Lion of the Blogosphere

JerseyGuy’s update on the declining U.S. computer software industry

In September, 2010 JerseyGuy wrote:

I have seen this transition with my father’s computer systems programming and software development company here in Northern NJ. The company consists of around 100 employees located in Northern NJ and Southeastern Pennsylvania. I’m only 26 years old but I remember as recently as 1998 that the company was virtually 100% native born American. However, in the early to mid 2000s, this has completely changed. Now my dad says that at least 60% of the company is foreign born, mostly Indian, as well as a few East Asians and Eastern Europeans. He did confirm to me that the wages for the programmers and systems analysts have pretty much stagnated for the last decade, even as the company has grown. In addition, the American workforce has stagnated as programmers are being used from India, China and Eastern Europe. These people all work remotely from their home countries. The quality of the foreign born workforce? He says that they are pretty much average. Certainly smart. Certainly competent. But by no means MIT or Carnegie Mellon level computer scientists. They are pretty much the quality that you would get from an above average U.S. state school.

Again, my father has worked at this company for about 30 years. The first 20 had virtually a 100% American workforce. Now in the last 10, it has gone to 60% foreign born. My dad isn’t concerned about his job but he is concerned about the next generation of American programmers. If all of the labor force can be imported at lower wages, or done by a foreign work force working remotely in other countries, where does this all end?

We were told that we could offshore our manufacturing and still rely on “higher valued added” services.
Now what do we do?

Today he writes:

So I can’t believe that this is from over five years ago but wanted to give you an update on what is happening in the computer programming industry according to my 64 year old father and what is happening in the public accounting field according to my first-hand experience.

First, my father. He’s still with the same company in Northern NJ. Still about 100 employees and the Company is doing well. However, about 60% of the Company is now in Chennai, India. Yes, the higher level work is still done in the United States. But, according to him, more and more of the work has been shifted to India. We spoke about this in reference to the latest rain storm to hit Chennai that virtually shut down the city for a few weeks. He was saying that the employees in India were doing basic programming and that it would be difficult to quickly shift the work to the United States. I asked him about much they pay in the US for this type of work. He said about $30 – $40 / hour, which isn’t too bad at all. Then, I asked him much they pay those employees in India. $8 – $10 / hour!!! About one quarter of our wages!

Ok, so now onto my profession of public accounting. They recently published the billing rates for our India office, in which we are now being advised to use as much as possible. Essentially, their billing rates are 25% of our billing rates in the US. 25%! It’s so outrageous. To put this into perspective, the billing rates for Senior Managers in India (which make on average approximately $140K in the US) are actually 20% less than the billing rates for our administrators and typists in the US! That means that Senior Managers in India are paid about 20% less than employees who have either a high school diploma or at most, an associates degree.

I could go on with another story about a 60 year old programmer I know who was just laid off from Verizon Wireless in NJ. He actually said he was planning to retire this year and had accumulated enough wealth to do so. He didn’t take is too harshly but he did mention that other programmers in their early 50s were also laid off. He indicated that they are transferring a third of the workforce to India and are building a facility in Irving, Texas in which H1B workers are being brought in to replace American jobs.
Essentially, the moral of the story is that these were supposed to be the jobs of the future. It was ok that manufacturing was being shipped overseas as long as we kept our “value-added” jobs in programmer and public accounting. Now, these jobs are being shipped overseas at a quarter of the labor cost!

No matter how many regulations that we cut or stream-line, there is simply no way that Americans or others in the West can compete with 3rd world labor on a large scale. To finish, a lot of people on the Right are wondering when people are going to “wake up”. I don’t think it will be crime or public looting in some post-industrial town. I think it will occur when outsourcing (and H1B importation) reaches criticality and enough middle and upper middle class jobs are lost.

My observation is that computer programming and accounting (to a slightly lesser degree) are jobs that don’t require good command of the English language or understanding of American culture, which makes them easy to outsource to India, or insource to Indian immigrants.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

December 21, 2015 at 7:16 pm

108 Responses

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  1. I don’t think it will be crime or public looting in some post-industrial town. I think it will occur when outsourcing (and H1B importation) reaches criticality and enough middle and upper middle class jobs are lost.

    And the most lucrative field for young white women; medicine. Does anyone have statistics on how much the wages of white, female medical professionals have been depressed by immigration, which is primarily Asian?

    The Undiscovered Jew

    December 21, 2015 at 7:24 pm

    • At least in my area, the nurses are still staffed by mostly smart-prole white women. I went to high school with a few of them. All of the nurses I know are solidly middle class.

