Lion of the Blogosphere

Arizona’s “stand your ground” law

A.R.S. 13-411 reads:

(A) A person is justified in threatening or using both physical force and deadly physical force against another if and to the extent the person reasonably believes that physical force or deadly physical force is immediately necessary to prevent the other’s commission of … aggravated assault under section 13-1204, subsection A, paragraphs 1 and 2.

(B) There is no duty to retreat before threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force justified by subsection A of this section.

So perhaps Steven Jones didn’t have to retreat if he reasonably believed that the frat brothers were going to beat him up, he could stand his ground and open fire. Assuming he didn’t start the fight in the first place.

* * *

It should be noted that “stand your ground” had nothing to do with the Zimmerman case, because Zimmerman was on the ground (not standing up) being beaten up and didn’t have a reasonable opportunity to retreat.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

October 11, 2015 at 8:14 am

Posted in Crime, Law

24 Responses

Subscribe to comments with RSS.

  1. Does the law require ones potential assailants to still be menacing him one brandishes the gun or is it OK to go Bernie Goetz style from being victimized to shooting them in a flash.

    Lloyd Llewellyn

    October 11, 2015 at 9:13 am

    • In Texas, you can shoot people for stealing your stuff. You don’t have to believe they are going to attack you. If I come home and find intruders stealing my lap top, I can shoot him in the back as he runs away even if he has run off my property. I am not allowed to shoot across a roadway. There was a big case here with a guy who shot two robbers who were robbing his neighbor’s house. Technically I don’t think you are allowed to shoot in that case, but the grand jury did not indict him. He killed both robbers.

      not too late

      October 12, 2015 at 6:09 pm

      • I have always liked the Texas defense, “He needed killing.”

        Tarl

        October 13, 2015 at 12:57 pm

  2. Lion, i am im in favor of stand your ground laws with a reasonable duty to try retreating. But a law that doesnt require reasonable retreat is going to lead to too many gunfights

    Wencil

    October 11, 2015 at 10:54 am

    • Stand your ground is the absence of duty to retreat. I think you should have stand your ground in your house and that’s it.

      Lloyd Llewellyn

      October 11, 2015 at 3:33 pm

    • Reasonable retreat? Have you ever dealt with African Americans?

      Bored

      October 11, 2015 at 5:00 pm

      • Racial behavioral differences are all overlapping bell curves. You don’t understand the issue if you think that there are any totally separate categories like you’re implying.

        Lloyd Llewellyn

        October 11, 2015 at 7:19 pm

    • It’s nearly always possible to argue after the fact that someone had the ability to retreat.The point of SYG laws is to make that argument irrelevant in court. My state has a SYG law, and I haven’t heard of any increase in gunfights. In fact I can’t recall ever hearing of any gunfights at all other than between criminals (and even those are rare).

      J1

      October 13, 2015 at 4:52 pm

  3. There’s plenty of room for the prosecutor even given that statute. For Jones, it will be imperative to keep women off the jury. In fact, women shoukd be legay barred from serving as jurors in self-defense cases, for the reason that they lack all familiarity with the dynamics of street onfrontations.

    mel belli

    October 11, 2015 at 2:55 pm

    • In FL, before a “stand-your-ground” case case even gets to a jury, the prosecutor and the defense will present arguments to a judge for her to determine whether “stand-your-ground” applies and, if so, the case goes away. If not, then the case proceeds toward trial and “stand-your-ground” cannot be used as a defense.

      LotB: It should be noted that “stand your ground” had nothing to do with the Zimmerman case…

      Right, Zimmerman claimed a straight-forward self defense case. “Stand your ground” and “self defense” are two different defense strategies.

      E. Rekshun

      October 11, 2015 at 3:54 pm

  4. After you shoot one and they beat you up anyway, isn’t that proof they were going to commit aggravated assault?

    cesqy

    October 11, 2015 at 3:18 pm

    • No. If I am out with my friends and some scum harasses us and we tell him to push off. Then he shoots one of us, and then the the others start wailing on him. Hell no, it does not prove we were going to whomp him anyway.

      not too late

      October 12, 2015 at 6:13 pm

  5. So perhaps Steven Jones didn’t have to retreat if he reasonably believed that the frat brothers were going to beat him up, he could stand his ground and open fire.

    It makes no difference if the frat boys threatened to kill him first; the boys have higher social status than Jones and they’ll make sure he’s unfairly punished for stepping out of the pecking order.

    The Undiscovered Jew

    October 11, 2015 at 4:08 pm

  6. You’re better off not getting in confrontations if you carry a weapon.

    If you do, shoot them and run, or shoot them and hide the body.

