 are Jews and 1 is an Irishman. They are now represented by 3 guido lawyers respectively (by the way, they are all Italian American attorneys, which fits the stereotype).

        I don’t think you can get more alpha than this in NYC. Jumping off the Freedom Tower and coming down unscathed is very alpha. I noticed from the comment section of the video, that are a substantial number of female fans.

        JS

        April 20, 2014 at 10:20 AM

  17. however in love one is. however much one desires her. if one must get up early in the morning to have her, she isn’t worth it.

    jorge videla

    April 18, 2014 at 9:07 PM

    • That quote should be on a Hallmark card.

      Oswald Spengler

      April 18, 2014 at 9:55 PM

  18. It’s nice when the economist confirms a thought you independently came upon.

    I predicted ages ago that there would be some positive correlation between male-female sex ratio and the incidence of “diaosi.”

    There are millions of young Chinese males for whom there are literally no compatible female partners. These young men have no chance of fulfilling “will to power” in real life, so they attempt to fulfill it in the digital world, hence video games, internet forum seniority (reputation points) and so on.

    From a geopolitical standpoint, this is very dangerous. Young men who can’t get laid and who feel disaffected with society are very willing to fight wars. World war 3 will be fought by a horde of horny Chinese males who have nothing to lose.

    According to Ronald Fischer, the male-female sex ratio converges to 1.1 under a set of quite easy and natural assumptions. China is just going to have to wait this problem out.

    anon

    April 18, 2014 at 11:58 PM

    • Luckily they are too busy playing computer games to want to join an army.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      April 19, 2014 at 12:12 AM

      • Diaosi have no hope of finding a girlfriend, because girls in China are apparently only interested in men who are tall, handsome, and wealthy.

        I wonder if they are talking about White men who go to China and poach their women. Most Western men, whether wealthy or not, who go to East Asia to find spouses or to get laid, are usually not the archetypical goodlooking Mr. White Knight.

        If they are talking about White men, then Roosh was correct about East Asian men being perceived to have the lowest SMV by all women throughout the world.

        JS

        April 19, 2014 at 12:44 AM

      • In the 1980s and most of the 1990s, I used to never ever see men of East Asian origins paired with white women. In the late 1990s I started seeing enough of them to take notice. In the past 15 years I’ve noticed more and more marriages where the male was Asian and the female was white, plus Eurasian children. I wager anything in the 2020 census this trend will become noticeable. What’s changed (if, indeed, something has done) ? On casual inspection it seems to be just a matter of height. I see a lot more Asian men at or above 176cm now than formerly. I’ve seen all this complicated explanations of the low sexual status of Asian men but maybe it was just a question of stature in earlier generations grown up poor with too little protein.

        pseudoerasmus

        April 19, 2014 at 4:47 PM

      • It’s not only a matter of height that East Asian men are unpopular with women. They are perceived to be less masculine and not as physically attractive as other men.

        Black and Hispanic men are still able to have leverage with women, DESPITE their loser status as being underachievers, because they are lot more alpha and masculine than Asian men, who are more successful, but are seen as boring beta providers.

        One needs to scratch their head and ponder as to why SWPL women would give these guys the time of the day. I’ve known SWPL women in NYC who’ve gone out with NAMs who live in the housing projects, yet some Ivy League Asian guy, they wouldn’t think twice. This goes to show you that women do like bad boys.

        JS

        April 19, 2014 at 7:13 PM

      • “It’s not only a matter of height that East Asian men are unpopular with women. They are perceived to be less masculine and not as physically attractive as other men.”

        But how do you know the second statement is not an artefact of height ? I’m not interested in your opinion. I want to know, in a scientific way, how much height figures in the female perception of masculinity and physical attractiveness — setting aside personality traits for a moment and just concentrating on physical attributes. Just within races one sees all the time that height can compensate for many other physical shortcomings.

        pseudoerasmus

        April 19, 2014 at 7:50 PM

      • Black and Hispanic men are still able to have leverage with women, DESPITE their loser status as being underachievers, because they are lot more alpha and masculine than Asian men, who are more successful, but are seen as boring beta providers….I’ve known SWPL women in NYC who’ve gone out with NAMs who live in the housing projects

        I think the vast majority of white women who go out with blacks of any socioeconomic status (whether housing estate dwellers or successful Caribbean immigrants) are white trash, fat or older.

        pseudoerasmus

        April 19, 2014 at 9:03 PM

      • I do not see how SWPLs would want to hang out with thuggish NAMs. I do think they would like at least a white beta who is willing to use profanity occasionally and effectively for added emphasis, to show irreverence, or to be sarcastically incisive, instead of profusely like many proles do. Many people I know have an aversion to using profanity, particularly because they are religious and want to show propriety, but one should know how to deviate from propriety. Perhaps, the ability to use profanity effectively is correlated with verbal ability.

        But SWPLs are economically successful and have more prestigious occupations. I do not see what a thug NAM could offer.

        Latias

        April 20, 2014 at 12:01 AM

      • @pseudoerasmus

        Audacious had a blogpost breaking down the census data, and Asian men had the highest rate of cohabitation with white women. I and many others were surprised, but you’re right. Once they’re out of college, they have money and some of them pick up basic social skills. Asian men struggle in places like frats, bars and nightclubs but they are the most successful with SWPL women. Prole white women tend to sleep with blacks, imitating the white women on the arm of the black athlete or rapper. SWPL women are in relationships with Asians.

        I think it’s a combination of height, money/status, and being culturally American. There’s just more 2nd generation Asians today who are now Americans and women do not confuse them as being an Asian national. Also SWPL women like smarter and richer guys, so Asian men have that going for them. That’s why blacks struggle will always struggle with SWPLs. The mixed ones have a chance.

        Taylor

        April 20, 2014 at 4:56 AM

      • Yes, most SWPL women wouldn’t date NAMs. However, there is a subset – lower tier SWPL females who would fool around with them on a short term basis, especially younger, early 20s women, who are in their experimental phases. This could be a NYC phenomenon. I remember hearing some of my female SWPL co-workers talk about dating black men, if they were decent enough.

        JS

        April 20, 2014 at 9:43 AM

      • The Columbia University dating experiments confirms the over representation of East Asian males at the Ivy league school as a placebo effect, has no bearing on the judgment of SWPL women when it comes to dating partners.

        They rated Asian men as the least physically attractive, and were more inclined to choose black men, who of course are a minority demographic at the school. This experiment did not control for variables such as height.

        JS

        April 20, 2014 at 9:50 AM

      • But SWPLs are economically successful and have more prestigious occupations. I do not see what a thug NAM could offer.

        In NYC, many striving SWPL women live in close quarters with NAMs. There’s gotta be a few who find alpha thuggish guys attractive for a short term fling.

        JS

        April 20, 2014 at 5:58 PM

  19. I currently develop web applications professionally in Canada and its by far the best job I’ve ever had. I’m well paid , treated well and I enjoy doing it.
    That being said I have no illusions about the possibilities of offshoring. I just keep doing it because I find coding to be quite fun

    richard

    April 19, 2014 at 9:35 AM

  20. Diaosi have no hope of finding a girlfriend, because girls in China are apparently only interested in men who are tall, handsome, and wealthy. Diaosi spend most of their free time playing online computer games.

    Well that would be perfect universal nerd self deception – you make no effort to connect with girls, play video games all day and then say women don’t like you because you’re too nice, or too short, not rich or not a bad boy.

    Perfect.

    Rifleman

    April 19, 2014 at 12:27 PM

  21. Hypergamy is universal. And left to it’s own devices, it has NO LIMIT.

    If the system allows it, women will let a billion of of their brothers wither and die while waiting for one alpha to bless them with some fux. Search your feelings. . .you know it to be true.

    fakeemail

    April 19, 2014 at 1:15 PM

    • I guess we’re heading into that direction. Consumption sex would solve the issue. If you pay money for a happy ending when it comes to other pleasures, why not do it with copulation?

      JS

      April 20, 2014 at 5:42 PM

  22. I’ve lived in Mainland China and worked there as a Biz Analyst/PM, so in IT. Here is what I can tell you. Wages are low. There is an oversupply of programmers because too many people studied that for the market, so in Shanghai the average programmer probably gets only 10,000 rmb month (not much in such an expensive city), I was making 3X that, and over the age of 30, something strange happens…if they don’t move up to management or laterally to some other area (like Systems Analyst, Business Analyst) they disappear. It is rare to see a computer programmer in China over 35, VERY RARE. The reason why is pretty obvious, companies in China focus on cost over quality, and they will hire cheaper younger people and take the hit on quality. It is not just Mainland China, Taiwan is similar, IT job (including programming) are very low pay. Comp Engineers and designers who work on circuit boards are a bit different, but this is also a waning industry in Taiwan as they loose competitiveness to Mainland China, South Korea, Malaysia, etc.

    Since most Mainland Chinese families require a man have a house and a car before they can marry (at least a university educated woman) and property prices around the big cities are similar to U.S. levels or higher (although wages are 1/4 the U.S. level) programming SUCKS. Women know this. If you say you work in IT and you are not a manger, most women don’ t want to talk to you, unless it is a university sweet heart or maybe a peasant girl.

    CA Spears

    April 19, 2014 at 3:03 PM

    • Where oh where could the over 35’s be going? To Silicon Valley?

      Glengarry

      April 24, 2014 at 11:54 AM

  23. If you read in between the lines of the Atlantic article, you may intuit that those who self-identify as “diaosi” are doing so ironically, in the manner of those American hipsters of not so many years ago who took their own ironic pride in wearing hornrim glasses and skinny jeans. The real reason why so many fewer Finance folks, Administrators and (especially) Civil Servants embrace this label is probably because they take themselves way too seriously and consequently have no sense of irony whatsoever, rather than because they are all “tall, rich and handsome”.

    It would be nice if you guys considered this phenomenon with a little humor and sophistication of your own, rather than taking it literally and bemoaning yet again the vile status of IT workers.

    Saskatoon Sammy

    April 24, 2014 at 9:56 AM


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