      Nursing (for smart prole white women) and electricians and plumbers (for smart prole white men) are some of the few remaining blue-collar type and middle class wage professions that have not felt the wrath of globalization.

      JerseyGuy

      December 21, 2015 at 7:35 pm

    • It won’t last because we keep importing Asians who push white women out of a limited number of medical schools while white women can’t work in Asia as medical professionals to compensate for the increased competition here.

      The Undiscovered Jew

      December 21, 2015 at 7:43 pm

  2. Agreed 100% My wife is a lawyer (not Big-Law but still a reputable firm in NJ) and doesn’t face any competition from India. As hard as it is for lawyers to get a job, it’s still a good career if you can find a niche. The Law is a protected industry, and I don’t say that as a criticism. At least our politicians are protecting something!

    And people wonder why Trump is so popular….

    JerseyGuy

    December 21, 2015 at 7:29 pm

    • I thought they would export all the grunt level researching of case law to India?

      chris

      December 22, 2015 at 1:23 am

  3. I work for a software company that has gone from startup to 1900 employees.

    In general, the software firms I’ve worked for use offshore resources (usually Bangalore) only for low-level QA, debugging, or production support type of coding (rather than “greenfield” development, requirements management or architecture/design). Generally it’s regarded as a 3-to-1 proposition – one QA person in the USA equals the cost of 3 in Bangalore.

    A few years ago I did some work for the software side of ADP and they had actually formed their own brick and mortar center in Bangalore in an attempt to save $$ on 75% of their positions. They found that at the end of the year they only really saved about 10% on overhead, but it simply wasn’t worth the strain placed on their project management and client-facing groups in the USA. I know they still use offshore help now but on a more limited basis.

    Camlost

    December 21, 2015 at 7:40 pm

  4. I should add that there’s a very slight realization going in the executive levels that having Indians who will work for a quarter of American wages is more expensive in the medium term because what they often produce is crap systems that have to be redesigned, delayed, replaced, or rejected early in the project. The end result is getting the system they wanted originally costs more when Indians do the work four times than having a white American do it right the first time (or a prole Slav do it right in 1.5 to 2 attempts).

    I know for a fact Deutsche Bank’s experience with outsourcing their American tech teams to India was such a disaster that they are now frantically insourcing the work back to the US.

    The Undiscovered Jew

    December 21, 2015 at 7:40 pm

    • “I know for a fact Deutsche Bank’s experience with outsourcing their American tech teams to India was such a disaster that they are now frantically insourcing the work back to the US.”

      I also know this for a fact and witnessed it first hand as Deutsche is one of our largest syndicate partners. The Indian servicing team was a disaster, and Deutsche eventually moved back servicing to Jersey City.

      How do you know this? Do you work in CRE?

      DdR

      December 22, 2015 at 10:37 am

      • I’m not surprised. I don’t know anything about IT, but I know a bit about India. It’s hopelessly corrupt and inefficient, and the top tier talent is not all its cracked up to be. Thomas Friedman is a total bullshit artist.

        gothamette

        December 22, 2015 at 11:11 am

      • The Indian servicing team was a disaster, and Deutsche eventually moved back servicing to Jersey City.

        Offshoring modest QA work and maintenance support usually won’t result in desperate, last minute, inshoring. But Deutsche made the mistake of giving them critical systems.

        How do you know this?

        I was told by a consultant friend of mine who I went to college with and who recently met me for lunch.

        It’s hopelessly corrupt and inefficient, and the top tier talent is not all its cracked up to be.

        There is top talent in India, but they’re needles in a haystack of mediocrity or incompetence. Their workforce quality is inconsistent and more likely to surprise on the downside than up.

        There are also security problems with Indians stealing source code to resell on the black market, probably to China.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        December 22, 2015 at 5:25 pm

    • ‘I should add that there’s a very slight realization going in the executive levels that having Indians who will work for a quarter of American wages is more expensive in the medium term because what they often produce is crap systems that have to be redesigned, delayed, replaced, or rejected early in the project. ‘

      We’ve realized it pretty much right away. But it was a corporate policy, nobody could’ve done anything about it.

      Yakov

      December 23, 2015 at 12:20 am

  5. And I’ve represented at least 5 different software companies at college hiring and career events. There’s few white American computer science students in general and those of any quality are quickly snatched up quickly by the biggest and most prestigious employers like Google, Nvidia, Apple, etc.

