Lion of the Blogosphere

To make money, be a sailor or a nurse

That’s what the new government college scorecard tells us.

I’ve always recommended nursing as the best career option for less intelligent students, and I was right on the money. Literally.

I am surprised that maritime colleges perform so well. I know very little about that students learn at these colleges and what sort of jobs they get after graduation.

Below these top two types of schools, highest salaries come from engineering schools and elite schools (such as Ivy League schools).

Interpreting the subtleties of the scorecard will be too difficult for most dumb people. For some mysterious reason, the crappy for-profit University of Phoenix comes out looking pretty good as far as salaries go, so something looks wrong. Where do the numbers come from? Who is auditing them?

Additionally, the salary is heavily influenced by location (there are higher salaries in high cost-of-living areas like New York City) and what students are majoring in and there is no information about how a different major at a particular school could dramatically change the expected salary outcome.

The listed cost of attending is very confusing, because it shows the cost for students who receive financial aid, so the least expensive schools appear to be the ones with the poorest students because they receive the most financial aid. It is much better to look at how much your child will be paying and not how much other people are paying which doesn’t really help the parent or student using this tool.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

September 13, 2015 at 10:37 am

Posted in Education

94 Responses

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  1. the University of Phoenix actually has a pretty good carve-out which is reflected in these salaries. For many professions, a person will have all the boxes checked for a big promotion but be missing a degree or grad degree. So the hiring committees pull them aside and tell them to take crappy night school in anything just to shut HR up. This is REALLY common in teachers going on to be principals or mid-level military officers going on to the next rung.
    So if a teacher gets a Masters in Administering Ministrations, she gets a MASSIVE raise. But UofP will tell you, of course, that it was that school that did it for them, not that it was a stupid requirement everyone rolls their eyes at but no one can fix.
    But if a few guys go from teacher to principal and a few soliders go from 03 to 04, it really boosts their #s


    September 13, 2015 at 11:11 am

    • “This is REALLY common in teachers going on to be principals or mid-level military officers going on to the next rung”

      Definitely true. More accurately, “This is REALLY common in the public sector, including the military”. Schools that sell diploma-mill merchandise aren’t necessarily a bad deal.


      September 13, 2015 at 1:06 pm

      • They are a terrible deal for society. Check-the-block exercise are a waste of funds and a craptacular way of promoting people. HR drones are a plague upon the earth.

        Some Guy

        September 13, 2015 at 7:48 pm

    • Army officers used to get masters degrees when they were captains, but I’ve never heard of any getting them at for-profit schools. Teachers either.

      Dave Pinsen

      September 14, 2015 at 4:40 am

      • Exactly. I have met many, many military officers, and have NEVER met one who got a degree from a for-profit / diploma mill type place. Some of them went to big state schools for graduate degrees, but that’s not the same.


        September 14, 2015 at 10:00 am

      • I suspect you’ve met a lot of fairly senior retired officers. Somebody who retired as an O6 or higher probably has a real masters, JD or even PhD. Somebody who got out prior to 20 or retired as an O4 or O5 almost always has a diploma mill masters. FWIW, a big state school can be a diploma mill, particularly when it comes to high volume/high profit degree programs such as Ed.M.


        September 14, 2015 at 5:28 pm

      • I suspect you’ve met a lot of fairly senior retired officers. Somebody who retired as an O6 or higher probably has a real masters, JD or even PhD. Somebody who got out prior to 20 or retired as an O4 or O5 almost always has a diploma mill masters. FWIW, a big state school can be a diploma mill, particularly when it comes to high volume/high profit degree programs such as Ed.M.

        I was in the Army Reserve and ROTC. Never heard an officer with a degree from a degree mill, and I never heard of one with an Ed. degree. Some had masters degrees in engineering, some in history or poly sci, some had MBAs.

        Dave Pinsen

        September 14, 2015 at 8:45 pm

  2. The maritime thing is true. One of my relatives is a marine engineer in his twenties. He graduated from an obscure school with little debt and had maybe 150 grand of cash in the bank within a couple of years. And he wasn’t even trying to maximize his income- there are some pretty ridiculous numbers you can earn if all you want to do is earn money. The non-engineer deck hands don’t do quite that well, but it’s still a pretty good deal.

    The jobs where you really rake it in are sort of like oil rig jobs: you’re away from home for long stretches of time, working long hours in seedy and boring environments. On the plus side, though, your expenses are virtually zero while you’re on board, so you can bank everything. And you get a ton of vacation time in between work stints. I forget exactly how the schedule works, but I think it’s four months on, two months off or something like that. The vacations are long enough to do a second job or some other major activity. A lot of guys just veg out, obviously.

    The schedule obviously isn’t conducive to health family life, so the guys who do this for their whole careers tend to be…characters. A more normal person would ideally get a marine engineering degree and the training time to get licensed, and then ship out for a few years in his twenties, saving a ton of money and doing epic foreign trips or some other fun activity during vacations. He could then transition to a decent-paying shore job. A marine engineering background translates reasonably well to general mechanical engineering, since a ship contains pretty much every system on it.

    The high shipping pay is completely a product of the protectionist Jones Act, which requires that any ship traveling between two U.S. ports be U.S. flagged and crewed by Americans. Otherwise the whole industry would be dominated by cheap foreigners, as the international passages already are.


    September 13, 2015 at 11:21 am

    • You are right about the Jones Act. And a lot of people are trying to repeal or punch holes into it, so you better be careful if you go into a currently protected shipping job. Internationalist wage cutters always get what they want in the end.


      September 13, 2015 at 2:15 pm

    • The “marine engineering” you are describing isn’t truly engineering, regardless of the misuse of the title. Engineers design the ships, mechanics/operators operate them. This is analogous to “operating engineers” (construction equipment operators), audio “engineers” (recording technicians), etc.


      September 13, 2015 at 2:24 pm

      • Marine Engineering is an formal engineering discipline with four-year B.Sc. degrees. Like I said, it’s somewhat comparable to mechanical engineering except focused specifically on ships. The core math and science classes have the same level of rigorousness that they have in other engineering fields.

        Marine engineers and naval architects can both work on ship design, although marine engineering is more focused on engines and internal systems rather than hull design. (Naval Architecture, somewhat confusingly named, is also an engineering discipline. Both naval architects and marine engineers are eligible to take the F.E. and P.E. exams and become professional engineers with stamps.)

        Marine engineers and naval architects can both ship out as engineers or work in white-collar office jobs.


        September 13, 2015 at 5:15 pm

      • I understand there is a formal engineering specialty of naval/marine engineering and naval architecture. My alma mater for example, Stevens Institute of Technology, has one of the oldest and world’s leading programs in that field (it is called Ocean Engineering and Naval Engineering there), up to PhD level. What I was referring to was that I have come across people who call themselves “engineers” (or the shipping company they work for does), who have no engineering degree and are the operators of the ship’s engines and other systems. Engineering means design and creation, not simply operating. And yes, the OE/NE majors from Stevens do quite well. Most are designers in shipbuilding and military. The newly minted head of the US Naval Academy’s OE department is a Stevens PhD for example.

        Cheers, Michael, PhD, PE Consulting Aerospace Engineer


        September 14, 2015 at 11:26 am

  3. Nursing is definitely a prole major. Nursing students learn enough just to get the jobs, and I recall the nursing majors being very non-academic in their interests.
    Nurses or close relatives of nurses will be offended, but overall, they tend to be very unpleasant to deal with, even in slow moving clinics. I thought I was alone in this, but a simple google search will display that many people have similar complaints.

    The relatively high salaries of University of Phoenix may be due to the fact that much of its students are older, returning to school, and doing it online. They may have previous work experience and get the degree for a promotion. On the other hand, a kid that goes to Phoenix straight out of high school, with no professional work experience after his degree is completed, will encounter crappy prospects.


    September 13, 2015 at 11:37 am

    • “a kid that goes to Phoenix straight out of high school, with no professional work experience after his degree is completed, will encounter crappy prospects”

      An example of the government site is providing misleading information.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      September 13, 2015 at 11:41 am

      • All salary data is misleading. Even the highest salaries reported at elite schools. This is because they rely on surveys. Who is most willing to brag about how well they are doing? Why, the successful students. The unsuccessful are too embarrassed to say anything.

        What’s really needed is data from tax returns.


        September 13, 2015 at 12:31 pm

    • The Univ. of Phoenix information is highly suspect. For one, each branch of the school is listed as having the same salary post-graduation, so clearly they are not measuring each campus based on the performance of that campus. Further, note the extremely low graduation rates (see Maryland Campus-11% graduation rate). I couldn’t find the Wichita campus but this article says it has a 1.5% graduation rate and is listed as one of the top diploma mills/dropout factories in the US (I wonder why it isn’t on the site?). Here’s my guess, that U Phoenix is cooking the numbers. That the $53K represents only those who actually graduate (a small percent of the total) and I wouldn’t put it past them to massage those numbers as well (did they break out the graduate programs?; did they only include certain majors?; was the number taken only from one high performing school?). Having read quite a bit on these for-profit schools, fudging the numbers has been the norm not the exception.

      These places make their money off the people who don’t graduate, not the graduates. As such they target the single mothers from the ghetto with a GED and these people, mostly, drop out. Thirty percent of their students are black. They do the same with vets. I’d bet money these numbers don’t include the 90%+ drop-outs (after all where would they get the info?). I’d also bet they aren’t particularly great at collecting post-graduate salary info (it has been noted in the law school setting that those who are doing well are much more likely to return surveys and those struggling don’t). Check the US Senate report on these for profit schools before believing any of this stuff regarding post-grad salaries.


      September 13, 2015 at 2:51 pm

    • A pretty good discussion of the topic that calls out U of Phoenix.


      September 13, 2015 at 3:02 pm

    • People who are sick or who have loved ones who are often aren’t entirely objective in their comments on nurses or physicians. It’s tough to be objective in those situations.

      Dave Pinsen

      September 14, 2015 at 4:44 am

    • Somebody’s gotta draw blood and change the bedpans…


      September 14, 2015 at 10:02 am

  4. One of the dumbest college students I’ve ever met who failed out of biology at my crappy school, transferred to do some kind of marine/merchant/sailing degree at a sailor university and, at least based on Facebook, has a really cool job making lots of money now…I’m actually a little jealous.

    Nurses are pretty prole. Most marry firefighters and cops. I’ve seen lots of nurses who can’t spell simple medical terms.

    But the truth of nursing is that you have to care about your patients, not be really smart. A bitchy neglectful nurse who is dumb is the worst of all possible worlds.

    A trend I’ve noticed is that doctors tend to be white and asian, and nursing staff filipino, black, latina, etc. so now you have the same interracial communication problems that you see between the officer and enlisted corps in the military.


    September 13, 2015 at 11:52 am

    • A lot of prole occupations offer good pay, job security and benefits. Certain elitist endeavors do not.

      Grinding long hours for a fat paycheck is prolish.

      Lion should stop turning this blog for the likes of Yakov!


      September 13, 2015 at 1:06 pm

      • JS, I comment on these subjects primary to enlighten folks like you that lack appreciation of what real people and real jobs are like. I’m more interested in reading about HBD and stuff like that.


        September 13, 2015 at 4:56 pm

      • Yakov, In America, one doesn’t need to appreciate honest and nice people, because this country reeks of hypocrisy, everywhere you go. I like realistic people. I don’t see any middle ground, as a normality in the USA. Either you join the league of sociopaths at the top or stay with the ones at the bottom. Many blue collar jobs pay a middle class wage, but you’re loser, because the losers lower than you, live just as well, relatively comparing, and the winners above you, exploit you to their benefit. I only recommend trades, if you decide to leave the country to a beautiful place such as Canada, where they can really use you to maintain a more functional and nice looking country.


        September 14, 2015 at 11:15 am

      • Yakov, The worse city in Canada, is probably Winnipeg.

        It’s a joke, when you compare it to our dysfunctional cities. Winnipeg is actually a nice city, on par with a Southwestern American City like Salt Lake City or even San Diego. There are a lot of Canadian proles who live in that city, along with Native Americans, but not many blacks, and overall, it’s a safe place, when comparing to our dangerous cities.

        Similarly comparing, the worse craft beer in Montreal I’ve tried so far, is better than anything I’ve drunk in NYC.


        September 14, 2015 at 11:54 am

    • marrying a good looking firefighter is a pretty big status boost for a woman, even swpl get gina tingles for them. the wives of cops aren’t as lucky though.


      September 13, 2015 at 9:39 pm

  5. Kings Point is probably the best deal going for those who aren’t destined for an Ivy or other elite school.


    September 13, 2015 at 12:04 pm

    • Getting into Kings Point is almost as tough as getting into an Ivy.
      To echo a prior comment, being a sailor is a good career for Americans only so long as the Jones Act remains in effect. If it’s ever repealed the career prospects will all but disappear.



      September 13, 2015 at 1:29 pm

  6. Top story at the NYT today is how climate change will cause the “Next Genocide.” I don’t understand the argument fully, but European nationalists and Vladimir Putin are also to blame.

    The article doesn’t say anything about the actual genocide that is being perpetrated by ISIS against Christians and Yazidi in Syria and Iraq.


    September 13, 2015 at 12:36 pm

    • The Middle East Christians and Yazidi’s and other minorities need a home land*, or be resettled throughout the world. Otherwise they’re doomed.

      *There are about 2M Syrian Christians and 250k Yazidi. Guantanamo Bay Naval Base is 45 sq mi. At Manhattan’s population density of 26,403 people/sq mi that’s about 1.2M people that can be resettled there. Then, as Sailer points out, there’s the Golan Heights.


      September 13, 2015 at 10:03 pm

      • I am more concerned about PREVENTING the “resettlement” of Arabs throughout the world than saving the Yazidis etc. Europe is already doomed because of the Muslim influx. We need to make sure we are not also doomed.


        September 14, 2015 at 10:05 am

  7. LotB: For some mysterious reason, the crappy for-profit University of Phoenix comes out looking pretty good as far as salaries go, so something looks wrong.

    Like oo-ee and markus have said, this is due to, not only teachers, but cops, firewhiners, and other government bureaucrats trying to get an easy promotion.

    Nursing is interesting. In the mid ’90s, I dated a RN who also went on to get her Masters in Nursing and became an ARNP. She and most of her grad school classmates have never been able to get ARNP jobs – to many applicants/to few jobs – so they’ve been stuck doing bedside nursing; and (unsuccessfully) doing everything they can to get away from patients.

    Anyway, nursing allows for some unusual work shifts. For about four years, my former paramour worked one full-time nursing job (three 12-hour shifts = 40 hours pay) at hospital one, then did the same thing at hospital two. She was earning two $65K paychecks each year in the early ’00s. Being an ARNP, she’s allowed to do hospital rounds for doctors. She’s done that for a few doctors at $35 per 10-min visit, but she has to cobble together five or six patients at dispersed hospitals and drive through S. FL traffic. The doc then bills medicare for whatever the rate is (probably something like $90+).

    She now has a full-time position as a psych nurse at the county jail – easy 40-hour per week government jog w/ excellent benefits. Many nurse want to get this kind of steady job; then they hustle up various shifts at hospitals and other health care facilities and nearly double their $70K government salary.

    E. Rekshun

    September 13, 2015 at 12:55 pm

    • Why be a nurse if you don’t want to tend to the needs of patients?

      These people make me shake my head. If you hate people go work as a prison guard, and make equal or more money and you can be a nurse ratchet all day.


      September 13, 2015 at 8:53 pm

      • I had a Korean nurse once who seemed like she wasn’t into nursing at all – at least she didn’t appreciate when I had her wipe my ass. Really seemed to be mailing it in. So I made her do a more thorough job. In her case, I’m guessing she did it for the money. Probably wouldn’t have lasted in the pokey.

        Dave Pinsen

        September 14, 2015 at 5:03 am

      • Quite simple. The compensation and chances for somebody from a non-status position in life is alluring. Nurse Anesthetists can make around 150 K starting and in my neck of the woods it goes further than some status signaling SWPL in Manhattan. As I write this post I am studying nursing in hopes to someday become a CRNA. However, I will agree the subject matter is inane, the people insufferable and unpleasant, but I will tolerate it for the chance to get mid-level to low level six figures. If I cannot get into CRNA school then I am seriously considering becoming a Pathologist Assistant or Acute Care NP.


        September 14, 2015 at 5:38 pm

      • @ Deepfriedsouthernprole –

        I would suggest becoming a clinical physician assistant rather than a pathologist assistant because doing so offers more career flexibility. You would be able to move back and forth between different internal medicine subspecialties, work with surgeons, etc. There are far more clinician practices than pathologist practices for which you could work.. Whichever way you go, attend the most affordable institution that you can since degree prestige is not an issue. I know a graduate from one of the most exorbitantly expensive P.A. programs who got into really crippling debt.


        September 15, 2015 at 12:12 am

  8. Lion previously blogged about how nursing is a borderline prole occupation. And I think I’ve previously commented on how I’ve seen this so far in my medical career. Many of the nurses I encounter seem borderline white trashy in the way they carry themselves, their hair and makeup, etc. And as was pointed out in the previous thread, their husbands/serious boyfriends are blue-collar guys.


    September 13, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    • I think the proleness of nursing is more than borderline. Yes, white nurses can be white trashy, and NAM nurses have a ghetto aspect. This applies to dental hygienists as well.


      September 13, 2015 at 5:41 pm

    • Registered nursing has actually been moving in the opposite direction. They’ve been increasing the degree requirements, for example. My sister had a bachelors degree in another field before going to a 2-year program to become an RN, but a few years ago she had to get a second bachelors in nursing because more jobs were requiring it (she didn’t get the degree from a for-profit school).

      Another way it’s been moving in the opposite direction is by delegating a lot of scut work to others: LPNs, CNAs, orderlies, etc. The exceptions seem to be in higher stakes situations like intensive care. When I was hospitalized a few years ago, I got hands on care from RNs in the intensive care unit. When I was transferred to a regular unit, the RNs were mostly ordering around others and supervising. E.g., they didn’t take your vitals, they had lackeys do that. They basically supervised your care; docs came by once a day on rounds.

      Dave Pinsen

      September 14, 2015 at 4:56 am

    • You are lucky if you get a white trash nurse. Many of them are sullen black women or African immigrants.


      September 14, 2015 at 10:07 am

  9. My older brother attended Heald business college and went on to do just fine, working at Intel, traveling to Asia on their behalf etc.

    Of course that was the early to mid 90s, in a good economy and less dire job situation.


    September 13, 2015 at 1:11 pm

    • Wow! Good for him. Upon completing my MBA at a top 30 MBA program, I had three interviews at Intel in San Diego but didn’t receive an offer.

      E. Rekshun

      September 13, 2015 at 6:09 pm

      • The mid to late 90s was the age of the dot com boom, and the economy was on fire. I could quit a job, and get an offer, upon walking out the door to another. It was also the time when NYC was also on fire, because Giuliani was mayor, and gentrification was just starting to happen.


        September 14, 2015 at 7:06 pm

  10. This book published by Princeton University Press, debunks LIon’s theory that prole students at the Ivies have equal opportunities, as their elite classmates, especially when it comes to BIGLAW and Wall St.


    September 13, 2015 at 1:14 pm

    • True story, as I know this Hispanic kid who grew up in the public housing projects, raised in single parent household, and had the opportunity to attend Harvard. Still lives with his mom at the age of 30+, because he’s working on a Master’s degree in Religion. He tells me he couldn’t stand most of the elite students at Harvard, (him being a lower class, White Hispanic at the backdrop of an Anglo/Jewish WASP environment), and thus he wasn’t able to social network with them.


      September 13, 2015 at 1:22 pm

      • I notice this with prole and/or NAM kids…if they manage to make it to a good college, a common complaint is that they can’t relate to their higher class peers. I admit my background is prole, but I can no longer deal with the type of people of my childhood social background; I have reconnected with old high school friends and kids from the neighborhood, and after the years of separation, they are, in a cultural and ideological sense, complete strangers to me.
        That’s one of the biggest questions I ask myself: Why do poor kids insist on staying in their “social comfort zone”, even when given the opportunity to break out?


        September 13, 2015 at 5:52 pm

      • He’s probably not outgoing and might give off a weird vibe, otherwise, the privileged White students at Harvard would have embraced him so they could say they have an Hispanic friend.

        E. Rekshun

        September 13, 2015 at 6:12 pm

      • The upper classes have their own unique social pathologies and nuances, that nice prole kids, might not be able to understand and relate.


        September 14, 2015 at 11:04 am

      • @markus — heh, as a downwardly mobile failed self-actualizer I’ve had a similar experience in the opposite direction. After a decade plus in the real world, I find it difficult if not impossible to relate to former classmates who are still in the SWPL/hipster/academia bubble.

        Ivy League Prole

        September 14, 2015 at 11:47 am

    • JS – send Lion and a literary agent an e-mail, copy Lion with the agent and copy the agent with Lion. He should write a book like this, but of course with a snappier cover. Wait, he has already written a book like this.

      howitzer daniel

      September 13, 2015 at 4:56 pm

      • Or Lion could independently self publish his book, without a 3rd party, and sell it on

        Unless you’re an academic, getting your “stuff” pimped by a publishing agent is prole!


        September 14, 2015 at 11:02 am

    • Did you actually read it. The papers I have read of hers are typical “qualitative” sociology, zero rigour. The actual claim, class background affects hiring, is almost certainly true. The question is whether this has a small or large effect. I would suggest nothing in that book actually contributes to the answer.


      September 14, 2015 at 6:10 am

      • I believe the author asserts that prole students at Harvard, have a lot more opportunities than their peers, but fall significantly short, when it comes to climbing the elite ladder, only afforded to the upper middle class, as a starting point.


        September 14, 2015 at 10:59 am

  11. Two excellent occupation choices! Nurses, and I mean white nurses, are very nice people. I don’t remember encountering a bad one. I would gladly marry one, it’s one of the best occupations for a woman.

    The Mishna, tells us that most sailors are pious, I’m not sure if it’s still true, but in the Mishnaic period it certainly was. Having to face the mighty forces of nature in a flimsy vessel should make one pious. You can see from the book of Jonah that it was so. At any rate, it’s an excellent trade.


    September 13, 2015 at 5:02 pm

    • Sailers are known to carouse in sin during their shore leaves. I ran into a few merchant marine officers in Rio once – real partiers on land.

      Dave Pinsen

      September 14, 2015 at 4:59 am

    • You don’t want to marry a woman who (a) has to be around diseased people all day, and (b) works under the authority of males (doctors) who have high prestige and high salary.


      September 14, 2015 at 10:09 am

    • You don’t know what you’re talking about. I work in a hospital and nurses (esp. white ones) are total bitches UNLESS you outrank them.


      September 14, 2015 at 12:42 pm

  12. Also, important to understand why nursing is such a great profession. A nurse does good the whole day by helping her fellow men. I find that many go well beyond the call of duty in doing so. Most occupations advocated on this blog as value transference are pretty revolting. Not for straight forward people, but for creeps who just want to get rich producing nothing and contributing nothing.


    September 13, 2015 at 6:56 pm

  13. Sailing and nursing do offer reasonable compensation but will do little in terms of status elevation. If you are a sailor you will spend most of your life around drunks and ner’ do wells. It is a rootless life full of danger..which is great if you’re into that kind of thing but it’s hard on a family.

    Nursing is a sure path to high proledom. Nurses never associate with the doctors outside of work because they can’t relate. They aren’t even attracted to them because their intelligence wigs them out. A nurse at a hospital is more likely to go out drinking with the receptionists and date the security guard.


    September 13, 2015 at 7:36 pm

    • I don’t know if “wigs them out” is the right idiom. It’s more that many nurses are cool, “popular girl” types, and they view male doctors as nerdy dweebs.


      September 14, 2015 at 12:27 am

      • That’s because nurses are proles. The popular, pretty cheerleader types in high school are almost exclusively high prole. Even if they marry a rich guy he is usually a prole too. Smart, swpl-in-waiting girls are usually plain jane in high school but in the end get the biggest status catch.


        September 14, 2015 at 12:36 pm

    • “Nurses never associate with the doctors outside of work because they can’t relate.”

      Are you kidding? Doctors associate with nurses outside of work all the time because they want to bang them. Nurses are unquestionably attracted to the doctor’s status and income.

      My mom, who is a doctor, often noted sardonically that many male doctors married nurses and then wondered why the resulting offspring were stupid. Case in point — neurosurgeon she knew married a nurse and then his son didn’t go to college and wound up working as a motorcycle mechanic.


      September 14, 2015 at 10:13 am

      • Demonstrates the truth of HBD.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        September 14, 2015 at 11:23 am

      • I’m not disputing that doctors want to have sex with nurses. However, there is a much lower chance that she will marry a doctor than say the local cop, cable guy or that motorcycle mechanic.

        There is no question though that female nurses rarely, if ever, socialize with the female doctors outside of work. They are usually not friends because they have little in common.


        September 14, 2015 at 12:33 pm

      • Why is a motorcycle mechanic stupid? Do you know to fix an engine? That’s exactly the shitty kind of attitude that has ruined this country.

        I’ll bet the son of doctor/nurse has a high IQ, but either was spoiled, or had emotional problems and couldn’t handle college, or simply didn’t want to go to college and preferred to work with his hands.



        September 14, 2015 at 12:51 pm

      • Good points. This also demonstrates hypergamy and reminds me of my dentist, who owns a boat and takes out his staff (all female) on day cruises during holiday weekends. The hygienists are prolish and married, but his front desk staff are all young and almost model hot. It may be hard to prove, but to doubt that he’s banging somebody (or several) from the office would be extremely naive.

        I think what B.T.D.T. meant was social differences between nurses and doctors; a casual conversation with a doctor vs a conversation with a nurse are two very different experiences.


        September 14, 2015 at 2:09 pm

      • Even my gay dentist’s receptionist is pretty good looking.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        September 14, 2015 at 4:05 pm

      • Why is a motorcycle mechanic stupid?

        They’re not paid a median salary in the low 30s because they’re smart — and smart people are not attracted to that line of work due to that low salary (as well as the low prestige and the dirty manual labor).

        It ain’t rocket science.


        September 14, 2015 at 2:09 pm

      • I’m not disputing that doctors want to have sex with nurses. However, there is a much lower chance that she will marry a doctor than say the local cop, cable guy or that motorcycle mechanic.

        There is no question though that female nurses rarely, if ever, socialize with the female doctors outside of work. They are usually not friends because they have little in common

        Even though it’s not uncommon for doctors and nurses to hook up, when it’s time to settle down, that’s where the differences come to light (e.g. child rearing methods, religiosity, entertainment choices, where the expenses go, etc.)


        September 14, 2015 at 2:18 pm

      • I’ll bet the son of doctor/nurse has a high IQ, but either was spoiled, or had emotional problems and couldn’t handle college, or simply didn’t want to go to college and preferred to work with his hands.

        Might be just as well. A couple that was friends with my parents consisted of a neurologist and his social worker wife. They had two daughters, one of whom the father successfully pressured to go into medicine. She went to an elite university and medical school. Now she’s dead – suicide after getting caught up in prescription violation.

        Dave Pinsen

        September 14, 2015 at 4:08 pm

      • I dunno. I’ve known a couple of physician-nurse offspring; both were pretty smart. One had an accounting degree, but didn’t like the field and was thinking of going into nursing, but her mother told her to become a physician assistant instead. The other went to PA school after college. She probably could have handled medical school but had different priorities. Now she’s a mom married to a finance guy who makes high six figures, and she works in a plastic surgery clinic.

        Dave Pinsen

        September 14, 2015 at 4:16 pm

      • a casual conversation with a doctor vs a conversation with a nurse are two very different experiences.

        For one thing, the former conversation is most likely extremely boring!


        September 14, 2015 at 4:29 pm

      • I don’t know any nurses, I only know doctors.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        September 14, 2015 at 5:53 pm

      • I have met many doctors. The vast majority of them are boring. They know and care about nothing else besides doctoring and (maybe) golf. That’s fine… I want my doc to be totally focused on his job… but it doesn’t make for much of a conversation.

        Not that not knowing about anything besides doctoring ever stopped a doctor from having a vehement opinion about other subjects, of course.


        September 14, 2015 at 7:29 pm

      • @Tarl, I’ve commented previously on how that’s exactly why so many doctors today marry other doctors (in particular why male doctors, whom some might think would have more options, marry female doctors.) Most people who go to medical school are biomedical science nerds who have done nothing but eat, sleep, and breathe biology their entire lives They don’t really have anything in common with anyone from outside that little bubble.


        September 14, 2015 at 9:43 pm

      • Maybe that was the case for your mother’s generation of doctors and nurses, but among my generation, doctor-nurse pairings occur much less than doctor-doctor pairings.


        September 15, 2015 at 12:40 am

  14. I’m wondering how low-IQ nurses can be. Don’t they have to pass college level math and science courses? I can’t see how a 90 IQ person can do this. We have to keep in mind also that nursing is a two year training program and often a 4 year college program. Those who can make it through are already somewhat future-oriented. It’s not like taking a 12 week course where you take some Mickey Mouse subject that you could probably learn on the job in a few months with a little bit of book study at home. A lot of nurses do quite well financially (relative to other proles) and therefore would have enough money for a lot of books, educational experiences, and travel that would enable them to become more SWPL in outlook or values. Or at least more interesting conversationalists! Maybe a lot of people are confusing nurses with nurse’s aide’s or medical assistants, who get a lot less training than nurses do.


    September 13, 2015 at 7:56 pm

    • The length of the program really tells us nothing anymore. Modern education grants credentials after a long period of drudgery, but it’s not necessarily difficult or relevant drudgery. It might well mean you’re not more skilled, just that you exit the program older and more deeply in debt. But credentialed, so HR can tick that box.


      September 14, 2015 at 5:05 am

    • At my medical school they train nurse practitioners, and I am completely amazed at how low the requirements are. They almost never have classes, and the ones they do have aren’t very difficult, and the future NPs do not give off a very intellectual or smart vibe.


      September 14, 2015 at 10:22 am

    • Some hospitals make them take tests before they hire them. The tests require a basic knowledge of algebra, etc., in addition to nursing-specific knowledge.

      Dave Pinsen

      September 14, 2015 at 5:22 pm

    • I had a housemate once who was attending nursing school. The biology and chemisty courses for nurses are less rigorous than those required of pe-med students. I believe Anatomy and physiology were the same courses that doctors took. Anyway, the curriculum is not neccessarily that demanding.

      She had a previous degree in history, and had done TEFL in Korea. But she had very Prolish ways of having a good time. She was mexican, but 3rd or fourth generation american. I had thought she was Italian.

      another commenter

      September 14, 2015 at 6:41 pm

  15. Lion, it looks like Trump has the support of the Religious Right:

    “True Believer? Why Donald Trump Is The Choice Of The Religious Right”


    September 13, 2015 at 8:50 pm

    • Not that surprising. Many Evangelicals, especially those living in the South, know that there is a distance between the statements of their church leaders on things involving race and the real world. With all the blarney about this nation’s success with immigration one need only go to the South to witness a large population of unassimilated people.


      September 14, 2015 at 1:12 am

  16. OT: The new cool thing to do among progressive is to express their desire about wanting to open their own homes to Syrian refugees immigrating to the West. I find it ironic how they welcome Muslims with open arms when Islam is such a violent, homophobic, sexist, misogynistic, and patriarchal religion. Some comments on Reddit Portland about how Redditers exoticize Syrians:
    “We should welcome them with a Syrian food cart.”

    “It would probably be better if some of the refugees started their own Syrian food carts.”

    “I’m always down for more Mediterranean food options.”

