Lion of the Blogosphere

Response to a comment

“peterike” wrote in a comment:

Well, we all understand that college degrees are proxies for the IQ tests that companies are not legally allowed to give.

This is wrong, and the reason why it’s wrong was answered in my classic post, Disparate impact and the irrationality of white-collar employment. I just edited the original post because it contained a lot of typos, so go read it, or re-read it if you’ve already read it. Even I learned something from it, and I wrote it!

I think that one of the reasons why some readers of HBD blogs get this wrong is because they know a lot about IQ and spend a lot of time thinking about it, and then become completely unaware that the average person, which includes the average person who works in a corporation and has the power to make or influence hiring decisions, knows absolutely nothing about the science of IQ.

Corporations make money not because they know what they are doing, but because they have monopoly power. There were certainly a lot of stupid people in the upper management at the company I used to work for, but the company made money anyway. They had a monopoly.

The company had an HR department, and the HR department couldn’t care less if managers hired stupid people, but they were very, very concerned that mangers weren’t hiring enough black and Hispanic people.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

August 31, 2015 at 6:31 pm

Posted in Labor Markets

38 Responses

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  1. I still think the thing is this: Who are we talking to?

    A lot of people should go to college. If you have the opportunity to go to the University of Your State, you should probably go. On the other hand, if your opportunities are limited to North By Northwest Your State University… then that’s something of a different story.

    We talk about how much college graduates make versus non college graduates, versus how much they spend on school. But that’s not helpful because it’s counting people who went to the University of Michigan, Michigan State, Eastern Michigan, and Wright State. But the people on the borderline of going to college are probably more likely to be headed to the latter two.

    So how much more does the average EMU or WSU grad make than someone who didn’t go to school, and how much did they spend to go? Those are the calculations we should be running.

    trumwill

    August 31, 2015 at 6:40 pm

    • The issue that with most large organizations you can’t make it past HR for white collar work without a degree. You cannot work for any Federal or State Agency without a degree. They will interview a dunce who went to Wright State before they interview a bright person who did not go to college.

      Dan

      August 31, 2015 at 8:49 pm

      • Or you can work on a presidential campaign, purchase a diploma online and become Department of Homeland Security’s deputy chief information officer making between $128 -175K in 2005 dollars. http://reason.com/archives/2005/01/01/cut-rate-diplomas

        “Looking at the personnel of eight federal agencies chosen at random, the GAO found that 463 employees showed up on the enrollment records of just three unaccredited schools. (It actually looked at four colleges, but only three responded to its request for information and only two fully cooperated.) This was merely a sampling of the dozens of mills operating nationwide, not an exhaustive audit; given the limited nature of the GAO’s investigation, the true number of federal employees who are academically unqualified to fill the positions they hold could be in the thousands.”

        Curle

        August 31, 2015 at 9:19 pm

  2. All true, and exactly why anyone who is not a natural politician should STAY OUT OF LAW SCHOOL.

    Learn how to shake hands, drink, fit in wherever you are, and you get access to money. There is a relatively small circle that is connected to most of the money in a given town. Break into it, and that’s it. Law school, through its events, does offer access to these circles. And that’s about its only use and utility.

    swank

    August 31, 2015 at 6:47 pm

    • “When one visits Americans and when one studies their laws, one sees that the
      authority they have given to lawyers and the influence that they have allowed them to have in the government form the most powerful barrier today against the lapses of democracy.”

      The defect of an adversarial system is that the other side may put up a fight. It’s worth a lot of money to hide the ball and sucker people in to becoming second-class BIGLAW citizens (in-house is where a lawyer goes to die). It’s also worth a lot of money to convince the people who most need lawyers that lawyers are evil, etc. If they are so bad, why do rich people have so many of them?

      Everyone hears about the oversupply of lawyers; oversupply of lawyers for rich, wealthy clients. There is an undersupply of lawyers for middle-income earners (that includes small businesses): “The ABA and the Legal Services Corporation estimate that 80 to 90 percent of the legal needs of the poor go unmet, and that estimate does not change appreciably for the middle class.”

      The only way to properly do the job — helping the people who need help — involves shouldering a fair amount of risk. “Political skill” (looking like you walked into the right bar, drinking, shaking hands and keeping your mouth shut mostly) is a must. Most people who go to law school hate it.

      swank

      September 1, 2015 at 1:14 pm

  3. First, thanks for the call out, even if it was to say “nay” to me!

    Second, I think people in HR departments know nothing about IQ because they aren’t allowed to, or can’t do anything about it. If companies were still allowed to administer tests (and it didn’t have the social stigma that it does), then HR departments would be all about putting together the best tests to find workers for ATT, Exxon, Microsoft, etc.