    The bulk of the students you can talk to are the endless parade of work visa Master’s students from India, Pakistan and China (who need you to pay for the OPT-visa and H-1 sponsorship to be hireable) A lot of them have 3-5 years of alleged prior work in India on their resume, and they just lie about what they did there, they have several fudged up, “hot-swappable” resumes where they can represent themselves as a QA person or developer or Business Analyst equally well. I’ve seen the H-1 visa jobseeker send several radically different resumes for various jobs at the same company.

    In fact, during the boom days of IT around 2000 you had a lot of tech companies so desperate for talent that they’d hire off a single phone interview. These shady Indian H-1B firms would have one guy interview for the job by phone, but when their start date came along they’d actually send out someone else who they could pay a cheaper rate (thus keeping more margin for themselves).

    Camlost

    December 21, 2015 at 7:48 pm

    • We used to prep entry level guys and sell them fake experience. We would be their contact at a former ’employer’ and confirm to their agent or HR that they had actually worked for us and were competent. You could get $5 an hour for the duration of the contract or a flat fee. That was neat.

      Yakov

      December 21, 2015 at 9:04 pm

  6. If people are working from their home countries how will any changes or elimination of H1-b visas matter?

    Dave

    December 21, 2015 at 8:06 pm

    • No

      Camlost

      December 21, 2015 at 9:54 pm

    • It won’t in that case. I’ve been working for the same US software corporation for almost 20 years. I’ve seen it go from less than 400 employees when I came in via a merger to a 7000 employee 2 billion dollar company. I can’t say that the american/foreign employee ratio has changed that much but the majority of engineers have shifted from US based to foreign based. The reason is due to the specific needs we have and the difficulty in finding engineers with the needed skill set. A few years ago, in order to transfer into a different position, I had to help in finding/interviewing someone to fill my old position. It took almost a year and the person we finally hired ended up working from his home in Poland. About 35% of my 7000 colleagues work from home as do I. Cost is a factor, but definitely not the driving factor. If someone doesn’t have the needed skills, there is no point in hiring regardless of price. And since the work can be done from home, we can hire worldwide without worrying about visa issues (although there are other issues which make some countries more difficult than others and some countries off limits in any case).

      Polentone

      December 21, 2015 at 10:59 pm

      • Polentone,

        Wow…that is one of the stupider things I have ever heard.

        Are you telling me that your company is allowing valuable code to be beamed and worked on to locations outside of the country? Or worse, foreigners VPNing into your network? How do you deal with data theft or corporate espionage? Or, worse, spying by a government agency?

        You really have no way of authenticating any foreign party that you hire to do work/

        map

        December 22, 2015 at 3:45 am

      • When I had a job, the team in India had VPN access (although it was a pain to get the IT people to grant it but there was no way the could do their jobs without it).

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        December 22, 2015 at 8:58 am

  7. Stephen K. Bannon at Breitbart Radio (Sirius XM) is very interested in the topics of outsourcing and H1B visas. He discusses these issues frequently with a lot of passion and insight. As far as elected officials go, Senator Jeff Sessions (R-Alabama) is probably the best around.

    Lewis Medlock

    December 21, 2015 at 8:16 pm

  8. You are confusing an accountant with a bookkeeper. Accountant’s job is to bend the number based on the limits of what is acceptable in their culture. You cannot outsource that, at least not from the US to India.

    MyTwoCents

    December 21, 2015 at 8:37 pm

    • You’d be surprised how many tax returns are prepared offshore now. And a lot of auditing procedures are being performed in India now too.

      JerseyGuy

      December 21, 2015 at 10:14 pm

  9. A lot of payroll/expense companies are run by Indians.

    Anecdotally, I had a conversation with a woman (white, uber-WASP) whose job was to recruit for Big Pharma. She recruits almost entirely Indians to do the grunt work, and (this astonished me) the project managers are West African men, Nigerians, Ghanaians. Their language skills are good, and they are commanding figures. Of course, they are just flunkies, but for flunkies, they are boss-men.

    gothamette

    December 21, 2015 at 8:53 pm

    • What is grunt work at Big Pharma?

      map

      December 22, 2015 at 3:47 am

      • I really don’t know what their job description was. I was having a pleasant chat with someone on a hike and I didn’t query her about that. “Grunt work” is my dummy understanding of what she was saying. What I do remember not paraphrasing is that she hires a lot of Indians and West Africans on H1B visas. Jobs that Americans can & should do.

        gothamette

        December 22, 2015 at 11:14 am

  10. If companies can get the same or acceptable quality of work from China or India for 25%, then they will. If it’s not worth it for them, then they won’t. Businesses don’t exist to create jobs for Americans; they exist to make money. Tough titties. 🙂

    I don’t think there’s very much that can be done to stop this in the long term if that’s what the market dictates. The profit motive is stronger than the political will of the American people, or any people really.

    shiva1008

    December 21, 2015 at 8:58 pm

    • ” Businesses don’t exist to create jobs for Americans; they exist to make money.”

      But out government exists to benefit Americans, so the government shouldn’t allow it.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      December 21, 2015 at 10:58 pm

      • Does it? As I recall, Jimmy Madison said something about how government’s “first object” is protecting “different and unequal faculties in acquiring property.”

        Vince

        December 21, 2015 at 11:41 pm

      • You are correct. Businesses are allowed to exist by the government. Just like you are allowed to exist by the government. I am not sure about “benefit Americans part”. Probably not. It is more likely that you exist to benefit the government. This government was here BEFORE you were born.

        MyTwoCents

        December 22, 2015 at 4:44 am

    • Businesses benefit from the privilege of limited liability which offers an enormous special protection to their owners. Businesses could hardly function without this — the government has every right to demand that in exchange businesses operate in a way that benefit their citizens.

      chairman

      December 21, 2015 at 11:24 pm

    • And does the artificial construction of the marketplace exist to benefit companies, or those living within the society?

      chris

      December 22, 2015 at 1:35 am

    • Shiva,

      Markets decide…markets are heavily regulated, everywhere, around the world. The market decides nothing.

      What your missing is that the power to offshore outsource was one granted to companies by the government. It was sold to the general public on Ricardian grounds…so-called “high-value” businesses being maintained in exchange for the “low-level” stuff going overseas.

      It’s clear that this was a bait and switch. It’s also clear that it needs to be reversed.

      map

      December 22, 2015 at 3:52 am

    • “Businesses don’t exist to create jobs for Americans; they exist to make money. Tough titties.”

      Thus speaks the globalist cuck. Ok, I guess that settles that and there’s no reason to discuss anything.

      Of course, for most of America’s history businesses were protected by tariffs precisely in order to keep jobs and wealth in America. But now we’re much smarter than that. Only a stupid barbarian is against “free trade.” Only a jingoist flag waving lunatic believes in protecting American interests for the sake of Americans. Only a racist believes that such a thing as an “American” exists.

      peterike

      December 22, 2015 at 9:07 am

  11. Not an outsourcing issue per se, but related to the decline of valued added work in the US – according to a friend who has 30+ years experience in the chemical industry, US firms have largely gutted their R&D programs and most process development in the chemical industry is now coming from Asia (and still some from Europe)….

    bill

    December 21, 2015 at 9:01 pm

  12. I visited Chennai (formerly Madras) last summer on a business trip and found it pretty nice by Indian standards, although the weather was beastly hot and humid, but that’s what you get in the Tamil south. Lots of interesting architecture dating back to the time of the Raj. Food was great, and, even better, I didn’t get sick. Traffic was pretty bad, but nothing compared to Delhi. The stuff I saw was pretty high-tech, although everyplace had backup generators because the power went out so often.

    Speaking of outsourcing, law firms have been sending more and more of their back-office work to India, which has over one million English-speaking lawyers, many of whom work for reasonable rates (by American standards, at least).

    Black Death

    December 21, 2015 at 9:01 pm

  13. Got to go prole. Meat and potatoes. My nephew from Israel with a PhD in computer science worked for a year at Google. His salary? $120,000. Pretty shabby. He is a professor at an Israeli University now and is happy doing his own thing. I think I will be neting more then him pretty soon. Go prole!

    I mean, seriously, how hard is it for a guy like Lion to be an HVAC service supertech? I think it’s pretty easy. Can be making $120,000 in HVAC, leave the cubicals to Indians.

    Yakov

    December 21, 2015 at 9:13 pm

    • Professor at an Israeli University sounds like a far better job than working in HVAC, if only because you are surrounded by cute Israeli co-eds.

      Peter Akuleyev

      December 22, 2015 at 5:42 am

      • And the coeds served in the army and can kick Arab ass if they have to.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        December 22, 2015 at 9:00 am

      • It’s a better job if you got the brains for it, I haven’t. At any rate, the guy is into his scientific research and not co-eds or teaching. He churns out some serious stuff.

        Yakov

        December 22, 2015 at 9:06 am

      • Yeah, but you could get fired for sexual harrasment. and the cute girls are not in computer science anyway.

        You are missing the point in the math though. 120,000$ in Israel is more than in the US.
        We don’t have to pay for College tuition or debt, or Health care. We just pay very high taxes.
        On those 120,000$ he probably paid U.S. taxes. This means that net in Israel, they are worth almost 2 times that.
        And he probably couldn’t get a job in the US as a prole.