    “Sounds like a mutually beneficial arrangement. Immigrants have always used food as a way to integrate into our culture and also feed me.”

    “Good! I wholeheartedly welcome these people. I can’t imaging what they’ve been through. I hope they are warmly welcomed here.”


    September 14, 2015 at 2:41 am


      These people willfully wish to destroy their entire country and sink their ship if it means beating the reds.

      You can be the muslim isis conservative guy who thinks all women need to be circumcized and wear niqab and that fags should be stoned to death, but the liberal “blue” will still love you because of your “great food”…but if a white conservative says “maybe gay marriage isn’t right…I was raised to think it was man vs woman and that’s worked out okay for centuries”, the liberal will lose their fucking mind.


      September 14, 2015 at 10:24 am

    • NOT ALL Syrian refugees are MUSLIMS!

      Yes, we need them to gentrify prole towns, with more food options of Falafel and Hummus. All of Meriprolestan needs to become a gigantic NYC.

      The sheer number of Midwest migrants to NYC is astounding. Those with money want to get the hell out of their boring flyover towns, for the big cities that offer diversity. Wonderbread towns are boring and bland, and they offer less food options.

      I look at Meriprolestan’s problems, as an intersection between globalization and parochialism. There’s seems to be a tug-o-war between the old guard of White America proledom and the 21st century, bobo globalists. We know who’s winning at the moment.


      September 14, 2015 at 1:58 pm

  17. One of my steps went from welfare to nursing, and aced the state exam. She did just a 2 year RN program and went right to work. she married a guy with a good job with the county, union work. yet years later they still don’t have a pot to piss in, no down payment for a house…but I guess they have fun traveling and playing golf. they must make 90k between them which is great here in flyover.

    Mrs Stitch

    September 14, 2015 at 10:55 am

    • My sister made 60-something by May this year, nursing in NYC. Then she took the summer off.

      Dave Pinsen

      September 14, 2015 at 4:26 pm

  18. “Why is a motorcycle mechanic stupid? Do you know to fix an engine? That’s exactly the shitty kind of attitude that has ruined this country.”

    I never said that a motorcycle mechanic was stupid. And i am sure there are motorcycle mechanics that are smarter than some doctors. I was referring to social class status and not intelligence.


    September 14, 2015 at 2:11 pm

    • Are all physicians considered high status these days, even ones that work in Medicaid mills?

      Dave Pinsen

      September 14, 2015 at 4:28 pm

  19. A $60,000/yr starting salary with full benefits working 3 days a week is far from prole. (And that’s in Pittsburgh, which consistently ranks in the bottom 15% of nursing salaries nationwide.)

    In more desirable locations, such as Seattle, San Francisco, Boston, New York, Los Angeles, and even Philly and New Jersey, BSN RN’s are starting at $70-90,000/yr.

    Not to mention, hospitals will often pay for you to go back to school and get your MSN (2 years to become a nurse practitioner) after which you can expect to earn $100,000/yr.

    Or you can become a CRNA (nurse anesthetist) and make in excess of $200,000/yr. (1 year of ICU service + 27 months of school)

    It’s true that nurses are generally unpleasant, obstinate, and nasty people, but this is more a function of the culture of medicine, and is not necessarily native to the field of Nursing.


    September 14, 2015 at 11:42 pm

    • Worth noting that nurses who work 3 days per week usually work 12 hour shifts, often with no breaks. My sister knew one Korean nurse who made $300k per year with overtime.

      I don’t like the idea of nurse anesthetists, and am not sure how common they are. I wouldn’t be comfortable if I knew I was going to have one during an operation.

      Dave Pinsen

      September 15, 2015 at 4:43 pm

  20. Doctors may have high status is small towns where they are often one of the highest earners. In NYC and other big cities doctors earn less and other professionals earn more. In Manhattan a doctor is considered solidly middle class and medicine is considered a respectable but by no means impressive occupation.

    Nurse is a catchall phrase that covers many field. Nursing aides change bedpans and receive less than $15 an hour. A Nurse Anesthetist in NYC makes six figures and does complex procedures. Registered nurses pull down at least 60K a year in NYC. Even more if they are union.

    Nursing is hard work. Most well paid nurses work very hard; its a physically demanding profession.


    September 15, 2015 at 10:51 am

    • When I was growing up, my parents were good friends with four couples that included physician husbands. One had a former social worker wife, another had a wife who was a former nurse, and I forget what the other two wives did before they got married. They went to each other’s parties, had dinner together, even went on vacation together once. The point is that the physicians weren’t in a different social class than my parents, who had middle class jobs, although they made more money (though I’m sure not as much as some specialist physicians make today).

      Dave Pinsen

      September 15, 2015 at 4:50 pm

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