    And yeah, HR departments aren’t consciously aware that they require college degrees because they can’t give IQ tests. That knowledge has been “vanished” as in the Soviet Union. And HR departments are filled mostly by SWPL women who wouldn’t dream of questioning the Narrative. In any case, if they COULD still give tests, they’d be giving tests to find the least-bad blacks and Hispanics.

    peterike

    August 31, 2015 at 7:03 pm

  4. “Congress ratified Griggs by making disparate impact the statutory law of the United States. And this happened in 1991 when a Republican was president.”

    Thank you for reminding me never to vote for a Bush again.

    Curle

    August 31, 2015 at 9:08 pm

  5. OTT, I don’t know about you mates, but I was livid at Obama’s changing the name of Mt. McKinley. His hutzpa has no bounds. I was wauting for Trump to react and he did.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-09-01/trump-vows-to-undo-obama-name-change-of-mt-mckinley

    Yakov

    August 31, 2015 at 9:34 pm

    • He gave it an Indian name which is mostly inoffensive as far as name changes go. Now if he changed it to Mt. Alinsky . . .

      Curle

      September 1, 2015 at 1:35 am

      • If we could only start renaming the zillions of things and places named after John F Kennedy.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        September 1, 2015 at 8:46 am

      • If we could only start renaming the zillions of things and places named after John F Kennedy.

        Not to mention Martin Luther King, Jr.

        Hermes

        September 1, 2015 at 12:08 pm

      • Yes. Reminds me of the founding generation’s noted aversion (with the possible exception of Hamilton) to any excessive elevation of any individual; they believed it promoted anti-republican thinking. Jefferson would be appalled at the monuments built at the capitol city, particularly his.

        Curle

        September 1, 2015 at 1:31 pm

      • @Hermes: Not to mention Martin Luther King, Jr.

        No, when something is named after MLK, such as a street, school, or other facility, then that’s a good clue to stay away.

        E. Rekshun

        September 2, 2015 at 6:01 pm

  6. Corporations make money not because they know what they are doing, but because they have monopoly power.

    Your point was strong enough but then you derail it with this troll bait.

    The Undiscovered Jew

    August 31, 2015 at 9:36 pm

  7. “Corporations make money not because they know what they are doing, but because they have monopoly power.”

    How do you get monopoly power without knowing what they are doing? Did the iPhone fairy give the iPhone monopoly to Apple?

    Dave Pinsen

    August 31, 2015 at 9:56 pm

    • There are natural monopolies that exist because of nerdy scientists and engineers, and someone finds it and exploits it. But by the time the company is hiring a lot of people, they could be hiring a bunch of morons and will still make money because of the monopoly power.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      August 31, 2015 at 10:56 pm

  8. I don’t understand why the GRE, GMAT, MCAT, LSAT are even allowed?

    There are large racial differences in the scores on these tests.

    jjbees

    August 31, 2015 at 10:25 pm

    • Because those tests are thought to be relevant to the task at hand. (Content-wise, that is. Mainstream society knows nothing about g.) And the racial differences can be “explained” by racism, poverty, inadequate nutrition, etc.

      Hermes

      September 1, 2015 at 12:12 pm

  9. OT. Stuyvesant H.S’s wiki lists Eric Holder, David Axelrod, Dick Morris, and Michael Levin (among a cast of over 100) talented fellow alumni of LOB. Maybe the high school is the thing to look at.

    jef

    September 1, 2015 at 2:29 am

  10. How do you explain that so few jewish people vote for Republican Party? You are an exception among the Jewish community.

    Do not take it to a personal attack but I think you’re supporting Donald Trump because you’re a loser. Like all losers, you perceive subjectively immigrants as a threat and claim barriers for free trade.

    America was built by migrants who do not even understand the modern IQ test. Very few educated people who put several generations out of their misery.

    If we have listened the social-darwnisit instincts of the old WASP, it is the Jews, the italians and the Irish who could never settle on the US territory because of their low-IQ.

    You could not even write this blog.

    Meretz

    September 1, 2015 at 4:14 am

    • America was built by white European immigrants (which includes my Jewish great-grandparents from Poland and Russia). And when they came here they were eager to become American and forget their home country. They stopped following orthodox Judaism, they taught their kids English and not Yiddish. They gave them regular American names.

      More Jews are voting Republican. My mother voted for Romney and she hates De Blasio. She used to be a Democrat.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      September 1, 2015 at 8:51 am

      • That was a betrayal of their people and faith on the part of those Jews and, while understandable in the historical context, is nothing to be proud of.