    I am 100% pro-gun, as my father had mulitple situtations in which carrying a pistol might have saved his life:
    -motorcycling in rural vermont, girl comes running out of woods screaming for help, father pulls over to give her a ride, men come out of woods “chasing her” and he pulls his pistol, he offers her a ride, she says no to ride…they were clearly brigands.

    Another example; -father doing business in NYC, leaves work late at night to walk to hotel, gets chased down alley by two hispanic men trying to rob him, father pulls pistol and they run.

    Another; father walking dog at night in park, black guy with pitbull says he will sick his dog onto my dad’s dog and kill it. Father pulls pistol and guy leaves

    Another; arsonist is setting homes on fire in my neighborhood ( I was young), mom and pop hear someone outside our house, they both go out with guns, and guy flees, they find lighter fluid and lighter behind my house…arson stops in neighborhood.

    This is all in the northeast, which is a liberal “safe” place to live. Fuck anti-gunners, they are doomed and trust their fate to luck.

    jjbees

    October 11, 2015 at 4:08 pm

    • Anything will seem like a good idea if you only look at the pro arguments. An intelligent, rational would look at the benefits and costs of gun ownership and then make some attempts to balance the two and come to a reasoned conclusion. They would also make a distinction between the benefits of an individual carrying a gun and the benefits of widespread gun ownership.

      Lloyd Llewellyn

      October 11, 2015 at 7:21 pm

      • Funny how we only get calls for a balanced, pro-versus-con, cost-benefit analysis of things the Right favors.

        When it is something the Left wants – more immigration, abortion, drug legalization, deinstitutionalization of criminals, increased diversity in schools and suburban housing, you name it – all we ever hear are the pro arguments.

        Tarl

        October 12, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    • “-motorcycling in rural vermont, girl comes running out of woods screaming for help, father pulls over to give her a ride, men come out of woods “chasing her” and he pulls his pistol, he offers her a ride, she says no to ride…they were clearly brigands.”

      Why did she refuse the ride? Was she really in danger or was she bait for a trap?

      Robert the Wise

      October 12, 2015 at 2:50 am

      • bait for a trap.

        jjbees

        October 12, 2015 at 9:50 am

  7. Lion give me some more law advice. If I started law school next year I’d be starting at 27 — 5 years after those who go right after undergrad would start. So I’d be graduating at 30. Given that I’d only go if I could get into a top 14 (specifically I’m shooting for Penn, because I live in the area) would graduating at 30 put me at a disadvantage for getting into an elite career track? I know the average age of a law student is around the 30s, but whats the *real talk* on this?

    chairman

    October 11, 2015 at 8:30 pm

    • I think you’ll be OK, but if you can get into a better school then Penn, like Harvard Yale or Stanford, you’d be stupid to go to Penn.

      Hoorah hoorah hoorah hoorah for the red and the blue.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      October 12, 2015 at 2:25 am

  8. I posted this comment under the previous post about the NAU shooter:

    Arizona does not require that citizens runaway from drunken bullies, or thugs.

    “If somebody is threatening you with imminent or deadly force, and you have the ability to retreat, you don’t have to,” Bloom said, defining the law. “You can stand your ground and defend yourself.”

    “Arizona’s law also states you can defend yourself with deadly force in any place you have the right to be as long as you are not breaking the law, Bloom said. ”

    Understanding Arizona’s “stand your ground” laws
    By Justin Schecker. CREATED Jul 24, 2013

    TUCSON (KGUN9-TV) – “Stand your ground” is a self-defense term that has made national headlines throughout and following the verdict in the George Zimmerman murder trial.

    Arizona is one of more than 20 states with a version of this self-defense law.

    “Arizona is a very self-defense friendly state,” Tucson criminal defense attorney Michael Bloom said. “No question about it.”

    Gov. Jan Brewer said she stands by Arizona’s law, but Sen. John McCain said it is something states should review.

    “If somebody is threatening you with imminent or deadly force, and you have the ability to retreat, you don’t have to,” Bloom said, defining the law. “You can stand your ground and defend yourself.”
    Lawmakers have expanded Arizonans right to self-defense in the last decade, but the idea of “stand your ground” dates back to when Arizona was still a territory in 1899, Bloom said.

    http://www.scrippsmedia.com/kgun9/news/good-morning-tucson/Understanding-Arizonas-stand-your-ground-laws-216756971.html

    States That Have Stand Your Ground Laws

    http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/states-that-have-stand-your-ground-laws.html

    Nedd Ludd

    October 12, 2015 at 10:15 am

  9. “Racial behavioral differences are all overlapping bell curves. You don’t understand the issue if you think that there are any totally separate categories like you’re implying.”

    As overlapping as Chicongo.

    Bored

    October 12, 2015 at 6:50 pm

    • Well argued, sir.

      Lloyd Llewellyn

      October 13, 2015 at 7:31 pm


Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: