Lion of the Blogosphere

Go to college

The commenter “map” writes:

Lion, not to berate Yakov because I genuinely like his posts, but I think this meme that has spread across the right-wing blogosphere of college being such a waste is ultimately very destructive. It ignores one salient fact: it is almost impossible to find any decent job that does not require a college degree. College is not some marginal value calculation where you can measure the cost-benefits of college returns against not going to college. College is the baseline. Non-college grads do not compete with college grads for the same jobs or even in the same markets in any meaningful way. Corporate HR departments at firms of all sizes screen-out non-college grads. They fire people who have lied about getting degrees, even if their work output was exemplary.

In other words, the entire work culture is oriented around the college degree. That is not going to change anytime soon.

Yet, people on this blog and others are seriously advising not going to college? Is this what they would tell their own children?

I definitely love Yakov’s blue-collar point of view, and I’m genuinely happy for him that he likes his career in HVAC, but I completely agree with Map’s comment.

1. If your IQ is 1SD above the mean or higher, you are unlikely to enjoy the company of your average-IQ co-workers in a blue-collar profession.

2. I am doubtful about how easy it supposedly is to make good money in certain trades that are commonly presented as better deals than white-collar work. If something sounds too good to be true, then it’s probably not true, and making twice as much money as the average college graduate without having to go to college, that sounds too good to be true. There must be barriers to entry which prevent people from entering those fields, although I am not familiar enough with that sort of work to say exactly what they are, but my guess would be that it’s extremely difficult to find an entry-level job that allows you to get the experience you need to make the higher salaries. And I don’t know whether or not having a higher IQ than the average member of the profession makes it easier to get that entry-level job. Maybe it’s more important to have connections?

3. Blue-collar work is dirty (like a plumber dealing with old pipes that literally are full of crap) and often done outside where it would be broiling hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter. Doesn’t it sound a lot more pleasant to sit at a desk? And blue collar work is often dangerous to your health. For example, auto mechanics have to breathe in carcinogenic and toxic aromatic petroleum distillates all day.

4. The elites know how society really work and they want their kids to also be part of the elite. That’s why they send their kids to college, and not just any college but the best college their kids are able to get admitted to.

As Map points out above, it’s impossible to get into any white collar work without a college degree. No one will hire you, so you won’t find any white collar job unless your parents own the company. And parents who own companies have their kids go to college anyway. For example, all of Donald Trump’s kids went to college at Penn (Trump’s alma mater) or Georgetown, even though they could all theoretically work in the family business without a college degree.

So why do some commenters at conservative blogs push such an obviously wrong meme?

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

August 31, 2015 at 2:32 pm

137 Responses

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  1. “Maybe it’s more important to have connections?”

    About three years ago I was in college but thinking about joining up in a trade because I was so broke and apprentices are supposed to be able to get a half way decent wage for their experience level while on the program. But I looked around with the unions in my area that offered apprenticeships and checked on outline forums where there’s a lot of discussion on the different fields’ apprenticeship process for different geographical areas, and for all the topics on the programs around my city (and it seemed most others) the consensus was generally that they get so many applications and it’s a long shot unless you know someone. I suspect it’s more difficult to get into a good trade apprenticeship than people suspect.

    Conservative commentators’ boosting for trades vs. college is largely an ideological thing due to colleges being so overtly left-wing.

    chairman

    August 31, 2015 at 2:59 pm

    • You are right about that. I suspect I got into the plumbers union only because I am a veteran.

      Jumpin Jack Fash

      August 31, 2015 at 7:51 pm

    • @chairman: they get so many applications and it’s a long shot unless you know someone.

      Yes, I think this is true. I’ve told my story before about my one shot with the MA Sheetmetal Workers Union. Back in the early ’80s as I was studying for my BS Computer Science, my girlfriend’s father showed me his ’83 W-2 statement – he earned $65K that year as a union sheetmetal worker. He tried to encourage me to drop out of college and he’d get me an apprenticeship in the union, where I would also join his two sons that were recently out of high school. Thinking that I was one day on my way to the executive ranks of a high tech company like IBM, I declined his offer. He and both of his sons enjoyed lucrative 30-year careers, regularly earning well over $100K per year, and retired in their late 40s with gold-plated union health care and lifetime pensions.

      E. Rekshun

      August 31, 2015 at 8:53 pm

    • “Conservative commentators’ boosting for trades vs. college is largely an ideological thing due to colleges being so overtly left-wing.”

      As usual, it depends. If you are going to college for a specific profession like medicine or engineering, college is a good deal. If you are going to college at an elite school with plenty of contacts, college is a good deal. If you are going into debt for 100K at a state school with a nondescript social science or liberal arts degree, that’s hard to justify financially.

      Mike Street Station

      September 1, 2015 at 9:24 am

  2. This is mostly true. My wife has some non-college friends, who are nice and not dumb, but they are screwed in the labor market. But it depends partly on other things than IQ. I have a very smart plumber relative who is affluent and happy. He grew up in the restaurant business, and is a killer cook also. I don’t think he could tolerate a desk job. I have another super smart relative, I estimate his IQ at 140+, and he did great with his dad’s trades business and flipping houses. I don’t think he could do a desk job either. Believe it or not some intelligent people can’t stand doing stupid stuff in an office all day.

    But, these guys are very smart (I emphasize), self-motivated, independent personalities. If you are just a regular person and can’t build a business, trades won’t be that great for you. An office won’t be that great for you either, but you can avoid dirt.

    There is a novel titled “The Chronicles of Doodah” about office work, and I found it spot-on. Unclogging toilets is pretty unpleasant, but there are worse things to deal with than feces

    thrasymachus33308

    August 31, 2015 at 3:00 pm

    • My very bright nephew saw his math-degreed dad get kicked to the curb at age 51 by Big Corp, and so went into the building trades instead. He used his GI loans for 2 years at a community college that taught all the trades, while working with roofing crews and whatnot. He right away went into business for himself, and hit the ground running, doing high end remodeling and probably some flips too. I only wish he’d finally get married and spawn some smart kids too.

      Mrs Stitch

      August 31, 2015 at 5:53 pm

      • @Mrs Stitch: My very bright nephew saw his math-degreed dad get kicked to the curb at age 51 by Big Corp

        Yes, I’m in my early 50s and this concerns me too. I’m trying to somehow become invisible and hang in there, building my next egg, until 55.

        As LotB explains, this is another good reason to be sure to get on a lucrative and solid career track very early in one’s career.

        E. Rekshun

        September 1, 2015 at 5:23 am

    • “Unclogging toilets is pretty unpleasant, but there are worse things to deal with than feces”

      There’s a lot of jobs out there where you gotta deal with other people’s shit.

      Al

      August 31, 2015 at 9:32 pm

  3. Conservative blogs have pushed the anti-college meme because they see academia as a bastion of liberalism, and therefore the enemy. The more elite the insitution, generally, the more liberal it is, as is the case with the Ivies. They then work to discredit said universities. In addition to appealing to conservative populism it also feeds into the Republican myth that hard work is the cure all for all the poor’s problems. As you noted in your post, elites know that this isn’t true and so they work as hard as they can to get their kids into elite schools. If someone tells you that a state school is a “better value” than going to Princeton there is a 99% chance they are a conservative.

    Elites understand that a college education is essentially prole insurance. This is because they know that money isn’t everything and know that their children would probably be lead a more enriching and self actualizing life making 50k as a cubicle slave after going to a decent college than 100k a year on an oil well in some god forsaken place.

    B.T.D.T.

    August 31, 2015 at 3:00 pm

  4. Strongly agree with this. A lot of blue-collar people are capable and hard working. Therefore, they become successful. And someone who knows how to run a business can be successful in either a blue-collar or a white-collar field.

    But let’s be honest – there is a lot of competition for blue-collar work. A lot. Factory jobs are pretty much gone. If you’re in the trades, you face competition from illegal aliens. 30 years ago the guys who hung sheetrock, painted houses, and laid tile were all native-born Americans. Now illegals do all of those jobs. Before long second-generation Hispanics will be working in more skilled blue-collar trades, like plumbing and electrical. I’m sure they’re moving into fields like trucking already.

    white-collar work isn’t quite as affected by that kind of competition. Many of the children and grandchildren of illegal aliens will go to state universities eventually, but it’ll be 30 years before they start competing for white-collar jobs in large numbers. Even here in California, there are very few Hispanic lawyers. Hispanics have been here for centuries, and started coming in very large numbers in the late 1970s, but as of 2015 not too many of them go to law school. Many of those who do attend tend to be the children of wealthy Hispanic doctors and lawyers. there has been a massive influx of Hispanic immigrants, legal and illegal, into California over the past 40 years. All of those immigrants can lay tile and drive trucks but few of them take the bar exam or the CPA exam.

    And not all blue-collar work pays well. If you don’t know how to run a business and work as a contractor, you may going to be stuck earning low-wage. Home Depot employs plenty of journeyman tradesmen in their 50’s who couldn’t succeed as contractors. Now they make 10 or 12 bucks an hour wearing an orange apron. They know just as much about plumbing and electrical work as the guys who are successful contractors, but their lack of business savvy means that they don’t earn as much money.

    Also, in my experience a lot of the “wealth” accumulated by contractors is borrowed, just like wealth accumulated by many people in white-collar professions. Many of the contractors who live in exurban McMansions and drive big dually pickup trucks that tow boats and jet skis are leveraged up to their eyeballs, just like the dentists and mortgage brokers who drive around in Lexus convertibles.

    Also, construction is a boom and bust business. If you are good at what you do you’ll survive the down times, just like people in other professions, but your income can take a HUGE hit once the building boom stops. A lot of white-collar work is subject to boom and bust cycles too, but not to the same extent as blue-collar work.