        I think America has the best constitution in the world and American Revolution was the greatest Revolution that the world has known. America is the best place in the world, in my opinion, but why would I stop practicing my religion or speaking all these Jewish languages that we speak? America doesn’t have the best religion in the world, we Jews have that, or at least that’s what I think.

        Also, 37% of American Nobel prize laureate are Jewish. Jew don’t just cause problems, they also bring benefits. To be a superpower America needs Jews.

        The right thing is to be a patriot and a Jew.
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haym_Salomon

        Yakov

        September 1, 2015 at 11:01 pm

    • “If we have listened the social-darwnisit instincts of the old WASP, it is the Jews, the italians and the Irish who could never settle on the US territory because of their low-IQ.”

      (1) GIVE A SOURCE. NOW. Where, in history, has anyone denied that Ashkenazic Jews are smart?

      (2) Ireland, for most of its history, wasn’t sending its best and brightest. The WASPs in Boston strongly liberalized their social structure in the early 19th century. It worked wonderfully – for Puritans. When Ireland started using the US as a toilet for its surplus population come the Famine, it disintegrated because these people simply were not smart enough to handle it.

      The Catholic Church had to step in and destroy the social liberalization – that’s actually a major reason why the institution is so pro-immigration. Most of the native stock in developed countries simply do not need that level of social control that the RC chuch wants to impose. So they help import massive amounts of less intelligent and less disciplined people, and then demand a roll back of liberal social mores on the basis of the disaster they have helped bring about.

      Ashkenazim aside, objections to those groups were perfectly rational. Most nineteenth century objections to Chinese immigration centered on the fact that they were smarter than the natives, but that national loyalties demanded that Americans not have to compete with them because hey, not even the Chinese wanted to live in China! (It’s depressing how alien national loyalties look in this day and age.)

      Jesse

      September 1, 2015 at 11:07 am

    • “If we have listened the social-darwnisit instincts of the old WASP, it is the Jews, the italians and the Irish who could never settle on the US territory because of their low-IQ.”

      The reasons were not strictly IQ based. They were also religious and cultural. And, in fact, those old WASPs were right. America would be a better place had we not allowed in Jews, Italians and Irish, or any Southern or Eastern Europeans in great numbers. It might not be as wealthy a place without the Jews, or as “vibrant” a place without the Italians and Irish, but the life of the typical American would have been much better had America remained a nation of people from England/Scotland/Wales/Germany/Austria/Scandinavia/France with only a smattering of other Euros and no significant Asian or Mestizo presence.

      peterike

      September 1, 2015 at 11:35 am

      • Without immigration of Jews, Arthur Jensen wouldn’t have been at UC Berkely to research intelligence. Nor would Richard Herrnstein have been at Harvard to co-write the Bell Curve.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        September 1, 2015 at 1:45 pm

      • or significant blacks (for peterike). America has more blacks than any other 1st world nation. Paris would come in second!

        JS

        September 1, 2015 at 6:27 pm

      • They were also religious and cultural. And, in fact, those old WASPs were right. America would be a better place had we not allowed in Jews, Italians and Irish, or any Southern or Eastern Europeans in great numbers.

        America is obviously greater as a pan-European state.

        And we’d have a politically viable anti-immigration right years ago if we paleoconservatives and WNs weren’t alienating ethnic whites (30-40% of all white Americans).

        When have Trump, Tancredo, or Dave Bratt spoken out against the history of ethnic white migration?

        The Undiscovered Jew

        September 1, 2015 at 9:13 pm

      • …..well, ok, without the Italians you wouldn’t have had “maryk,” but would you be willing to give up our host Mr. Lion? Some sacrifices are just too much to ask!

        Maryk

        September 1, 2015 at 10:42 pm

    • “If we have listened the social-darwnisit instincts of the old WASP, it is the Jews, the italians and the Irish who could never settle on the US territory because of their low-IQ.”

      You’re spouting propaganda. The leader of the congressional effort to open immigration to Jews was Zebulon Vance no blank slater but exactly the opposite, the former confederate governor of North Carolina. Nonsense has been spouted by propagandists for years that Jews, Irish, etc. were widely thought to be dumb by the native population. The purpose of such misdirection is to create sympathy for groups of third worlders who now hope to migrate and were barred (as much as possible) following the end of Lincoln’s war (and had been barred by most non-slave holding states for decades previous). It is true that many in the North disliked Irish for their Catholicism and Jews for their perceived mercantile prowess, but contra popular fiction, it was the Yankee North that was inhabited by a class of puritan descendant widely despised throughout the rest of the nation. Irish filled the growing colonies for more than a couple of centuries before the famine with no significant opposition and the intellectual prowess of Jews was widely recognized. Read Vance’s comments on the subject (available online at https://archive.org/details/cu31924028615098).

