Lion of the Blogosphere

NY Times article about law school

It’s good that the NY Times is getting out the message that career opportunities for law school graduates suck, especially for those unlucky enough to graduate in the worst year, 2010.

However, I do think it’s a little strange that the guy featured in the article was unable to find any sort of job even though he graduated from Columbia, the fourth-best law school in the country. Maybe he came across as really weird on interview?

* * *

In other law school news, a hundred-year-old law professor is still teaching (or at least he did teach a class last year and he’s technically not retired). So although law school may suck for the students, it’s so incredibly self-actualizing for the professors that they won’t retire from it even though they are 100 years old!

* * *

And then we have the most misinformative article ever for stating that “Among law students graduating this year who previously held summer associate gigs, 93 percent got job offers. That’s the highest offer rate in the last two decades.”

What the article doesn’t tell you is that only a tiny, tiny percentage of law school students are lucky enough to be “summer associates.”

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

April 27, 2015 at 1:18 PM

Posted in Uncategorized

93 Responses

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  1. i graduated from a top 25 law school in 2010. my expected summer associate position evaporated and i had to make other plans and efforts. thankfully, things ended up working out for me in fairly short order and i ended up at medium sized firm that specializes in litigation (i am thankfully a natural-born performing/bullshit artist). although the legal market was (and remains) abysmal for many of my peers, most ARE employed a this point, but probably not doing what they expected to do be doing. they are certainly making less money than expected. as such, i am surprised to hear that 2010 grads have it “the worst.” the crop of grads that came after me seem to also be struggling enormously to find gainful employment. they just aren’t finding positions. period. lots of folks are “hanging out a shingle,” but that rarely works for anyone because of the staggering amount of things that you DON’T KNOW about the practice of law upon graduation. going to law school is a terrible decision for probably 80% of prospective lawyers. to do it over again, even though i make pretty decent money and like my job well enough, i would have probably gone into psychology.

    yeahokcool

    April 27, 2015 at 2:23 PM

  2. As I sit in the law library of a TT state school cramming for CivPro2, I realize my entire life has all been a cruel mistake.

    Shabba_Ranks

    April 27, 2015 at 2:25 PM

    • There’s always GuidoLaw or ProleLaw. Mr. Wang could have been an immigration attorney staking out, getting more Asiatics with H1Bs to work for Silicon Valley.

      JS

      April 27, 2015 at 4:42 PM

    • You can still get out, you know.

      MC

      April 27, 2015 at 9:43 PM

  3. Columbia: Paul Nussenger case and mattress girl
    Dr. Oz on staff
    No jobs for law graduates
    Obstinant Spanish speaking prole staff

    Did someone hear a toilet flushing?

    COLUMBIA= PROLE

    jjbees

    April 27, 2015 at 2:36 PM

    • And they don’t even have a lacrosse team. Ech.

      Renault

      April 27, 2015 at 4:10 PM

    • Don’t forget the shooting of semi-pro videos in Butler.

      Glengarry

      April 27, 2015 at 4:18 PM

    • BIGLAW is oversaturated with qualifiers, as in most areas of law, prole or non-prole. Other Ivy Leagues have their own run ins with prole incidents like Harvard with their male streakers. encountering a group of NAM students protesting the Ferguson case.

      JS

      April 27, 2015 at 4:47 PM

      • Streaking through Lamont and the Yard is not prole, sir.

        Renault

        April 28, 2015 at 2:21 AM

      • Streaking seems to have its origins in England (once again, the degenerate Anglo Prolesphere strikes again), and its practice took off in many American College Campuses in the Mid-60s (this period was marked with a heavy prole drift for the US). The 1960s was when America began to descend into its downward proledom that one sees succinctly today.

        JS

        April 28, 2015 at 9:26 AM

      • Streaking through the Yard and other semi-coordinated flaunting of the law is absolutely not prole. It is an upper-recognition that one can be in disregard of the law or social norms with minimal if any repercussions. Uppers will have fond memories of youthful shenanigans, proles doing the same will be registered as sex offenders.

        Chucks

        May 10, 2015 at 3:09 PM

    • To be fair, it’s not just Columbia. None of the Ivies are WASP schools anymore. They’re all prole.

      Jeremy

      April 27, 2015 at 8:13 PM

  4. I’m waiting for the NYT to put out a similar article on STEM (sarcasm). Science & math are some of the worst fields to get degrees in. And you’ve already written up why programming is not such a good career track.

    Bryan Bell

    April 27, 2015 at 4:04 PM

    • College is a scam. I don’t agree with conservatives on much but education is one where I do. Most people shouldn’t go to college. Most should focus on entrepreneurship.

      Augustus

      April 27, 2015 at 4:55 PM

      • College is not a scam (although the indoctrination is a scam). College is very important for most people. Most people aren’t cut out for entrepreneurship and at many companies you will not get past HR without a college degree. A good idea is to study business or engineering in college for those of an entrepreneural mindset.

        Folks without college have been faring badly, often competing with the flood from beyond our southern border for construction jobs. Indeed life expectancy for whites who did not go to college has been dropping according to figures I’ve seen.

        Dan

        April 28, 2015 at 8:02 AM

      • I agree college is wrong for most people (so is high school); but most so-called Conservatives are in fact on board for the College For Everyone folly, but they want college to be cheaper and to provide its grads with marketable skills.

        But, except in the case of preparation for some, but not all, professions–medicine, engineering, accounting–college provides no marketable skills.

        Jonathan Silber

        April 28, 2015 at 8:44 AM

    • http://engineering.curiouscatblog.net/2009/08/20/sp-500-ceos-engineers-stay-at-the-top/

      Majority Of CEOs Majored In Engineering

      Maybe programming and Math.

      But from my experience at many fortune 500 technology companies most of Upper management + Project managers have engineering degrees.

      Also consider the fact that for every engineering degree awarded around 3 business degrees are awarded

      500k vs 1.7 mil

      I would say that most of these business degree shitheads that make it to the executive suite are nepotism posterboys and not through merit.

      People usually work their way up by solving problems or managing sucessful projects, you can’t expect a non engineer to perform well in that situation because most companies are heavy in technology.

      I would expect this trend to accelerate as businesses continue to get more and more technical.

      Godslayer

      April 27, 2015 at 5:39 PM

      • That’s a laugh. 22% < 50% last time I checked. Oh. And 2 + 2 = 4.

        Qualified engineers are a quarter of MBA students.

        People usually work their way up by solving problems or managing sucessful projects, you can’t expect a non engineer to perform well in that situation because most companies are heavy in technology.

        If only that were true what a wonderful world it would be.

        While the CEO’s have engineering education backgrounds the work they have done is often in other functions. The top function that CEO’s that have worked in during their careers: Operations (42%), Finance (31%), Marketing (24%), Sales (17%), Engineering (11%).

        What a wondeful world…

        ….ohhhhh…

        ….yeahhhhh…

        selecao

        April 28, 2015 at 12:19 AM

      • @ selecao

        22% Of the 1,716,000 bachelor’s degrees conferred in 2010–11, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (365,000), social sciences and history (177,000), health professions and related programs (143,000), education (104,000), and psychology (101,000). At the master’s degree level, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (187,000) and education (185,000). At the doctor’s degree level, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of health professions and related programs (60,200), legal professions and studies (44,900), education (9,600), engineering (8,400), biological and biomedical sciences (7,700), psychology (5,900), and physical sciences and science technologies (5,300).

        8,400 engineering degrees were awarded compared to 365,000 business degrees

        this means that if engineering were proportionally represented then they should be
        8,400/1716000 = 0.00489510489 or .5%

        this means that a engineering degree is 44 times more likely than the avereage graduate to be a CEO

        while for business majors

        365000/1716000 = .21

        they are less likely than the average graduate to be a CEO

        Engineering is a great field of study

        >While the CEO’s have engineering education backgrounds the work they have done is often in other functions. The top function that CEO’s that have worked in during their careers: Operations (42%), Finance (31%), Marketing (24%), Sales (17%), Engineering (11%).

        This is meaningless because most engineers are promoted to upper management and they stop doing engineering….

        Godslayer

        April 28, 2015 at 6:45 PM

      • It’s not meaningless, and you’re very confused.

        There was no indication in your link that more than 11% of engineering qualified hires EVER did ANY engineering.

        As I have read…there is very little need of engineers in the modern value-transference economy…engineering is merely taken as indicative of a smart-enough pushy obedient striver…just as Michael Lewis described a degree in economics…merely a test of ideological purity.

        selecao

        April 28, 2015 at 8:56 PM

      • That should’ve been “engineering qualified CEOs” not “engineering qualified hires”.

        selecao

        April 28, 2015 at 8:58 PM

      • Selecao,

        Moreover, engineering as a “signal that you’re smart” works only if you have a 3.8 gpa or higher on a 4.0 scale. Then value-transference jobs will higher you.

        Otherwise, you’re competing with Third-worlders for all of the engineering work.

        map

        April 30, 2015 at 11:14 AM

    • The engineering part is not bad. There are jobs and newly graduate engineers do get jobs. However, Almost none of those jobs are in NYC. That is why the NY Times does not care.

      superdestroyer

      April 27, 2015 at 6:05 PM

  5. Lion – Mr. Wang is Asian, period, paragraph, case closed!

    Most prestigious fields such as BIGLAW and high Finance, especially in a prestigious location like Manhattan, means only upper middle and upper crust White gentiles/ to certain extent Jews as well with elite credentials, get to dominate the country club scene analogous to most SWPL social gatherings. They will admit a few token minorities, especially black men with some potential. Asians, especially Asian men would hardly register in their consideration process. Why is this hard to understand?

    JS

    April 27, 2015 at 4:40 PM

    • >Why is this so hard to understand

      Because many people believe in the just world hypothesis.

      The reality is that jobs in law, publishing, acting, media, finance are nepotism jobs

      Most asians study engineering and medicine because they realize they have a decent shot of getting employment in these fields and that certain fields are closed off for them due to nepotism.

      Its not a race thing either since a flyover country white would have an even harder time breaking into these fields.

      The only reason biglaw would hire asians and blacks are to get tokens to throw on brochures and make sure they are prominently shown in pictures of company events.

      I know several unemployed asian lawyers, all have the same story top school yet no offers.

      The only asian lawyer I know that is gainfully employed in his chosen field is an asian male that grew up surrounded by elite wasps, has no asian friends and is married to a white girl.

      godslayer

      April 28, 2015 at 7:25 AM

    • I don’t tend to agree with your Asian assessments generally but this is one area where I’m leaning towards a concurrence. The very best lawyers tend to have highly creative minds and they don’t care about being heterodox. The Asian lawyers I’ve worked with were highly intelligent but had a higher than average tendency to want social backing when coming up with strategies, etc. Very by the book. Female lawyers are the same way.

      Curle

      April 28, 2015 at 9:56 AM

      • >The very best lawyers tend to have highly creative minds

        This type of shit is what irks me about HBDers they truly believe that everyone is equal and there is no evidence of racism.

        When resume studies where they take same resumes and change them to either a white, asian or black name the non whites get many times less interviews. I would imagine for prole white names such as cleetus billybob or goose.

        In the technical fields requirements and skill sets are pretty strict you aren’t likely to find an engineer that has experience with gas turbines when doing the hiring for a gas turbine company. So if one comes along you take him even though the department already has 10 of them.

        godslayer

        April 28, 2015 at 7:24 PM

      • “When resume studies where they take same resumes and change them to either a white, asian or black name the non whites get many times less interviews.” ———————

        Resume studies of law job applicants? We are speaking of lawyers and if you have any experience in the field, which I gather you don’t, you’d recognize that the highly intelligent and creative types excel whether their first job was in a great firm or not.

        Curle

        May 1, 2015 at 7:47 PM

    • Actually, if anything, white gentiles are underrepresented in biglaw and finance, while asians are overrepresented, at least in finance. I’m not sure how represented asians are in biglaw.

      Aaron

      April 28, 2015 at 2:29 PM

      • White gentiles are overrepresented in BIGLAW and the most prestigious areas of finance. Jews are over-represented as self employed prole lawyers doing cases that BIGLAW would never touch.

        Jews of course are much more talented than East Asians when it comes forging trends in society.

        JS

        April 28, 2015 at 3:30 PM

      • Jewish self-employed prole lawyers are just more visible because they tend to be in the major, high profile cities. There are plenty of gentile self-employed prole lawyers. They just tend to be in the suburbs and in flyover country. Drive through small towns and rural areas some time. You’ll see plenty of gentile self-employed prole lawyers on the main streets there. The white gentiles tend to be overrepresented in self-employed prole law outside the major cities, and underrepresented in biglaw and finance.

        Aaron

        April 28, 2015 at 6:07 PM

      • >>White gentiles are overrepresented in BIGLAW and the most prestigious areas of finance. Jews are over-represented as self employed prole lawyers doing cases that BIGLAW would never touch.

        You don’t know what you are talking about. Turn the television off. Stop watching Mad Men.

        Daniel

        April 28, 2015 at 6:40 PM

      • I once worked in BIGLAW as a support staff. Majority of the lawyer staff were White Gentile. A few Jews, but there were way more White gentiles with last name like Daniels, Frost and Hutchinson III. Further, many of these guys weren’t even from the NYC Tristate Area, some hail as far as Oklahoma and Texas.

        JS

        April 28, 2015 at 8:36 PM

      • Here’s Skadden Arps, one of the largest law firms in the world.

        Why don’t you comb through the directory to see if Jews dominate BIGLAW?

        http://www.skadden.com/professionals

        JS

        April 28, 2015 at 8:46 PM

      • Not very many Jews in that list, surprising considering that Skadden is known as a Jewish firm. There must be even fewer Jews at more WASPy firms, such as Cravath.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        April 28, 2015 at 9:10 PM

      • >>Not very many Jews in that list,

        I don’t think so. New York based big law attracts the most competent and aggressive candidates from the top U.S. law schools. I just selected G on the alphabetical list. On my judgment I counted 16 Jews out of 37 partners, that’s over 40%. I could have over- or undercounted, but I am in the ball park. What, do Jews have to dominate a profession by, say, 8 to 2 for them to be assured that they are not being discriminated against?

        Every few years the New York Times runs the same feature about a New York lawyer named Raoul Felder. (Felder must have some connection at the Times) Felder practices divorce law. The feature article never fails to assert that Felder only got into divorce law – considered somewhat sleazy – because when he got out of law school in the 1960s white-shoe, corporate, WASP law firms refused to hire grubby little Jews from Brooklyn, like himself, no matter how talented they were.

        Bullshit. For well over 5 decades now, Big Law has been seeking the most intelligent, aggressive and motivated lawyers they can find. And for longer than that it has been well known that Jews are outliers on the right side of the verbal IQ scale. And everybody knows that high verbal IQ is necessary to perform successfully in corporate law. Big Law seeks out smart Jews. Almost certainly, Felder didn’t make it to corporate law because he just wasn’t good enough. Jews like Felder, and the New York Times editor who gives the go ahead for this profile, decade after decade – cannot accept the fact that there exist bland, white bread, fly-over-country WASPs – and lots of them – who are actually smarter, more aggressive and more competent than themselves.

        Daniel

        April 29, 2015 at 5:24 PM

      • Many Jewish prole lawyers in NYC are quite wealthy, and safe to assume quite a number of them do as well as the BIGLAW types. Personal injury lawyers who hit the jackpot winning cases with a payout of 10 million and up, where they get 25% of that. Most people don’t get that kind of money, not even those in Finance.

        JS

        April 30, 2015 at 3:42 PM

      • Dan – I don’t understand the points you are trying to make. Are you saying that Jews are overrepresented in BIGLAW and that Wonder Bread – White gentiles from the Cornfields of Kansas and Mountain Ranges of Bumblef*ck State are just as aggressive, saavy and smart as Gotham City Jews? I can honestly tell you that working as a support staff for a few law firms in the past, both BIGLAW and small proleLaw, that many Jews are overrepresented as lawyers, but fail to hold up a candle to White gentiles in the most prestigious areas of law, which is found only in BIGLAW, where White gentiles dominate, and surprisingly, many of them don’t even come from the Northeast.

        JS

        April 30, 2015 at 3:51 PM

  6. I assume the man portrayed doesn’t have a JD required job because he struck out of Biglaw/federal clerkship. So there was tutoring for $100/hr or take a shitty JD job.

    Augustus

    April 27, 2015 at 4:53 PM

  7. Many have received financial hardship deferments or, like Mr. Shirkey, who accumulated $328,000 in student debt

    WTF! So glad I dropped out of New England School of Law in 1987 after one year in the evening program. Though, back then my defense contractor employer was paying my tuition and had a patent attorney job waiting for me when I graduated. Maybe I should have hung in there.

    Anyway, how can anyone, even a medical specialist accumulate $328K in student loan debt? At least half of this must be for living expenses. I did a BS, MBA, and MS from reputable private and public universities for $15K total tuition; though that’s going back over 15 years.

    E. Rekshun

    April 27, 2015 at 6:00 PM

    • I think you’re right that the $328k figure probably includes a hefty portion of living expenses. However, if one were to attend expensive private institutions for both undergraduate and professional degrees, he could easily accumulate over $200k in tuition expenses alone.

      nebbish

      April 27, 2015 at 10:36 PM

    • Universities were originally founded in out-of-the-way places with the idea that it made the whole operation cheaper. Also this eliminated distractions so the kids could focus on studying. Thereby you avoided situations like insurmountable 328k student loan debt and Mattress Girl.

      Rodolphe Boulanger

      April 28, 2015 at 10:17 AM

    • I would never retain the services of a lawyer whom I knew to have shown the poor judgment of taking on $328,000 of loans for school.

      Jonathan Silber

      April 28, 2015 at 12:11 PM

  8. It can pay well I imagine if you chose a right firm and with some luck. Being an asbestos lawyer or an tobacco litigation lawyer paid well in the 90’s

    grey enlightenment

    April 27, 2015 at 6:45 PM

  9. Recent white law school grads should file a massive race discrimination claim against government entities and public sector unions for conspiring to reserve piblic jobs of all types for blacks. We need some stats on how many whites have been hired in the last 10-15 years.

    hord

    April 27, 2015 at 7:15 PM

    • As far as law goes, there aren’t enough blacks passing the bar to cause much dislocation for better performing whites (at least in states with low bar passage rates, where the bar has set a high barrier). In government employment, whites tend to be displaced in positions where there is no licensing requirement.

      Curle

      May 1, 2015 at 7:55 PM

  10. Historian super-genius and chief Cliodynamician/psychohistorian Peter Turchin has discussed these issues repeatedly. Most law school graduates are losers in the race for elite status. Some of them become bloggers, and some of them become revolutionaries.

    https://evolution-institute.org/blog/bimodal-lawyers-how-extreme-competition-breeds-extreme-inequality/

    Glad I didn’t go law school and instead took out 40,000 in loans for another kind of worthless degree.

    Lion of the Judah-sphere

    April 27, 2015 at 7:24 PM

  11. I think lawyers are crooks. I’ve had three of them representing me in an assault case and every single one turned it into a self defense when it wasn’t what had happened. One left in the middle because she got elected to be a judge and she was teaching me to lie. Aren’t lawyers awful people and law is a disgusting profession? I’m not saying that law isn’t interesting or self-actualizing, but the way it’s practiced is criminal. It’s better to be an honest plumber.

    Yakov

    April 27, 2015 at 7:57 PM

    • It’s more of an issue with ProleLawyers. You know them, the guys who advertise in the media with personal injury issues promising you a big fat jackpot of money if you win!

      JS

      April 27, 2015 at 11:02 PM

    • The people I’ve met who were least respectful of the law were lawyers. But perhaps that is to be expected.

      Glengarry

      April 28, 2015 at 3:48 AM

  12. 1) I’m 29 y/o, law school class of ’11 from a T25 law school. While initially hopeless when I first got out, I can say there are still openings out there. I’ve found success doing oil and gas transactional work and am now riding out the tail end of the boom in that industry.

    2) The guy in the NYT article has a crappy job tutoring the next wave of LSAT takers (these classes are a total scam by the way) because he stayed in Manhattan. The economy in places like Iowa, Minnesota, Utah, Oklahoma and elsewhere (whitopia) is as strong as it has ever been before. Young lawyers who keep student debt to a minimum and are willing to work in smaller markets like these may still have an upper-middle class lifestyle within a few years of finishing school due to less competitive job markets and cheaper cost of living. This is true of other professionals as well, especially those in the health professions. This article mirrors an article you blogged about related to pharmacists struggling to make it in the NYC area. I made the same point about how they were willing to relocate, they could make out okay and even get ahead.

    3) The purpose of a lawyer is to represent people in court and give advice to individuals and businesses, which is what small-town lawyers actually do. At big firms, only the partners do this from what I understand. The big firm associate track seems like a late-20th century invention that we are now reverting away from, back to an earlier paradigm.

    4) What career tracks do you advise kids just starting college to get into? I think engineering, health professions, and programming are all pretty good bets.

    Ava Lon

    April 27, 2015 at 8:27 PM

    • I think there’s going to be an implosion of the entire American job market very soon and everything else that goes along with it, which includes the college scam and the over-inflated housing bubble. I can’t put my fingers around it, just saying that karma is an unexpected bitch and shenanigans will eventually come out to bite the dust.

      JS

      April 27, 2015 at 11:12 PM

      • The question is, how does one profit from this?

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        April 28, 2015 at 7:19 AM

      • Pull out a thick wallet and pick up the worthwhile assets in the ensuing firesale.

        Glengarry

        April 28, 2015 at 7:39 AM

      • Invest in adult diapers, ramen noodles, and video games. More unemployed people means more profit for companies catering to this ever growing market’s needs.

        jjbees

        April 28, 2015 at 9:59 AM

      • ‘how does one profit from this?’

        Or protect your assets from it.

        Curle

        April 28, 2015 at 9:59 AM

      • Commit fraud or rip people off nicely, like Manhattan landlords do with their tenants!

        JS

        April 28, 2015 at 10:50 AM

      • A four-year college is not a scam as far as jobs go. Employers rely very heavily on it as a way to screen people. They aren’t allowed to do aptitude tests, so they need a way to sort people. Few people have undergrad debt exceeding five figures, which is not a big deal if a career is 40 years long.

        Dan

        April 28, 2015 at 3:10 PM

      • The ARE allowed to do aptitude tests, they just don’t believe in them. (Except when hiring computer programmers who are routinely tested as part of the hiring process.) This is a horrible misunderstanding of Griggs v. Duke Power Co., which also held that Duke Power couldn’t require people to have a high school diploma. Remember, the same people who work in HR are the people who voted for Obama.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        April 28, 2015 at 3:21 PM

      • >>The question is, how does one profit from this?

        Take up farming, seriously. We are in a post scarce economy for manufactured goods and services but not for food. We have reached the limits of the green revolution. Stay away from government subsidized agriculture (dairy and grain), don’t take out loans and you will have a nice and rewarding life, away from all the bullshit of urban SWPL America.

        Daniel

        April 28, 2015 at 6:50 PM

      • >The ARE allowed to do aptitude tests, they just don’t believe in them. (Except when hiring computer programmers who are routinely tested as part of the hiring process.) This is a horrible misunderstanding of Griggs v. Duke Power Co., which also held that Duke Power couldn’t require people to have a high school diploma. Remember, the same people who work in HR are the people who voted for Obama.

        Many technical jobs require aptitude tests, even for prole jobs like HVAC or electrician will require a test such as reading a psychometric chart or being able to calculate a heating load while a electrician will require being able to recognize electric symbols and knowing the functions of basic electrical components and their relations.

        Which is why technical jobs are mostly staffed by foreigners, not because of shitty pay but because “White WASP guy” won’t be able to bullshit his way into it unlike for other jobs such as “marketing manager” , Analyst, research assistant etc…

        The white wasp guy that does studies engineering and is actually good at it gets snapped up quickly by top firms and upped into upper management where he manages a bunch of foreigners.

        This is true for candidates with very little work experience for entry level positions.

        Godslayer

        April 28, 2015 at 6:55 PM

  13. Lion, I want to be a firefighter because fire fighters get good pay, benefits, and are “alpha” with the ladies.

    Should I do it?

    AWA4

    April 27, 2015 at 8:38 PM

    • the thing about being a firefighter is it takes incredible balls. if you have the balls, do it. Many don’t.

      Shabba_Ranks

      April 27, 2015 at 11:10 PM

    • It is easier to get a Big Law job than it is to get on the NYC fire department. Harder yet would be to get a job as a Nassau or Suffolk county cop (avg. base + overtime+ benefits is about $180,000/year). Last time Nassau hired there were about 15,000 contenders for about 100 openings. When the cops retire they have a cash value package worth well over $ 2 million.

      Daniel H

      April 27, 2015 at 11:38 PM

    • I’ve described my almost firefighter experience before. In 1983, at 19 y/o, I took my suburban Boston city firefighter civil service exam as a back-up plan to my BS Computer Science. I did well on the exam and a couple of months later I got called into the Mayor’s office where he offered me the $8 per hour job. In 1983, $8 per hour wasn’t bad, but in what would be just the beginning in a long line of career missteps, I turned him down w/ visions of a future lucrative career in corporate America, and finished up my BS CS. A couple of high-school grads that I grew up with that took the test, and were smart enough to accept the job, eventually earned decent salaries ($60K+) and retired in their mid-40s w/ $50K+ per year annual pensions.

      E. Rekshun

      April 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM

    • From the looks of recent events in Black-Lives-Matter Baltimore, demand for firemen should remain strong.

      Jonathan Silber

      April 28, 2015 at 12:17 PM

  14. Did anyone else see the bit about the guy whose only real legal job was with the public defender in Roanoke, VA (i.e., rural Appalachia), is now doing solo criminal defense and teaching at a community college, but STILL hopes to get on with the U.S. Attorney’s Office? What will it take to dispel this guy’s illusions?

    MC

    April 27, 2015 at 9:48 PM

    • believe it or not, I grew up in Roanoke. It’s a hell, but I’m sure the public defender is busy there.

      Shabba_Ranks

      April 27, 2015 at 11:11 PM

  15. My grandfather worked as an attorney well into his 90s. The guy who invented the birth control pill recently died, he had pursued a second career writing plays well into his 90s. Pretty soon retiring will be considered “prole”, unless you actually can’t afford to retire, then you are a lower form of prole.

    Peter Akuleyev

    April 28, 2015 at 4:50 AM

    • Colleges/Universities in America have become prole because they are viewed as vocational schools. This being said, academics who teach in them are dealing with mostly prolish students, because their sole objective at the learning institutions is $$ careers. Many professors hate teaching and love research, and usually want to teach at the graduate level, because those students take their classes seriously. In the near future, undergrad level of studies would be seen as prole as a public school, and academics may only want to take on private students who are genuinely interested in their field of work. But I’m beginning to find intellectual studies boring, because the internet is at your fingertips.

      JS

      April 28, 2015 at 10:47 AM

  16. so what percentage of law students get jobs as summer associates?

    bjdubbs

    April 28, 2015 at 7:50 AM

    • @bjdubbs: Rough estimates, I’m not as up on the legal market as I was when I graduated

      90% plus at Harvard, Yale, and Stanford.

      75-50% at the rest of the top 14 schools (Columbia, U Chicago, NYU, Duke, Penn, UC Berkeley, UVa, Cornell, Northwestern, Michigan, Georgetown)

      There is a steep dropoff outside of the T14.

      25-50% at the rest of the schools in the first tier (top 50).

      0-10% at the remaining 150 schools, with the absolute worst schools probably having zero students on the BIGLAW track.

      Ava Lon

      April 28, 2015 at 4:54 PM

      • Do 90% of YLS kids really go for summer associate jobs? I would think the number would be under 50% with the majority getting summer government, political, or clerkship type roles.

        uatu

        April 28, 2015 at 9:44 PM

      • @uatu

        You are correct that the percentage of YLS students doing summer associate internships is lower due to their emphasis on judicial clerkships and working in government.

        It would be true to say that 90% or more have the opportunity to get into BIGLAW if they chose to pursue that path, on a par with Harvard and Stanford.

        (The point is that the Bloomberg article that Lion’s post linked to is deceptive because hiring rates of summer associates is not as helpful a statistic as how many law students even have the opportunity to get a summer associate position in the first place, which varies wildly from school to school, just one example of many incredibly dishonest tactics I’ve seen law schools use in their publicity.)

        Ava Lon

        April 28, 2015 at 11:59 PM

      • I’d say it’s more like 90%+ at UVA too. Not all of my friends actually accepted their summer offers, but it certainly was the general expectation that a summer associate position would produce an offer.

        Chucks

        May 10, 2015 at 3:11 PM

    • At top law schools, summer associateships are a prerequisite to getting an offer at a firm.

      map

      April 30, 2015 at 11:28 AM

  17. In DC I have dated biglaw women and DOJ women, and without question the DOJ women are more inherently intelligent and interesting.

    Biglaw is prole.

    uatu

    April 28, 2015 at 8:31 AM

    • This being said, much of NYC and the Northeast, I think is prole. Wall St and BIGLAW are infested with hard charging aggressive types, most are not interesting, worldly, classy or even insightful. Further, NYC is perhaps one of the ugliest big cities in the Western Hemisphere. Crusty old buildings, cracked sidewalks, heaps of strewn trash, and just all around not very pleasing aesthetically. But why do people love to romanticize this place and live here, is something I could never figure out.

      JS

      April 30, 2015 at 4:11 PM

      • “Not interesting, worldly, classy, or even insightful…”

        We’re losing this entire class of people that fits this description.

        Millenials tend to conform to either mindless careerism or the reigning SJW mental illness, both of which are deeply anti-intellectual.

        McFly

        May 1, 2015 at 12:24 AM

  18. Related to higher education, I read this other article last week about being poor and attending Ivy league schools. In summary, intelligence aside, poor people don’t fit in due to the different behavioural traits socializing, schmoozing, vacationing, among other things. It even looks like some middle-class people have a hard time ‘fitting in’. So no matter if you can get into an Ivy league schoold, it appears you can still be ostracized if you are from a prole or middle-class background.

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2015/04/09/what-like-poor-ivy-league-school/xPtql5uzDb6r9AUFER8R0O/story.html

    rightwingnut

    April 28, 2015 at 11:32 AM

    • Ivy League is still an excellent decision for poor whites since they can learn the mannerisms and behaviors of their classmates. Or at least absorb enough of it to fool people.

      After they graduate they may be able to get into a top firm by “faking” being a elite despite coming from a prole background.

      For Blacks and Hispanics it is also worth it because affirmative action means you will quickly get snapped up by a large company since so few blacks go to elite schools.

      For asians if they are foreign and plan to go back to their country its a good idea. For asian americans its probably a bad idea because they won’t be able to get elite jobs since there are more asians from elite schools than jobs for token asian elites.

      By elite jobs I mean things such as Marketing, Banking, Publishing, film, Art etc… the types of jobs that children of extremely rich people tend to pursue.

      Godslayer

      April 28, 2015 at 7:03 PM

      • You mean the types of jobs that can be done by people of average or below average intelligence, as opposed to STEM which requires considerably more acumen.

        Robert

        April 29, 2015 at 3:21 PM

  19. Lion, I thought you might be interested in this link which shows that Qatar is buying up huge parts (and many of the iconic parts) of London. This hasn’t been reported on at all: https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/how-london-is-being-sold-off-to-qatar/

    JC

    April 28, 2015 at 1:01 PM

  20. A couple of people I work with at the Major Home Improvement Retailer, college students who work there part-time, are considering law school. There’s probably nothing I could say that might get them to change their minds.