    Finally, education really can be valuable in and of itself. It does make you a more literate and informed person. And there is something to be said for having what it takes to get through four years of college. Yes, the curriculum at the university level has been dumbed down a lot and seldom teaches anything practicalAnd yes, a degree in sociology or communications is far easier to earn than a degree in electrical engineering. Nonetheless, it does take some gumption to get up and go to class every day. Many people don’t have that gumption, even at colleges that aren’t academically demanding, and the fact that someone has earned a college degree does signal something useful.

    Conversely, a lot of blue-collar work does not require you to exhibit that kind of gumption. If you are a druggie you can work as a house painter or landscaper. It’s a lot harder to make it through four years of college if you have serious personal problems like that.

    I attended a high school in a lower middle-class Midwestern suburb. several of my high school classmates got blue-collar jobs. The guys who were stupid but responsible generally did quite well. My friend Eric was in remedial classes all through high school because he wasn’t very smart. But he is reliable, diligent, and capable of learning, so he went to some kind of training program provided by General Motors and got a job as a mechanic working at a car dealership. Today he does quite well, he’s not rich but he owns a house and has a family. Similarly, Brian, got a job working at the local suburban fire department. He too was diligent and responsible, so he does well. Conversely, the blue-collar guys with drug problems, and the guys who dropped out of college, tended to be screwups. About 3/4 of them got their acts together eventually and are doing all right, but the others are still fuckups in their mid-40’s.

    The other reason to avoid blue-collar work is because blue-collar people tend to exhibit more social pathologies than white-collar people. Lots of drug use, single motherhood, getting arrested for failing to pay child support, etc., etc. sure, there are nice blue-collar girls out there, but I don’t really want my boys to marry a blue-collar woman because there is a higher likelihood that she’ll suffer from social dysfunction.

    As stated above you can definitely be successful in blue-collar work. and in some ways, working as a plumber is more honest than selling mortgages or working in a cubicle and stabbing one’s coworkers in the back. But it’s crazy to mythologized blue-collar work as superior to white-collar work. All else being equal, your kids are better off going to college. they can always work in the blue-collar field after earning their degree. For example, my mechanic is a chemical engineer. He is a Vietnamese immigrant who got bachelor’s and masters’ degrees from a third-tier state university and, after graduation, realized that he could do better operating a garage, so that’s what he did. Now he has two locations and employs 10 mechanics. Until a few months ago he owned the property where one of his two locations was located, until the city bought it in an eminent domain proceeding to make way for a shopping center. Of course his kids are going to college. Even if they decide to work for the family business someday, he wants them to have that credential.

    Joe Schmoe

    August 31, 2015 at 3:12 pm

    • “Finally, education really can be valuable in and of itself. It does make you a more literate and informed person. ”

      The dream of the liberal education. And look at it now.

      As I see it, there are in practice not many students who take the opportunity to become more literate and informed except in a pro forma sense. And you can even do this yourself without being at university. Indeed, after you have your sheepskin, you are assumed to be able to do so. Well, for some degrees at least.

      Most students seem instead to be content to be philistines, regardless of degree, and regardless of whether they have decided to fund a new entrance to the Met or whatever.

      Glengarry

      August 31, 2015 at 4:57 pm

    • A dentist can afford a Lexus convertible.

      We have the same problem in this discussion we have in discussing college degrees. Blue collar jobs are not all the same – you need a much higher level of skill and intelligence to be an ASE mechanic than to mow lawns. A lot of the jobs we’re discussing, like gardening or sheetrock, are more like “tank-top” jobs. I’m not sure I’d call something a high school dropout can be taught to do in one afternoon blue collar.

      Your most important point is on the signaling effect of a college degree. Even an academically worthless degree demonstrates the ability to show up and get work done, and trite as it is, the adage that X% of life is just showing up has a lot of truth to it.

      The filtering effect is important too. As a practical matter, you don’t need a college degree to be an airline pilot, but because of the volume of applicants, getting hired has historically required a STEM degree, a pristine personal history, and a specialized military background. The effective degree requirement has moved into a lot of occupations that historically didn’t require one, and that’s only going to accelerate – eventually into the blue collar jobs we’re talking about.

      J1

      August 31, 2015 at 6:56 pm

    • “Before long second-generation Hispanics will be working in more skilled blue-collar trades, like plumbing and electrical.”

      Anecdotally… this week I had a plumber and an electrician come to the house.

      The plumber was a Hispanic who could barely speak and understand English. Still, he got the job done.

      The electrician was a white guy in his late 20s who went to college but decided that office jobs sucked, so he became an electrician.

      Tarl

      August 31, 2015 at 7:39 pm

  5. “1. If your IQ is 1SD above the mean or higher, you are unlikely to enjoy the company of your average-IQ co-workers in a blue-collar profession.”

    Not likely you will enjoy the company of your average-IQ co-worker with a degree from DeVry University, Everest University or ITT Tech either, but they are out there in droves. IIRC perhaps as much as 30% of recent college graduates have a degree from an open-admission school (meaning all you need for admission is the money a federal subsidy and a GED) many of them for-profits. Many even go on to obtain Masters and PhDs from such places. I’m under the impression that a lot of HR training people have degrees from such places. http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/02/the-downfall-of-for-profit-colleges/385810/

    Curle

    August 31, 2015 at 3:30 pm

  6. “If your IQ is 1SD above the mean or higher, you are unlikely to enjoy the company of your average-IQ co-workers in a blue-collar profession.”

    And if you’re a male in a lot of white collar professions nowadays, you’re unlikely to enjoy the company of your female, gay, or SJW coworkers.

    Sgt. Joe Friday

    August 31, 2015 at 3:31 pm

    • I came in here to post this. My IQ was high enough to get a 40 on the MCAT–no idea how far above the mean that is–and I don’t enjoy the company of my medical co-workers, because so many of them are smug, sanctimonious, lefty SWPLs. Of course, I don’t enjoy the company of average IQ proles, either. If you’re an intelligent conservative, you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

      Hermes

      August 31, 2015 at 8:17 pm

      • Medicine wasn’t always a lefty SWPL profession. It certainly wasn’t when my father was in training 50 years ago. Increasing government dependence of the profession, admission of large number of females, and reconfiguring admissions committees to include community representatives biased towards touchy-feely applicants are probably to blame.

        nebbish

        August 31, 2015 at 11:51 pm

    • only if you’re a prole male, in which case, trades would definitely be the way to go. educated swpl males tend to get along well with females, gays, and “sjw” coworkers.

      GM

      September 1, 2015 at 7:22 pm

  7. “If something sounds too good to be true, then it’s probably not true, and making twice as much money as the average college graduate without having to go to college, that sounds too good to be true. There must be barriers to entry which prevent people from entering those fields,”

    I wouldn’t assume that. Everyone is so brainwashed that you need to go to college and all smart people end up believing it. So some “too good to be true” paths are probably out there.

    By the way, you ever watch Shark Tank? All these people have these simple ideas that probably don’t require an IQ over 105 that make you hit your head and wonder why you didn’t think of it first.

    Hepp

    August 31, 2015 at 3:31 pm

  8. In some cases, the blue-collar contractor can make it LOOK like he is making more because he gets paid ca$h and large amounts (though sporadic). Especially when he gets on a hot streak.

    Meanwhile, his un-self-actualized cube-job wife has the same boring amount direct-deposited to checking every 2 weeks, and most regular bills are deducted from her earnings since it’s the dependable, predictable amount.

    If hubby is doing so well, then why can’t his wife scale back on hours when she wants to? Hmmm…

    A friend of mine has a side cash job that amounts to about 15% of his income, but he always talks about it like “make it rain!” and mentions how he can pay cash for most routine expenditures. It’s psychological.

    Fiddlesticks

    August 31, 2015 at 3:40 pm

  9. Well, we all understand that college degrees are proxies for the IQ tests that companies are not legally allowed to give. College itself is a racket, and the more idealistically minded on the Right want to push back on it. Well meant, but as you say, impractical because society isn’t going to change it’s ways anytime soon.

    It would be interesting to see The Donald comment on this whole question. In fact, I’ve been wondering if he will ever go full HBD and come out with a comment like, “We can’t keep letting these black and brown people pour into America because they have lower IQs that are bringing down our country.” (I am 100% certain he knows and understands this to be the case.)

    If he ever said this — the ultimate unspeakable thing in America today — the resulting slop storm would probably be the biggest media frenzy of all time. I doubt even the Teflon Don could survive it. But man, it would be something to see him try.

    peterike

    August 31, 2015 at 3:45 pm

    • “Well, we all understand that college degrees are proxies for the IQ tests that companies are not legally allowed to give.”

      This statement is extremely misleading. More untrue than true.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      August 31, 2015 at 4:15 pm

      • Lion, I agree but what is your viewpoint on that?

        Also, what’s your view on state Honors colleges i.e. ‘public Ivies’ like New College of Florida or Geneseo in SUNY?

        rob

        August 31, 2015 at 5:38 pm

      • “Public Ivy” is an oxymoron.

        State schools with low tuition are a better deal than low-tier private schools. For example, SUNY Stony Brook is a better school than Hofstra and in-state tuition is only one-quarter ther price. Hofstra is a big rip-off.

        But SUNY Stony Brook is a bad deal compared to Columbia University.