      In fact, the historical record suggests immigration from such places was hoped to reach the South and operate to diminish the relative size of the black population which was viewed by whites throughout the nation as a large problem both before and after Lincoln’s War.

      Curle

      September 1, 2015 at 1:54 pm

    • Singapore, India, China, Indonesia, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Mexico and most other non-white nations don’t allow immigrants and are all thriving. Are they losers?

      I would love to see which “old WASPS” stated that Jews have low IQs. Did you learn this in your “white privilege seminar”?

      Bernie

      September 1, 2015 at 6:41 pm

      • This is an oversimplification of WASP opinion of immigration.

        Lothrop Stoddard said ethnic whites (including Jews and Italians) were of good stock and assimilable.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        September 1, 2015 at 9:15 pm

  11. “Corporations make money not because they know what they are doing, but because they have monopoly power.”

    ….

    SOME corporations have monopoly power, and they are always extremely profitable. Bill Gates and Carlos Slim, are monopolists, and look what it’s done for them – they are two richest men in the world. Most corporations (retailers, groceries, automobiles, airlines, computer manufacturers, restaurants, etc.) have lots of competition, and they still manage to make a profit. Of course, it’s much better for the corporation to be a monoploy, because then you can provide crummy products at high prices and make a bundle (Mexican telecom comes to mind).

    BTW, Lion, you have a great blog – you’ll always be a winner to me (sniff, sniff).

    Black Death

    September 1, 2015 at 9:43 am

    • Poorly run monopolies are able to overpay their stupid management and deadweight employees without going out of business. They would be able to make even more money with smarter people.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      September 1, 2015 at 11:23 am

  12. For federal government affirmative action hiring purposes, diplomas are much better than iq tests. Blacks would always do poorly on iq tests and then you couldn’t hire them. if you just require a diploma, then a diploma from a third rate college with no standards is equal to a diploma from a better college. For example, our only black female accountant has a degree from Ashford University in Iowa. I just googled that school and it’s so bad that the school completely closed in July. Our only Asian female accountant was a star pupil at Indiana University, one who won an award as one of the best 300 out of thirty thousand students the year she graduated. When they were hired, they would have been both considered equivalent because they both had degrees. The black woman always comes in late, yaks on the phone all day, takes hour long lunches and has to have everything explained to her by the Asian girl, who is obviously much smarter than her. There were probably hundreds of white and Asian college grads from real schools who were passed over to give this woman her job which she got because she has a “degree”.

    Mark

    September 1, 2015 at 3:08 pm

    • A native, young female, White accountant – What an Oxymoron!

      JS

      September 1, 2015 at 6:31 pm

    • There were probably hundreds of white and Asian college grads from real schools who were passed over to give this woman her job which she got because she has a “degree”.

      You are spot on about this. I recently had the unpleasant experience of encountering the biggest incompetent I’ve experienced in my working life (of three decades). This fellow is a vet who got a degree from one of those for-profit open admission diploma mills (I believe Ashford was one as well). He never went anywhere in the military but they did pay for an online ‘education.’ He can’t have an IQ any higher than 100 if that, but he took advantage of the new affirmative action which is the ‘hire the vet’ campaign being rolled out across the US. He’s white but really, really dumb. The school he attended graduated only 9 percent of entering freshmen and the class was 40% black.

      I’m no fan of Obama but he deserves credit for putting financial clamps on the open admission for profit online university scam that congressional Republicans encouraged. The fellow I mentioned, his alma mater is under federal oversight and may well close. I’d bet Obama’s financial constraints put the skids to Ashford as well. These places survive on federal money.

      Curle

      September 2, 2015 at 1:07 am

  13. @LotB: the HR department couldn’t care less if managers hired stupid people, but they were very, very concerned that mangers weren’t hiring enough black and Hispanic people.

    Each quarter, the HR department of my 900-person employer surreptitiously reports the number of blacks, Hispanics, and females it employs to the federal EEOC.

    And, while my employer’s small HR department is staffed with five full-time SWPL-like females, and has been that way for thirty years, it’s never employed a male, a black, or a minority.

    E. Rekshun

    September 2, 2015 at 5:58 pm

  14. I loved my IT big Boss for many reasons: brilliant, awesome knowledge of the brokerage industry, great sense of humor, expert politician, ruthless in fighting for his turf. We had no blacks in our department and HR requested that he diversify. The man refused to hire anyone. He said that unless he can do it his way, which is the only way he knows how to hire, HR should do the hiring, supply him with workers and be responsible for the results. He got his way. The sad ending is that he was laid off in his mid-sixties and ended up retiring.

    Yakov

    September 2, 2015 at 9:22 pm


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