    Peter

    ironrailsironweights

    April 28, 2015 at 5:50 PM

    • They’d be better off simply finishing their 4-year degree and make a career at the Major Home Improvement Retailer – those store managers earn over $100K, and they deserve it. Either that or parlay the experience they’re getting into construction management or mastering a trade. Or, they could always take the firefighter exam as a back-up plan.

      E. Rekshun

      April 29, 2015 at 5:33 AM

  21. The white wasp guy that does studies engineering and is actually good at it gets snapped up quickly by top firms and upped into upper management where he manages a bunch of foreigners.

    Lion, can you write about this? I believe it’s called the bamboo ceiling or something. I’ve noticed that, all it takes for a clean cut white guy is to simply not be a total fuckup, and people will bend over backwards to put them at the top.

    There really is a bi-modal attitude towards white males. It’s either HATE HATE HATE or LOVE LOVE LOVE.

    jjbees

    April 28, 2015 at 8:31 PM

    • I think white wasp guys that study engineering and are good at it move over to VC/PE/HF.

      Indians stay in industry and climb the corporate ladder. MS and Adobe are run by indians and if Page/Brin/Schmidt don’t want to ever run Google, Pichai or Arora would be next.

      uatu

      April 28, 2015 at 9:41 PM

  22. Mr. Lion

    Reasons for optimism?
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-29/career-prospects-for-lawyers-improve-as-fewer-compete-for-jobs

    Could the legal profession be subject to the Schweinzyklus (Pork Cycle)

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweinezyklus
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pork_cycle

    This may play a role, but I suspect the profession is suffering from something more than a cyclical condition. Secular changes in the market probably mean automation of much of the work.

    IBM’s Dr. Watson will eventually breed Watson Esq. to infringe on that turf.

    Thin-Skinned Masta-Beta

    April 29, 2015 at 9:04 PM

    • I guess you didn’t read my post.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      April 29, 2015 at 9:23 PM

      • “The class of 2014 had 6.5 percent fewer graduates than 2013’s, when ABA-accredited schools recorded the largest-ever graduating class at around 47,000. If law schools keep class sizes down next semester—likely, given how few people have applied at this point; would-be lawyers will have continued reason for optimism.”

        One year doesn’t make a trend, but if the decline in supply is sustained, it could eventually have an impact on market price for starting lawyers.

        What would be an interesting chart is the number of graduates by law school tier. I suspect the top tiers haven’t been reducing enrollment. The decline is probably only at the bottom feeder schools.

        Thin-Skinned Masta-Beta

        April 29, 2015 at 9:56 PM

  23. I think people confuse the practice of engineering with the pedigree of engineering. Engineering has a storied history with many accomplishments to its name, but this is not the same as a newly minted engineering graduate just starting out. Such people have not done anything. Sure, they may know how all the existing technology is built, but they are not responsible for the techs creation, tech that has already been woven seamlessly into society.

    In fact, engineering firms stay in business by maintaining sales to customers who are usually not engineers themselves and neither understand nor appreciate the tech they are using. They just want it to work to accomplish some limited tasks. They have user bases of non-technical people to maintain, which means innovation is very conservative, limited and cost-conscious. This would imply that modern engineering practice is all about maintenance, tweaking, improvements at the margin, rather than the romantic sweep of major innovations that places like Google advertise. Furthermore, regulations also limit what engineers can design.

    This is why it seems so easy for companies to replace engineers with Third-Worlders, people who come from countries that can’t maintain sewage systems but somehow have engineering training to staff First-World companies. Most engineering is, in practice, just maintenance work but engineering is taught as if every engineer will go into research.

    map

    April 30, 2015 at 11:49 AM

    • Maybe for entry level engineers. But after 5 years or more of experience you are going to writing specifications and be making critical decisions.

      10 different parts made by 10 different companies and you need to decide which to use based on cost and risk of failure or modifications that need to be made to make the part work.

      For technical sales you often need to learn an entire suite of technical products and answering technical questions about them.

      All of this requires a decent iq and a idiot wont be able to bullshit. In example number one idiot chooses the wrong valve and now has to deal with backflow damaging his pumps.

      Example number 2 idiot sales engineer makes a wrong valve recommendation for client when he had another one in his product suite that would doyou the job better due to not having a good understanding of the application.

      3rd worlders can become engineers because of selective immigration. The nigerian that immigrates to the usa is probably 2 sd higher in iq.

      They can’t maintain sewage systems because the average worker quality is low and even something as simple as a sewer system requires a lot of engineering.

      godslayer

      May 1, 2015 at 9:45 AM


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