        NYU, that’s a school on the borderline between being a legit higher-tier school and being a big rip-off. NYU is a tough call.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        August 31, 2015 at 5:46 pm

      • Sure they are ‘allowed’ to give such tests but they don’t. Even the feds quit giving the civil service exam decades ago iirc which is perhaps one reason the quality of federal employees plummeted (my impression). I’m assuming, as a practical matter, HR departments determined that it would be racist to test for intelligence so they don’t. That leaves you with the college degree which tells you, in the case of competitive colleges, the average SAT/ACT score for incoming freshmen. http://www.stateuniversity.com/rank/sat_75pctl_rank.html. Which raises the question, is it wise to include membership in a High IQ society on your resume?

        Curle

        August 31, 2015 at 5:43 pm

      • What about the Specialized High Schools Admission Test needed to attend Stuyvesant High School? Isn’t that an IQ test?

        jef

        August 31, 2015 at 9:30 pm

      • De Blasio hates that test.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        August 31, 2015 at 10:54 pm

      • @ Lion –

        What do you think about small New England liberal arts colleges like Amherst, Bowdoin and Williams? As good as lower Ivies or below all Ivies in terms of prestige and life outcomes?

        nebbish

        September 1, 2015 at 12:04 am

      • Amherst and Williams are as good as lesser Ivies like Brown or Cornell.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        September 1, 2015 at 8:43 am

      • Lion, FYI more on that New College of Florida, which people insist on calling the Public Ivy Yale. From alumni list:

        The top graduate or professional schools attended by New College graduates included the Johns Hopkins University the University of Florida, the University of Wisconsin, the University of Chicago, Columbia University, American University, Carnegie Mellon University, Yale University, and the New School for Social Research. [32]…

        Among the most prominent New College graduates are president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York William Dudley; Ambassador Nancy McEldowney, Law Professor Anita L. Allen, named to the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues; civic leader and environmental researcher Jono Miller; national Telemundo anchor Jose Diaz-Balart; founder of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies Rick Doblin; bestselling author of Getting Things Done David Allen (author); Emmy-award-winning TV writer/producer Carol Flint; former U.S. Representative Lincoln Diaz-Balart; CEO of Barnie’s Coffee & Tea Jonathan Smiga; professor of law and director for Cumberland School of Law’s Center for Biotechnology, Law, and Ethics David M. Smolin; mathematician and Fields Medalist William Thurston; internet personality Merlin Mann; cinematographer Ryan Francis White; singer-songwriter Jaymay; and pop punk band The Dollyrots.

        Jim

        September 2, 2015 at 4:22 pm

      • There are only three public schools that stand out above all other public schools: Berekely, Univ of Michigan Ann Arbor, and UVA. And they are still not Ivy.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        September 2, 2015 at 5:31 pm

  10. Society may indeed be set up to work this way. However, there are many traps for the unwary prospective white collar worker. Going to a bad but expensive college means spending a fortune on nothing. Failing out of college (still possible outside the Ivy League I hear) means spending a fortune on nothing. Getting the wrong major means spending a fortune on nothing, with no prospects. Getting on the wrong career track means you will still have a hard time after spending a fortune on nothing.

    If you’re going into a safe make work field like HR, do you really need the fully loaded campus experience? Or would it be enough to do some online degree or night school or whatever? Ugh, you’re still just a prospective HR worker who has to figure out this maze of BS to get (the chance of) a reasonable job at a reasonable price. Why does it have to be so hard? It’s not like the job is hard.

    Finally, regarding uncredentialed white collar work, I hear IT still sponges up the youthful but talented without necessarily needing a college degree … lasting until they have been wrung dry and can be cast off around age 40 as detailed by our blog owner in olden days. (Note that even if you have the credentials you’ll still be discarded.)

    Glengarry

    August 31, 2015 at 3:53 pm

    • Most of the non-college-graduate computer programmers tend to be unpleasant people to socialize with.

      On the other hand you generally don’t need to be especially smart or need a college degree to do “help desk” type of IT work. Those people are just boring people, although not unpleasant.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      August 31, 2015 at 4:16 pm

      • Surely the college graduate programmer is no more socially adept than the typical engineer? I assume they too spent their evenings and nights in the lab rather than chatting up business majors.

        Glengarry

        August 31, 2015 at 5:04 pm

      • Would you be willing to do a blog post about boring/interesting people and class?

        Rahnama Rashān

        September 1, 2015 at 7:20 am

  11. Surgeons, dentists, dermatologists and the like have to deal with disgusting stuff and foul odors that are a thousand times worse than anything to be found in an old sewage pipe. Guess were crap comes from…
    A lot of high IQ professionals have to deal with stupid and problematic employees, customers, patients, students, defendants, etc. on a daily basis.

    Your third point speaks about your own personal biases that aren’t necessarily representative. Reality shows about blue collar work are popular. Are there any reality shows about office work? A lot of guys would love to work outside and get their hands dirty. Tyler Cowen linked a survey about this a while back, but I can’t find it.

    Car mechanics who cater to rich people can make a lot of money with classic cars and sports cars. My guess is that if you are smart and enterprising you can more predictably run a successful blue collar business, find a lucrative niche for yourself and retain most of the value you create. But if you just want a regular job and career then white collar is still the way to go.

    acolyte

    August 31, 2015 at 4:03 pm

    • “Are there any reality shows about office work? A lot of guys would love to work outside and get their hands dirty. ”

      There was “The Apprentice.” Sort of.

      That aside, I think that most people, inherently, like to do work that feels like they are creating real value.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      August 31, 2015 at 4:19 pm

      • Reality shows? I enjoyed The Office.

        Glengarry

        August 31, 2015 at 5:05 pm

      • The Office is a scripted show.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        August 31, 2015 at 5:20 pm

      • The Office ridicules corporate white collar work. So did the movie Office Space, which – spoiler alert – actually ended with the main character becoming a construction worker.

        acolyte

        August 31, 2015 at 5:49 pm

      • “The Office is a scripted show”

        Agreed, but probably not significantly more than the average reality show.

        J1

        August 31, 2015 at 10:37 pm

      • On a “reality” show, the participants are told what they should do, then it’s ad-libbed.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        August 31, 2015 at 11:01 pm

      • The Office had good professional actors. They were just improvising over a script, similar to Curb Your Enthusiasm. The “Wernham Hogg Paper Company” and the “Dunder Mifflin Paper Company” don’t exist. The actors only pretended to work.

        Blue collar reality shows have no actors or just failed ones. The businesses actually exist. They are really digging for gold, fixing cars, driving trucks and fishing crabs on a real ship. Value is actually created on these shows. Some film crews hang out for months on the job sites. The repetitive aspects of the work are cut out. Difficulties and drama are emphasized or artificially introduced.

        Over time the documentary aspect of these shows decreases and the entertainment and show aspect take over. The proles on the shows develop acting skills, acumen for generating ratings through drama and turn into small celebrities.

        acolyte

        September 1, 2015 at 4:27 am

    • I watch a lot of those car shows on the Velocity Channel. They are interesting, but I get the sneaky feeling that these are scripted programs that look like reality shows but really aren’t.

      Still, the shows do present what would otherwise seem like the very upper-crust of blue-collar work. You have designers, fabricators, mechanics, welders, sheet-metal workers…essentially the very high-end of trade work doing intricate jobs for demanding clients.

      One of the things that I have noticed is that these blue-collar guys are very well-spoken and come off as very intelligent. Of course, they are usually the owners. If you want to see what the environment is really like, then look at the workers in the background. Those are the kind of people that you will have to deal with and I doubt they are making that much money.

      What I have also noticed is the dearth of anyone with an actual mechanical engineering degree. You would think that any such shop would employ at least one, instead of relying on experienced metalworking techniques. After all, engineers are the people who built this stuff in the first place. Yet, no shop actually has one.

      Yes, it’s visually impressive to watch a mechanic take apart the Corvette’s LS small-block engine and do all kinds of modifying tricks to it. Yes, it’s flashy to see TIG welding in action.

      But you know what else is flashy? Watching the Corvette get manufactured on a show called “How It’s Made”. Did you know that the Corvette uses sonic welding?

      Yes…SONIC WELDING.

      These shows are popular because they lend themselves well to a television medium. Besides, everyone loves cars.

      Still, go to college.

      map

      August 31, 2015 at 9:59 pm

  12. This is why I want to reduce legal and illegal immigration. Not having a college education shouldn’t be punishment. If people are to have miserable jobs, they should at least pay well. So let’s tighten up the labor market and drive up wages. I know of many people who were smart enough to go to college and didn’t. I know guys who were in the gifted program and did not go to college.

    Dave

    August 31, 2015 at 4:05 pm

  13. Pretty much agree – if you want a high-paying job – doctor, biglaw partner, banker, corporate executive, scientist, engineer, accountant, hedge fund bandito, etc., a degree, preferably from a high quality university, and probably an advanced degree as well – is essential. Not only will it lead to big bucks, but you will rise into the upper strata of society and associate with other top folks. Your kids will probably go to great schools and get very good jobs as well.

    But there’s another point – if your plan is to incur $100,000 in debt to get a BA in English or gender studies from West Crappo State U,, well, you might be better off going the blue collar route. Your degree will add little to no significant earning potential. Yes, blue collar jobs are often dirty, tedious and occasionally dangerous. But some of them pay quite well. For example, Forbes magazine has a list of the best-paying blue-collar jobs. At the top is elevator installers and repairers, who average $73,560. Not much compared to what top doctors, lawyers and execuives earn, but a lot better than you’ll be making working as a secretary or librarian with your crummy BA. Also, many public sector jobs pay pretty well. In California, .police officers average $97,500 and firefighters average $125,000. Police captains make $166,500 and fire captains, $153,600.

    Black Death

    August 31, 2015 at 4:06 pm

    • There are actually very very few people getting liberal arts degrees from crappy school. The vast majority of degrees at crappy schools sound vocational, although some of them are even more crappy than a BA in English.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      August 31, 2015 at 4:20 pm

      • Check out these graduate degrees from Capella University. http://www.capella.edu/online-mba-programs/

        Seems you can get an MBA or a PhD in Education from most any of the crapola for profit universities, DeVry, Strayer, Kaplan, etc. And their undergraduate programs don’t appear to be traditionally vocational; social work, psychology, business, etc.

        Curle

        August 31, 2015 at 5:32 pm

      • Right, marginal students don’t get degrees in Women’s Studies, they get vocational-sounding degrees from crappy schools like Devry.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        August 31, 2015 at 5:43 pm

    • that’s right. those blue collar jobs that pay much above median household income in the us at 40h/wk are largely a myth. unless you’re a manager/foreman it’s higher.

      salaries of police, like those of teachers, varies enormously from place to place.

      the elevator guys are going to live and work in places with a lot of elevators like NYC, most of which have high wages to begin with.

      lineman is another sometimes high paying blue collar job. but this may be due to overtime.

      and there are 100 applicants for every opening…which isn’t really an opening in the first place, because the job’s already been given to the hiring manager’s brother-in-law, etc.

      kim jong un

      September 1, 2015 at 1:36 am

  14. Should males outside the top 20% in IQ kill themselves?

    brixton

    August 31, 2015 at 5:07 pm

    • No. But being in the top 20% IQ isn’t really that great anyway. Family wealth and general background is more important in getting into a good career track than IQ by itself.

      chairman

      August 31, 2015 at 5:30 pm

      • but it doesn’t need to be that way, and that it is that way is diseconomic/inefficient.

        one of the criticisms of the claim that the us has the most rigid class structure in the developed world is that this country level rigidity figure (intergenerational income elasticity) must be adjusted for race and geography.

        but this is bollocks. canada and the antipodes are just as big and have virtually no class system. and race? the iq distribution is still normal. blacks and latinos should do just as well as a group of low iq whites.

        the only explanation for the unique rigidity of the american class system is: 1. lack of opportunity afforded by a leveling state 2. pervasive bias and discrimination, even though it may be mostly unconscious, based mostly on actual or perceived class background much more than on race.

        kim jong un

        August 31, 2015 at 8:02 pm

      • blacks and latinos should do just as well as a group of low iq whites.

        Don’t they?

        Curle

        September 1, 2015 at 1:42 am

      • Family wealth and general background is more important in getting into a good career track than IQ by itself.

        Most people cannot comprehend this.

        If you look or sound like you walked into the wrong bar, you can forget it. You can have stellar on-paper credentials and scores, but you will be kept out of the ‘winner’s circle’ and at best, used. (Think Jason Bateman Kevin Spacey’s relationship in Horrible Bosses).

        But no one tells you this. The entire society is built on lie after lie after lie. They say ‘do well be a good worker’ = ‘prove you are obedient and can take direction and will not think too far outside of the box.’

        A ‘good career track’ in all of the value transference/service industries is made by shaking hands with the right people. To gain access to those people, you pretty much need to get an education. Education is just a big meet and greet; the ‘test for chops’ was whatever standardized test you took to get in. They don’t really teach you anything else.

        swank

        September 1, 2015 at 2:09 pm

      • right. the discrimination against non-whites in the us is almost entirely a class issue in the following sense:

        1. a black who sounds black (or poor) and a latino who sounds like his parents were farm workers will be discriminated against irrespective of his actual background.

        2. a black or latino with a “posh” accent and “mien”…whatever discrimination based on race he may face is more than made up for by his being a “sport” in the eyes of the mostly white “deciders”.

        3. race is something conspicuous and therefore noticed initially by a theretofore racially homogeneous group. but after a short while, it’s totally invisible and irrelevant. really! unless the minority “acts like” a minority. if a black guy or a mexican is a douchebag you tell him to his face and you feel no guilt, because he’s just another human being and not a black or mexican.

        kim jong un

        September 1, 2015 at 2:57 pm

      • trump would do himself a favor which wouldn’t harm his racist street cred if he made it plain that he was against illegal immigration and wanted to restrict legal immigration wherever it was from.

        at one time in the recent past, perhaps still, there are loads of illegal irish immigrants. and i suppose there are loads of illegals from eastern europe too.

        trump should say so.

        he should say the problem isn’t race, it’s too many people.

        he’d lose no racist support and gain non-racist support.

        just like he speaks of “women’s health issues”…translation: he’s pro-choice, pro-abortion.

        that the only guy who tells the truth has so many flaws…it’s a pity…but whatever…i mean, his hair shape hasn’t changed, but he’s now more blond than he was 30 years ago.

        but then again, for those who suppose trump is saying whatever he thinks pleases, NOT SO! he was saying the same things more than a quarter c ago:

        his hair is pretty much the same, but less blond/gold.

        i remember my impression of trump was a rich kid with no taste. but then i read his book in college The Art of the Deal…and i was actually impressed. really!

        kim jong un

        September 1, 2015 at 3:15 pm

      • I will say that Trump has surprised me a few times.

        swank

        September 4, 2015 at 2:55 pm

    • No.

      jjbees

      August 31, 2015 at 5:45 pm

    • No, some of them might be good looking, charismatic, or really skilled at something that doesn’t have a high IQ threshold. However, if your in the bottom 60% then yeah that sucks. DNA tests show the bottom 60% of males don’t breed on average, being an average man is a live of quiet desperation.

      asdf

      September 1, 2015 at 1:40 pm

  15. Lion, don’t forget that white collar career paths are facing tons of competition now; children of asian immigrants (more asians moving to the USA than Mexicans), indians, H1Bs, outsourcing, insourcing, automation, etc…

    25 years ago to get into medical school you took the MCAT, and assuming you got in the top 30% and had a strong handshake you were a lock.

    Now you need to be in the top 10% to even get looked at.

    I went to a shitty low tier school for undergrad, and almost everyone I know who was pre-med didn’t make it to medical school. The majority of them were very capable people with near perfect GPAs and great MCAT scores. They wasted years of their life in pursuit of the white collar lottery win. There is NO money whatsoever in biology outside of medicine due to all the people with degrees. PhDs spend decades doing post-docs that pay less than welfare. At my shitty school there was one chinese post-doc there on her 7th year kowtowing to an evil authoritarian douchebag from south america who wouldn’t let her graduate.

    Getting a doctorate is PROLE. My favorite professor was making less than 40k a year because they wouldn’t promote her, so she left to get tenure at a community college.

    There are so many people like this that it breaks your heart to even think about it.

    jjbees

    August 31, 2015 at 5:51 pm

    • Like law school, you should only get a PhD from the top schools. A PhD from Harvard will definitely get you into a tenure track if that’s what you want.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      August 31, 2015 at 5:52 pm

      • My theory is that in-betweeners lose.

        For example you are much better off socioeconomically having “GED/HS degree” vs “Some College”.

        “Bachelor’s degree” vs “Unfinished masters/doctor” probably has similar results.

        By not being able to finish something it shows the person has poor work ethic/personality.
        So maybe they had the IQ to get a bachelors, but by not finishing their masters/doctorate, they show they can’t work hard. Same for not finishing a bachelors. Just having a GED or HS Diploma is much more of a conscious decision to stop, and they are probably working on their business.

        In-between people have poor goal selection and are unable to accomplish those goals, reflected in lower SES and life outcomes. I predict that the majority of strippers are “some college” girls.

        jjbees

        August 31, 2015 at 5:58 pm

      • Or my friends who got their 4 year engineering or comp sci degrees compared to my pre-med failure friends.

        While the pre-med failures may have 4.0s in hard science and have higher IQs than my engineering friends, the pre-med failures have other non-quantitative failings that make them do worse at life…lack of life reasoning/pragmatism?

        Slate Star Codex guy had a very interesting post on a “general factor of correctness”, basically people who are better at making decisions. High school graduates who start their own plumbing businesses and make 120k a year probably have a MUCH higher general factor of correctness compared to some smart guy who gets into MIT, majors in chemical engineering, then drops out in his junior year and ends up a minimum wage lab tech.

        http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/23/the-general-factor-of-correctness/

        jjbees

        August 31, 2015 at 6:02 pm

      • jjbees, your description of your med school friends reminds me of an article I read some time ago about law school applications in the face of declining law school jobs. The author determined that broad majorities of law school applicants would overwhelmingly make enrollment decisions assuming they would rank at the top of their class. Exceptionalist thinking.

        Curle

        August 31, 2015 at 6:35 pm

    • “25 years ago to get into medical school you took the MCAT, and assuming you got in the top 30% and had a strong handshake you were a lock.”

      That’s nowhere near true. I was looking into it 25 years ago. The average GPA of applicants was about 3.9 and MCATs for accepted applicants were well over 33 (~85%ile). But MCAT wasn’t and isn’t very important — the usual American narrative against objective tests applies. GPA was important — you couldn’t even be considered anywhere below about 3.6 — but personal recommendations (at least three from university or medical authorities that knew you well) and personal interviews were essential. Yes, there was only one med school in the country that didn’t require personal interviews and that only because of volume.

      The USA has a desperate doctor shortage. When you read about problems in the health care system the politicians and activists are always saying it’s financing, insurance companies, hospitals, pharma, or greed causing trouble. Actually, it’s just a doctor shortage. IT costs $400k to study eight years and then there are five years of low earnings coming before a doctor can be independent in the USA. Medical school entrance is severely limited. European countries train twice as many doctors and do it in half as much time with no debt; that’s why they can afford universal health care.

      Owen

      August 31, 2015 at 8:35 pm

      • There is no across the board desperate physician shortage. Some fields within medicine are oversubscribed, and some are undersubscribed (especially primary care – family practice, general internal medicine, pediatrics). It is also the case that most physicians tend not to want to work in inner citiies and middle-of-nowhere rural areas.so that localized shortages may develop in those kinds of places.

        It is not the case that it takes half the time to train physicians throughout Europe. The British MBBS takes 6 years and is followed by around two years of compulsory general medicine training like an extended U.S. internship.. After that, a trainee may be eligible to undertake additional years of subspecialty training. But Europe is a nicer place to live than the U.S. with far lower percentages of dysfunctional NAM’s. An ordinary middle class doctor in Europe arguably has a more pleasant life than an upper middle class doctor in the U.S. and certainly a more pleasant life than a U.S. doctor reduced to the increasingly precarious existence of the ordinary U.S. middle class.

        nebbish

        September 1, 2015 at 1:10 am

  16. My son makes $85,000 coaching youth soccer and working for the club. He has 2 years of community college and 9 years of playing professional soccer, where the most he ever made was $50,000. He has a wonderful personality and average intelligence.

    Ken Storkson

    August 31, 2015 at 5:53 pm

    • Did he play in MLS, USL or NASL? I’ve heard many of the USL/NASL players can make more than bottom tier MLS guys because they have more spare time to devote to youth coaching/private training (my older brother’s son’s youth league pays about $40K/year for coaches with pro, or NCAA D1 experience).

      DSGNTD_PLYR

      August 31, 2015 at 6:40 pm

  17. Im in a sheet metal union I make 100k a year plus another 100k a year in benefits which are a 25k a year blue cross/ shield health plan with full eye dental mental and disability ins, we have two defined benefit pension plans and a 401k plan and two supplemental unemployment plans and a bunch of other stuff.The other trades are about the same in NYC and other big cities.less skilled a bit less.
    I used to brag about the advantages a 7 hr day which we usually left a bit early and since we started at 7 we were out by 200 latest often we would arrange to start at 6 work through lunch and leave at1230. I no longer recommend. my union has been under consent decree since 78 and most other if not in court are trying to stay out of court. so its mostly minorities that are hired into apprenticeships this has been true for a long time,thers quite a few problems with this not only is some nigger from guatemala or honduras taking a 200k a year job from an american hes destroying the skill and productivity level of the unions driving the talented out, they cheat the unions into bankruptcy by sharing union cards with various illegal relatives passing medical cards arounf the hood, working off the books or non union then suing for having less than average hours. In the meantime his cousins are depressing wages generally by working down the street non union for third world wages while collecting welfare and driving up debt taxes and real estate costs. As a foreman I can tell you its not much fun trying to get these guys to do a days work properly in fairness they simply are not capable. so yeah there are still good paying blue collar jobs and you need a high IQ to do them mine is 130 and Im challenged all the time, im sure there’s all sorts of blue collar fields where this is true from homicide detective to airplane mechanic where this is so, in many trades it was sufficient to have a range of IQs its terrifying now to see this range lowered to an unsafe level. white collar elites cant change a tire but are sure skyscrapers can be built by monkeys,soon they will see this is not so. every week I sit at job meetings with 20-30 very intelligent blue collar men, these meetings are to instruct gays asians and women architects and engineers project managers how to build things its funny but sad what tis nation has come to.
    when i look at magazine articles about what careers pay seldom do I see any that pay as much as mine even without the fringe benefits,Living in nyc i see somehow they are making huge amounts of money but a lot are living hand to mouth and will have nothing but soc sec when they get old. Im not sure what to do with my kids I think small business might be a better bet what pays is an ivy league education when you come from an Ivy league family, a lot of those jobs [ i came from such a family ironically] are not really worth the hours or the risk. you have to be all in and then its very competitive if you mistep at 50 youre dead.I have left the trades several times for several years each and no one ever asks where ive been theres no way to know i used to purposely work 6 months a year for a couple decades and live on my homestead during the summer .

    viking

    August 31, 2015 at 6:00 pm

    • What you described is the fall of civilization.

      All the high IQ people that can be scrounged up are funneled into mission critical jobs like “investment banker” LOL.

      A good civilization has lots of smart people doing jobs like homicide detective, plumber, street paver, etc. That’s why countries like Denmark or Sweden, that don’t really have many geniuses or super high levels of achievement like Anglo countries, are superior to live in compared to Anglo countries (unless you have a rare disease that needs treatment and have the money to fly to a research center).

      As the vital workers that sustain quality of life are replaced by low IQ ham and eggers, the roads get worse every year, the schools are slightly dirtier, the teachers a bit lazier, the DMV more inefficient, fewer crimes get solved…but there’s nothing we can do about it but watch on and vote trump.

      Decay is an inevitability without conscious choice to make our institutions superior. People have shirked their responsibility and accepted decline.

      jjbees

      August 31, 2015 at 10:04 pm

      • As the vital workers that sustain quality of life are replaced by low IQ ham and eggers, the roads get worse every year, the schools are slightly dirtier, the teachers a bit lazier, the DMV more inefficient, fewer crimes get solved

        Sailer suggested that some of this can be traced to abandoning the civil service exam. I agree with him.

        Curle

        September 1, 2015 at 1:45 am

      • “That’s why countries like Denmark or Sweden, that don’t really have many geniuses or super high levels of achievement like Anglo countries, are superior to live in compared to Anglo countries…”

        Denmark and Sweden do well because they have Danish and Swedish populations. That’s why Nordic and Scandinavian populations in North America do so well. It’s when they start importing less intelligent, less communal and incredibly vicious people that it all goes to hell. Let’s not fetishize their methods – it’s largely irrelevant to the US because of the heterogeneous population and high proportion of minorities.

        Jesse

        September 1, 2015 at 10:49 am

    • The unions have lost something very important:

      Being properly called…A Guild.

      Guilds have been around for at least a thousand years and they do have a good habit of ensuring quality. Doctors and Lawyers operate guilds.

      map

      August 31, 2015 at 10:08 pm

    • You did yourself in. While you were working 7 hour days (and I imagine that included your coffee breaks, lunch breaks, and smoke breaks) and raking in the $200K per year, it should have occurred to you that this wasn’t sustainable. For the rest of us who had to pay for these exorbitant salaries (either directly via increased building costs or indirectly via taxes), I can only hope these type of jobs and their associated publicly subsidized benefits are in decline.

      Jeremiah Shultz

      September 8, 2015 at 3:18 pm

  18. i don’t enjoy the company of my +1SD co-workers at my office job

    "prole" and proud

    August 31, 2015 at 6:06 pm

  19. So why do some commenters at conservative blogs push such an obviously wrong meme?

    Because college professors have a lot of power wrt The Narrative. If a critical mass of people don’t go then a pillar of the Progressive movement collapses. It’s the same reason Walker went after the public sector unions.

    DSGNTD_PLYR

    August 31, 2015 at 6:30 pm

  20. “1. If your IQ is 1SD above the mean or higher, you are unlikely to enjoy the company of your average-IQ co-workers in a blue-collar profession.”

    My IQ is >4SD over mean. Average IQ people are great, as long as you can find some common point of reference. Smart people (especially ordinary-for-smart smart people) are herd critters (you’ve made this point before too). Average people have genuine experiences to talk about, as long as they are experiences that are in a topic you are interested in, they are better than talking to the sheeple about the approved topic list.

    “2. I am doubtful about how easy it supposedly is to make good money in certain trades that are commonly presented as better deals than white-collar work. If something sounds too good to be true, then it’s probably not true, and making twice as much money as the average college graduate without having to go to college, that sounds too good to be true. There must be barriers to entry which prevent people from entering those fields, although I am not familiar enough with that sort of work to say exactly what they are, but my guess would be that it’s extremely difficult to find an entry-level job that allows you to get the experience you need to make the higher salaries. And I don’t know whether or not having a higher IQ than the average member of the profession makes it easier to get that entry-level job. Maybe it’s more important to have connections?

    3. Blue-collar work is dirty (like a plumber dealing with old pipes that literally are full of crap) and often done outside where it would be broiling hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter. Doesn’t it sound a lot more pleasant to sit at a desk? And blue collar work is often dangerous to your health. For example, auto mechanics have to breathe in carcinogenic and toxic aromatic petroleum distillates all day.”

    2 and 3 are different, but not orthogonal. Quality, high stability blue collar jobs are all about luck and/or who you know. There are many high income jobs that are either craptacular (run a shit-sucking-truck?) or low stability (roughneck). Low stability is often a very high barrier to entry. You will either spend large periods of time unemployed, move a lot, or spend long periods away from home in many of the highest paying jobs (resource extraction), women hate, hate, hate, hate all of these, to the point that they have almost zero presence in the field and drive their SOs out of these fields when they can.

    “4. The elites know how society really work and they want their kids to also be part of the elite. That’s why they send their kids to college, and not just any college but the best college their kids are able to get admitted to.”

    The elites seek status (respect), more than money. You can get filthy rich in real estate development and construction as a business owner (which requires intellect, risk tolerance, and a bit of luck, but not a degree), but the elite will never respect you. So you send your kids off to school to get some upper-middle career with the attendant respect/status.

    Some Guy

    August 31, 2015 at 7:15 pm

    • Maybe this explains Trump? A filthy rich real estate mogul who doesnt get the respect he feels he deserves, so he runs for president to show up the elites?

      Jumpin Jack Fash

      August 31, 2015 at 8:09 pm

    • I’m not so sure about real estate developers not getting respect. There are many high level real estate investors that are high society/philanthropy types. Mort Zuckerman comes to mind. On the other hand, I do agree that owning a construction business, even a very successful one, is considered prole at pretty much any level.

      B.T.D.T.

      August 31, 2015 at 9:51 pm

  21. A classic Lion post. Well done my friend.

    I am in many ways a poster boy for this post. I did time in the military. Flunked out of a biochemistry degree I was pursuing, and now slowly working my way back into getting an engineering degree. Since I dont talk to my parents, I have to work to support myself at the same time. Lucky for me, trade school for welding helped out somewhat and I have been able to keep my head above water lately, and I just got into the plumbers union, so we will see how that goes. I am going to do these trade jobs until I have accrued enough credits for an associates, and then I will transfer to go full time to finish my bachelors. I estimate my age to be around 32, give or take, when I finish.

    One of the main reasons I am leaving the trades is because of the low quality of people here. It feels like being in the military, where having an actual conversation is hard to do because most people just dont seem to concerned with events/ideas outside their immediate lives. Its hard to make friends. At least in college I was able to have interesting conversations with many more people, and I went to a state school!

    However, I really do not miss the indoctrination aspect of college. Its going to be a challenge to suck it up while my idiot, inexperienced classmates parrot anti-White cultural marxist talking points from their hack professors. Parents dont realize how bad it is these days. They think of those quaint 60s professors with gray ponytails, a little goofy but surely no harm, right? I believe sending a young inexperienced 18 year old to live away in college these days is a form of child abuse. The culture on campus is downright rotten, and staying away from it makes one into an outcast of sorts (luckily the outcasts can bond together).

    I’m going back to college because I dont want to be one of these broken old guys I see, and more urgently, to find people I can actually talk to.

    Jumpin Jack Fash

    August 31, 2015 at 7:33 pm

  22. Incidentally, here’s an excellent article about higher ed that came out today via the always excellent Henry Dampier.
    http://www.henrydampier.com/2015/08/training-a-bureaucratic-population/

    Jumpin Jack Fash

    August 31, 2015 at 7:59 pm

  23. The relevant comparison isn’t between normal white collar workers and normal blue collar workers; it’s between how white collar workers do in their jobs compared to how those same people would have done if they’d gone into the trades.

    I work in a white collar field that’s closely connected to the construction industry, and I spent a lot of time working in the field, too. So I have a pretty good perspective on this issue. And I would definitely recommend the trades to some smart kids.

    You’re correct that there are barriers to entry in the field that lead to the high pay opportunities. These are great for the smart kids, because they tend to weed out the large number of people who lack the intelligence and future time orientation to deal with them. If you want to work in the trades, you should seek out these jobs that have Warren Buffett style “moats” around them.

    Let’s look at plumbing, which is the trade pundits talk about the most, and which I used to do as a full time job. To become a licensed plumber in my state, you need to work as an apprentice for at least four years and take a surprisingly large number of class hours before you can sit for the exam. The class stuff is bullshit, as you’d expect- as with most jobs, you learn how to become a plumber by doing it. But many, many people who consider becoming plumbers can’t get their acts together enough to attend night school for four years running, send the forms and fees, take the tests, etc. So they don’t make it to the license. But if you’re smart and organized you’ll do it easily, and after that you won’t have to compete with them.

    And then there are the less obvious barriers. For one thing, the regulatory requirements in the industry have increased dramatically in the last generation or so. There are still old timers on the job sites who can remember the days when there was no state building code, but today the code is thousands of complicated pages long. A large portion of the population simply can’t figure it out. That especially includes immigrants who aren’t fluent in English. For that reason they’ll never advance beyond the bottom tier. Dumb high school dropout Americans are big losers from immigration, but the licensed plumber probably benefits, if anything. He can charge the same rate and pay his least-skilled guy less money. (Note that this absolutely doesn’t apply to trades that have low licensing and regulatory barriers, like drywall and plastering.)

    Finally, I think a lot of you are overestimating how bad the physical aspect is. For one thing, when you’re young it’s actually pretty nice to be moving around instead of trapped in a chair all day. It’s true that I wouldn’t want to rely on my body full time at age 60 (although I know plenty of guys who’ve done it), but if you have anything on the ball you’ll be doing estimates and meetings long before then.

    S

    August 31, 2015 at 8:36 pm

    • A plumber came to my parents house to put in a water heater, and for a few hours easy work he walked out with $450 bucks. That’s pretty damn good money. He told me he doesn’t really do toilet (poop) work because he focuses on installation rather than maintenance.

      I helped him jackass the thing down the stairs, and put it together. At the end of it if I asked him to take me on as an apprentice he probably would have.

      It was actually a lot of fun, and the money is good and the taxes aren’t bad. You get to be your own boss.

      I could definitely do plumbing, and don’t see why more smart proles don’t.

      jjbees

      August 31, 2015 at 10:10 pm

      • In most states, you need a plumber’s license to sell and install water heaters in someone else’s home.

        map

        August 31, 2015 at 11:32 pm

      • “A plumber came to my parents house to put in a water heater, and for a few hours easy work he walked out with $450 bucks. That’s pretty damn good money. He told me he doesn’t really do toilet (poop) work because he focuses on installation rather than maintenance.”

        (1) Plumbing requires someone to be on the right hand side of the bell curve. By definition, at least 50% of people aren’t.

        (2) Inasmuch as it pays well, it does so because of barriers to entry. It’s basically a guild system. And fine. But don’t for a moment pretend that it would ever scale.

        Jesse

        September 1, 2015 at 10:44 am

      • Map, how many times do I have to explain that you can use your friends license and give them a cut? Plenty of these plummeting and electrical contractors do just that. On the other hand, the winning factor in choosing HVAC for me was that I only needed an EPA license and I got it in school. I didn’t want to depend on anybody. It quite amazing that HVAC is so lightly regulated.

        Yakov

        September 1, 2015 at 11:12 am

      • Yakov,

        “how many times do I have to explain that you can use your friends license and give them a cut?”

        C’mon, man. Be realistic. You can’t sell to people the idea that cutting such regulatory corners is a natural bonus to being in the trades. Someone is going to get caught and reap the penalties for doing so.

        map

        September 1, 2015 at 12:55 pm

      • Map, how many times do I have to explain that you can use your friends license and give them a cut? Plenty of these plummeting and electrical contractors do just that.

        I know people who have gotten nailed for doing this. Whether it would work depends on the jurisdiction and how exactly you do it.

        S

        September 1, 2015 at 2:32 pm

      • Look, it’s obvious that these requirements of years of experience and extra study are meant to maintain artificial monopoly. By all means get all the licenses but in the meantime and in between time you can still be making money like a licensed electrician or plumber. Never heard of of anyone being busted in NYC, it’s possible, but nothing ventured – nothing gained. Read Jack London, will you?

        Yakov

        September 1, 2015 at 5:42 pm

  24. You don’t need a college degree to start a business

    Working for someone else is largely for women and losers

    anon99

    August 31, 2015 at 8:43 pm

    • You generally need a degree to make the right connections. Schools connect you. The “education” part is silly.

      swank

      August 31, 2015 at 9:15 pm

  25. Great post, Lion. Excellent comments, too. I suspect one reason for the blue-collar envy on the Internet is that proles have more fun. They have more bad behavior, sure, and I wouldn’t want to live next door to a low prole. But when I see them out on their boats or Ski-Doos, or driving around in a big Ford F150, I can’t help feeling like they have something I don’t with my staid middle-class striving life. They hit the bars, don’t worry about driving home (this isn’t NYC), and don’t worry about feeling hung over the next day. It’s easy to hurt your back when you do real labor, so longevity on the job isn’t great. Also, their kids seem to suffer from prole drift and end up low prole more often than they join the middle class.

    RP

    August 31, 2015 at 8:56 pm

    • The entire country has prolified significantly, since the initial launching of this blog.

      JS

      August 31, 2015 at 9:42 pm

  26. @LotB: Doesn’t it sound a lot more pleasant to sit at a desk?

    Yep. I just spent 25 out of the last 31 days, including the last six days straight, working on my new rental condo in preparation for my new tenants moving in on Sep. 1st. Looking forward to my air conditioned, quiet office, extended lunch breaks, internet surfing, and sitting at my desk.

    E. Rekshun

    August 31, 2015 at 9:01 pm

  27. Peterike should be commenting on this post, as to why Whites are being displaced by non-Whites, when it comes to smelly blue color jobs, and anything that is STEM related. I would like to hear his point of view.

    The projected fall of this country, should be blamed squarely on our White elites, who only care about the bottom line, and maintaining their status quo from other Whites. They would rather sink this nation into an abyss and take everyone down with them, than to see themselves being put into obsolescence from more competition. Ironically and interestingly, it appears that our elites are prole drifting, before this country decline in its entirety.

    JS

    August 31, 2015 at 9:39 pm

  28. Low income blue collar worker here. I have had a desk job and even programmed for a brief time. Personally, I prefer moving around and have little interest in a desk job. The professional people I work with all manage people. Since the company I work at doesn’t treat people very well, I don’t find that work very appealing. When I read about the latest in motivation research, I can only assume the managers at my company reject those findings or don’t know about them. I did well on tests in school(certainly no lion of course) but now as I have gotten older I prefer less abstract, more physical work. I respect people who do physical work because many times, not always, they seem more emotionally invested in their work. This is definitely true in my case. Figuring out ways to make a tough job a little bit easier has been one of my great rewards while working the last few years. It doesn’t pay much but I enjoy poking the engineers in the eye with a why didn’t you guys think of it solution. Proles can obsess over 50 cents an hour bonus and not think about the thousands of dollars that a career change could give them. They also can get very angry but I prefer that passion to some of the managers who seem afraid of their own shadow. To each his own.

    mark

    August 31, 2015 at 10:15 pm

  29. Lion but honestly, how hard is it for us to do computer/development work. For smart people it’s easy, an iq test would suffice. I think the idea comes from that, a lot of work is easy for high iq people intellectually, but no one will give them the chance with out a degree, which is stupid because most of what they need to do they learn on the job. The other side of the coin is that even high iq people can be lazy and college filters out those people.

    XVO

    August 31, 2015 at 10:24 pm

  30. Let’s keep this real.

    1. The first question is what’s your lifestyle and how much money you need to pursue it? Amish, bohemian, prole, Catholic, Jewish?

    2. What would you like to do? Nothing, dance and sing, medicine, philosophy, whatever, etc…

    3. What are your financial resources?

    4. Do I have the necessary ability to do it?

    5. You can do it, or you can’t and need to compromise.

    I know that for my orthodox Jewish lifestyle today I would need 250,000 a year after tax. I kid you not. This is $1,000 a day assuming 250 working days in a year, give or take. A mortgage on a 1.2 million house is $50,000 a year, real estate taxes in Brooklyn are $5,000, very reasonable private school tuition for 6 kids (the average) is $60,000, summer in the mountains or in Israel is $20,000, medical insurance is $20,000. This is a total of $155,000. So I’m left with a $100,000 for food, clothing, bills, retirement, saving for kids’ bar mitzvah, wedding, supporting them after marriage for a few years. This is NOT a lot of money. Does going to college make sense for a guy with this lifestyle? It depends on his acdemic abilities, but for most people it doesn’t make sense.

    Yakov

    August 31, 2015 at 10:46 pm

  31. I was working in a gym on Sunday. I took 2,500 to change two compressors and for other stuff I took $500. This is a nice job, if you can get it. Now the owner was a young, extremely bright and athletic Chinese guy in his mid twenties. So I chat him up and this guy pays $15,000 a month rent, has 2,300 members at $300 a year plus tons of various classes for women. I think from this gym alone he makes $250,000, but it turns out he has a few branches already and can be making a million. Does he need college?

    Yakov

    August 31, 2015 at 10:56 pm

  32. When I was bringing my four kids up $150,000 after tax was enough. My house cost me $180,000 and my real estate tax was $1,200 a year. Tuitions cost me $12,000 because my ex was a teacher and I got discounts, summer was under $10,000. Life was pretty reasonable and Wall Street paid well, but today it’s crazy expensive. Does going to college make sense for me or my kids?

    Yakov

    August 31, 2015 at 11:07 pm

    • Yakov,

      I think your confusing and outlier with the norm.

      map

      September 1, 2015 at 1:17 am

      • Map, these expenses are the norm. My very aggressively prole daughter got a non-Regents high school diploma to make me happy. She was married and had her first kid by 18, hasn’t read a book since school, doesn’t know anything about politics or elections, has zero education, BUT she and her husband weel and deal from morning to night and at 26 she owns a house, two cars, two kids in private school, and goes on cruse vacations. She is very aggressive about her prolness and rightly claims that NO college education would enable her to live the way she does. She loves saying that college and education is stupid and a waste of time. All she cares about is money, lots of it, dieting, working out, her kids, helping her friends, neighbors and family, and having good time. She doesn’t care for her kids to be educated, just to have a happy childhood. Very common sense girl, Imo. I have tons of fun watching how she operates.

        Yakov

        September 1, 2015 at 11:32 am

  33. Lion,

    “4. The elites know how society really work and they want their kids to also be part of the elite. That’s why they send their kids to college, and not just any college but the best college their kids are able to get admitted to.”

    This is a very good point and something that I would like to stress in another context.

    The conservative blogosphere has done much to attack the notion of the “participation award.” This is the practice of awarding people, kids especially, trophies for anything outside of an actual, meritorious win. Instead of getting the trophy because you are the fastest, strongest, smartest or placing somewhere below the top winner, like an Olympiad, you get a trophy for showing up, doing your best, trying, or some other relatively soft measure.

    Conservatives like to laugh at this and deride it as a silly manifestation of the “self-esteem” movement.

    The problem is, this practice has been largely instituted by the elite. It is the wealthy and powerful that push this even among their own children. The question is why?

    Let’s consider the problem with the purely meritocratic purpose of awards that conservatives think should animate childhood play: If you don’t win, then is the game worth playing? If winning is everything, and the only thing, then why bother playing if the probability of winning is so low? If it’s not probable to place somewhere at the top, then why bother wasting your time participating in the first place? Pure meritocracy cancels out the very basis of play!!!

    The elite understand this. They want sports or any other organized activity to be a controlled simulation of real life so that the elite parent can properly evaluate their child’s strengths and weaknesses. Controlled simulations are crucial for childhood development because letting real-life teach your kids is a costly and expensive lesson. If, however, the elite parent insists on the winner-take-all meritocracy, then the simulations collapse due to a lack of participation. An important feedback mechanism is lost.

    For example, they only way I can find out if my kid is the best baseball player is in an environment where other kids are willing to play baseball with him. The incentive to play needs to align in a way to encourage the broadest possible participation. Pure meritocracy does not do that.

    Prole parents, on the other hand, raise their kids with a winner-take-all mentality that celebrates winning above all. This is the idiot father you see screaming at his kid at the baseball diamond for screwing up some play. They are also the ones who believe in a sink-or-swim mentality, where you throw the kid out of the house at 18 and have him find his way in the world, leading to all of the mixed-results we discuss at these blogs.

    The elite parents do not do that. Instead, they invest and guide their children on an elite path from feedback data created through controlled simulations. They want their kids to keep trying and always be in the game no matter what and no matter where they place. This instills better habits and better outcomes. Real-world concerns must never short-circuit the simulation at a young and crucial age.

    I suspect the push for college among the elite follows a similar logic.

    map

    August 31, 2015 at 11:16 pm

    • Wrong. What you describe as prole is the right approach. A loser knows he is a loser and no award can fool him. Let’s say a kid gets knocked out in a boxing match, now he needs an award? For what? Everybody will just laugh at this nonsense. A kid drops the bar while doing a snatch, again needs an award? This is ridiculous. You box and lift because you love the sport, want to be strong and be able to fight your enemies in real life. What award you gonna get in real life if you lose? Read some Jack London mate. Like ‘The Sea Wolf’, ever read that?

      Yakov

      September 1, 2015 at 12:08 am

      • Yakov,

        If no one chooses to box the kid, then what?

        map

        September 2, 2015 at 10:48 pm

      • Map,
        Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean. The kid is so strong that everyone is afraid of him? What does it mean ‘nobody chosen to box the kid’?

        Yakov

        September 3, 2015 at 9:12 am

      • Yakov,

        No, the point is that no one goes into the boxing ring to get knocked out or to establish someone else’s bona fides as a great boxer. Why would anyone do that? Do you have nothing better to do than elevate someone else to commanding heights?

        map

        September 4, 2015 at 3:43 am

    • Great analysis.

      Elites and role parents alike are destroyers of fun.

      Class X = lets their kids have fun, and they go camping and play sports for recreation. This is the best life.

      jjbees

      September 1, 2015 at 1:02 am

    • The elite parents do not do that. Instead, they invest and guide their children on an elite path from feedback data created through controlled simulations.

      Elite parents must have made quite a transformation in the last 30 odd years. The elite parents of my friends growing up trended towards workaholics who never engaged with the children (if they were fathers), they were sharks in their business and displayed similar traits at home or they inherited loads of money themselves and ended up drunks. Some were nice I must admit.

      Many had a somewhat laissez faire attitude towards their spawn and many didn’t seem overly concerned about the schools the kids attended. Why should they when there were leaving them millions of dollars or highly profitable businesses? It was the middle class and upper middle class striver parents who were most concerned about respectability and the benefits of a good college. The big achievers among my high school cohort (one became a billionaire another the leader of a country) were all children of upper middle class and middle class parents.

      Curle

      September 1, 2015 at 2:08 am

    • 1) I have found in my life that the parents who say “18 and out the door” tend to be losers. I have never heard an upper-middle class person say that.

      2) I find it amusing that conservatives decry participation trophy, yet would scream bloody murder if their bosses docked their pay for having a bad day at work. Unless you are a salesman of some sort, most people tend to get paid the same regardless of job performance. I earn a salary, and twice a month I get a check for exactly the same amount, regardless of how many days I worked, my productivity, etc.

      ScarletNumber

      September 1, 2015 at 2:10 am

      • Meriprolestan is a lost cause, when it comes to make-work for its youth.

        Given the astronomical rise of housing costs, in most of our urban areas, the country just shot itself in the foot, when it comes cultivating its young talent.

        Meanwhile, Democrats are always circle jerking about the injustices of the less privileged, and the Republicans want to bring back an early 20th century, Industrial Renaissance.

        JS

        September 1, 2015 at 6:15 pm

  34. Trades and the like have a medieval guild mentality in that one does not simply waltz into these positions. For example, look at the longshoremen who make over $100k and hold the ports hostage when they don’t get what they want: these longshoremen are basically just pulling levers in modern containerized ports, and they can pass their job down to their children. No way is that kind of job going to just any slob off the street and nepotism is the order of the day.

    Long term, many trades will wreck your body and the calculus that made them attractive for the young fails as time progresses. I know carpenters and builders of the like who wrecked their bodies and are in chronic pain (back problems, etc.) and sometimes the best they can hope for is to win the disability lottery (which is a pittance which you could never survive on in the city). Toxic exposure and industrial accidents are also nasty downsides: steamfitters still run into asbestos in legacy infrastructure and many large machines show no quarter for the slightest error (do an image search on “lathe accident”: graphic and terrible).

    OT: the average pay for a member of the New York State Police is over $100k, and a cop in rural upstate can live quite large on that sum.

    Sanjuro

    August 31, 2015 at 11:34 pm

    • This is why going to gym is so important. I overload myself in gym so that my physical load on the job is much less than what I’m capable of doing. This is very important especially as you age. Just like you feed your body, you’ve got to exercise it and it will serve you well. A body is just a shell for the soul i.e. the intellect, but you’ve got to give its needs.

      Yakov

      August 31, 2015 at 11:56 pm

      • This cheesy comment is a reason, why MaryK loves reading your stuff.

        JS

        September 1, 2015 at 11:53 am

      • JS, and when you where discussing French philosophy with French girls a couple of weeks back, what was their opinion?

        Yakov

        September 1, 2015 at 6:59 pm

      • They listened, because I spoke about a French Philosopher called Jacques Lacan, who predicted America’s commodified consumption patterns, which otherwise, are basic staples of Europe. His vision was that America is a sick country headed for demise, because everything is tied to money, and Americans are obedient to large entities. And this was a few decades ago, and we’re now reaping what we sow.

        JS

        September 1, 2015 at 8:05 pm

      • “This cheesy comment is a reason, why MaryK loves reading your stuff”

        JS, you know me so well! I loved this comment of Yakov’s. But there is nothing “cheesy” about it. I understand that you are not a religious man, but many of us ARE concerned with the soul Maybe you’re subconsciously falling for the false stereotype that religious people are low-IQ (and of course, making an exception for intelligent people such as Yakov and myself.) Working out and keeping fit is not exactly prole,is it? I thought proles were overweight and reluctant to exercise (like me – but I’m trying to change!) So it must have been the comment about the body being a shell for the soul that you thought was cheesy.

        BTW, how is Canada working out so far for you? I feel bad that you are no longer in the US – and I have no idea why. For some reason I find it upsetting that we lost you to another country. But at least now you’ll be able to say that you insulted guidos from TWO countries! You ARE going to continue, aren’t you? No one does guido-bashing as well as you do, not even Lion himself!

        Maryk

        September 1, 2015 at 11:13 pm

      • Weren’t you trying to hook up? Lemme see, say, I go to France and start chatting to a French girl and she would start bashing France, I would think this is weird. I mean, who the hell asked her to bash France? I’m a tourist, there is tons to see, I would not go to France if I’d thought it wasn’t an interesting place. Why is this girl bashing France? So did you hook up, or they found you too weird? Why is this French philosophy? If a French guy says something it becomes French philosophy now?

        Yakov

        September 1, 2015 at 11:35 pm

      • MaryK — I left the US, for one particular reason, besides the usual doomsayer of eminent collapse, and the other kooky things that are wrong with the US.

        America and especially NYC are downright prole, and it’s not even funny. The country looks like a cesspit, wherever you go, and the people are relatively cranky, credulous and ignorant regardless of background, when comparing to Canadians, who are more carefree, polite and accommodating. Did I also say, more wordly?

        Ironically, it was an Italiano who encourage me to leave the country for French Canada, because he’s done it, and have no regrets about it. We have problems with the homeless, crime, and corrupt politicians up in Montreal, but it’s nothing like NYC.

        JS

        September 4, 2015 at 11:09 am

      • Yakov — No, contemporary French intellectuals/philosophers have been bashing America, not France. A few of them got it right. They’re laughing now, because our current state of affairs is what they’ve predicted. Americans are obedient to large bureaucracies.

        JS

        September 4, 2015 at 11:14 am

      • Montreal is a lovely place. It’s a wonderful choice compared to NYC.

        Yakov

        September 4, 2015 at 3:16 pm

      • Yes, and NYC is disgustingly prole, if you want to talk about the AC units that stick out from the windows, like a sore thumb. I don’t find this in Montreal, at least not prevalent in most areas.

        And NYC has a large, large underclass of blacks and to certain extent, Hispanics. Montreal has their troublemakers like the North Africans, but any Old World riff-raff is better than those from the New World.

        2 million blacks reside in NYC, and many of them work/play in Manhattan. The black underclass in Montreal are mostly regulated in a Northern section, and they usually don’t f*ck around where White people are.

        JS

        September 5, 2015 at 11:37 am

      • And Yakov, I know of a Jewish dude, who wants to live in Montreal, because he’s being priced out from Park Slope. But he’s too old and settled to make a new life. He wants safety, affordability and walkability, with a variety amenities. Most cheap American towns don’t offer this. This goes back to my comments that America is a hole.

        JS

        September 5, 2015 at 11:42 am

      • JS, stop trolling. America has plenty of nice towns that offer everything. My mother lives in a town like this. It’s an excellent place.

        Yakov

        September 5, 2015 at 10:52 pm

    • Sanjuro, regarding your OT, I recommend the movie Troopers: Inside the Florida Highway Patrol. Interesting look at a state police force’s selection and training.

      RP

      September 1, 2015 at 6:22 am

  35. I advise all younger people to not go to college if I feel that the reason they are going to college is because of social norms. Breaking the social norm that “everyone goes to college” is important.
    It’s also sound financial advice since most people come out of college with tens of thousands of dollars of loans to pay off.

    Panther of the Blogocube

    September 1, 2015 at 12:24 am

  36. Most white collar workers wouldn’t last until lunchtime in a blue collar job. As I explained above, over the past month, I took several days off from my cushy office job to remodel a rental condo. While I’m trim and fit, and mechanically inclined, and mostly enjoyed the long days and completing the laborious projects, by the time I got home I was exhausted, sore, and stiff. I guess workers would get used to the aches and pains. Most office workers barely do two hours of real work in the whole day.

    @Joe Schmoe: he went to some kind of training program provided by General Motors and got a job as a mechanic working at a car dealership. Today he does quite well, he’s not rich but he owns a house and has a family.

    Good post. Back in ’00, I was familiar with a 30-year old ASE-certified auto mechanic working for a dealership in KC, MO; he made $85K per year.

    E. Rekshun

    September 1, 2015 at 5:18 am

  37. The right pushes the meme firstly because they apparently can’t understand the basic arithmetic of supply and demand (in fairness, this seems to be difficult for most people).

    Inasmuch as these jobs are paid well, they do so because that’s the pay/benefit level it needs to be to attract qualified applicants. (I would say that in a genuinely free market, these jobs would pay higher, but let’s leave that aside for the moment.) What that means is that if these industries get flooded by people fleeing white collar work, the wages will go down. The simple fact is that there are not enough jobs – of any kind – for the amount of people who need them. There would’ve been if the elites had held the pre-1965 immigration policy and held their nerve against a nascent China, and it’s okay because I laughed at the notion too.

    Secondly, they like to promote it because it places the blame for the utter disaster of a jobs situation away from big scary elites and difficult/impossible to solve economic issues to kicking ordinary people for being so stoooooopid. It’s a basic and obvious fact of life that anyone who goes into, say, manufacturing has a high chance of their job being lost to automation, given to an immigrant or shipped overseas.

    You think employers like paying “high” (i.e., something approaching market) wages? Hell, no. That’s why they crush them the moment they can, and certainly once the workers get all uppity and expecting a living wage as a right. If teenagers don’t see it (and the smarter ones, certainly, generally do) then their families certainly do, and try to make sure that their loved ones have at least some chance of not getting screwed over. The great secret of the irrational bias against white collar work is – whisper it – that it doesn’t actually exist. It’s a perfectly rational response to reality, and ignoring that is just one more reason I am not and never will be a conservative.

    Jesse

    September 1, 2015 at 10:38 am

  38. The Establishment Right is very dishonest when it comes to education. The National Review advise their readers to send their kids to small Catholic colleges or Bob Jones university and that Rural Life is the best. Meanwhile the writers work out a Manhattan office, send their children to Ivy leagues, and recruit interns from the Ivy Leagues!

    jimmygandhi

    September 1, 2015 at 6:11 pm

  39. It’s not college that’s important, it’s GRADUATE SCHOOL. A BA/BS from a top University doesn’t mean squat in the job market unless there’s also an MBA, JD, MD, Masters or whatnot.

    If anything, the 4-years undergraduate degree should be thrown out the window or severely shortened to two years of prep before grad school.

    fakeemail

    September 1, 2015 at 10:55 pm

    • None of this is correct.

      Renault

      September 2, 2015 at 9:08 pm

  40. Does Lion have any clue what he’s talking about with regards to IQ tests interviews? Do you know Griggs v. Duke Power Co.? IT IS ILLEGAL TO GIVE AN IQ TEST DURING AN INTERVIEW

    Foooflo

    September 6, 2015 at 7:49 am

    • That’s not true. Didn’t you read my post about that: https://lionoftheblogosphere.wordpress.com/2015/08/31/response-to-a-comment/

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      September 6, 2015 at 9:53 am

      • You proved my point. Griggs bans IQ tests that aren’t relevant to the job. Hence, the college degree proxy. Programmer tests ARE relevant to the job. That’s why you don’t need a degree to program. Maybe you can’t read well? Do you know Griggs v. Duke Power Co.? IT IS ILLEGAL TO GIVE AN IQ TEST DURING AN INTERVIEW

        Foooflo

        September 6, 2015 at 2:24 pm

      • No, it’s not illegal in all circumstances. Companies don’t use objective testing because they don’t believe in the value of objective testing.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        September 6, 2015 at 2:47 pm

      • Companies don’t use objective testing because they don’t believe in the value of objective testing.

        That must be why several companies use the Wonderlic.

        swank

        September 6, 2015 at 4:04 pm


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