        Yoav

        December 22, 2015 at 9:51 am

      • He lived in the US for that year. Everything is US – income and taxes. Apples to apples.

        Yakov

        December 22, 2015 at 10:42 am

      • I don’t know if the Israelis are as psycho about sexual harassment as we are. They still need manly men, after all.

        SFG

        December 22, 2015 at 10:00 pm

      • Former president is doing 7 years in the slammer for rape, while Clinton is lecturing the world about American values. But it depends on how you slice it: what’s more impressive – the president raping women and avoiding accountability or going to prison for it? I think that there are so many opportunities without harassment, that harassment needs to be punished severely. It’s not like these guys are monks or something.

        Yakov

        December 22, 2015 at 11:45 pm

  14. As a taxpayer (and insurance premium payer), I’d be most interested in outsourcing teachers, doctors and other public servants. But many of these are professional rent-seekers… They are the customers of our elected officials more than simple citizen taxpayers.

    Over the past generation of post-industrial revolution, almost every other industry has been touched by technological inefficiencies and global outsourcing. Except teachers, doctors and local public services. They’ve got us locked in with their professional certification racket and an every higher ratcheting standard requirement of increasing credentials is a great rent-seeking make work program for the already bloated education credential industrial complex. Look at doctors for example. Sure it’s important that they are well trained. But ask any one of them how much of their actual decade plus of training is essential for their day-to-day responsibilities. Break it down into much smaller specialized tasks that can be learned quickly and “just-in-time” before assignments and as they advance in to new areas. Don’t waste so many extraordinary resources on teaching them everything before they even start for tasks that they’ll never do. If they don’t practice that area regularly, they get rusty and lose that competence anyways.

    Rationalize education and the professions so we don’t have to burden every subsequent generation with onerous lifelong debts for a such a brief period of education.

    Thin-Skinned Masta-Beta

    December 21, 2015 at 9:51 pm

    • I certainly would not want doctors trained in India, Africa, China or Russia treating me or anyone in my family. For one thing there is so much corruption in these places that degrees can be bought.

      Rosenmops

      December 22, 2015 at 2:24 am

      • Your feelings are understandable, American Medical education is better, but my doctors and dentist are all Russian and Buchanan Jews. They are actually very good and I enjoy a good conversation with then. My ophthalmologist is an extremely smart Bucharan Jew. I take the last appointment and he stays back to talk. We have tons of fun and he is the only one who can get my prescription right. It’s really a fun experience. Nothing like your own ethnic group. Here you go for a referral and have a good laugh or an interesting insight into things. Plus you meet other Russians, Jews, Uzbeks and Tajiks just like in the Soviet Union – one big happy family. I think you wouldn’t feel comfortable in such an environment, though.

        Yakov

        December 22, 2015 at 10:07 pm

    • Doctors: automate diagnosis. Error rates in diagnosis would plummet. Costs would go down too.

      Automate surgery. Robots will make fewer mistakes. Not going to happen right away. But 10-20 years from now I expect robotic surgery to be faster and with much lower error rates.

      Randall Parker

      December 25, 2015 at 2:10 pm

  15. I’m a white high iq recent grad American working in Nyc at a major credit card company. I work as a programmer on big data/analytics. The company is corrupt all the way to the top. Indians only hire Indians, despite their gross incompetence. Most have siblings and family members in high positions within the tech division. There is illegal under the table money going from Indian contracting companies to the tech higher ups. The level of incompetence is astonishing among the hires they make. I architect the whole project and the Indian code monkeys implement everything. They work long hours for low pay, dropping American wages further. 95% of the tech side is Indian, all often from the same caste. I was not racist, but I am now. This is happening all across America, and I feel powerless to expose the blatant racism and nepotism that is spreading through this traditionally American company. If I could I would expose them all to the New York Times, but the risk of my own career would be too high. They bring third world shit corruption to a great first world country. Trump 2016.

    WhiteProgrammer

    December 21, 2015 at 9:52 pm

    • You have to be oblivious to think whites or blacks are not involved in corruption. We had the accounting scandals that toppled quite a few companies. Doubt many Asians were behind fall of enron, worldcom, global crossing, qwest.

      Wt

      December 22, 2015 at 12:54 am

      • “You have to be oblivious to think whites or blacks are not involved in corruption.”

        Do we need to import more corruption than we already have?

        SQ

        December 22, 2015 at 12:30 pm

    • Nepotism is everywhere because it serves its purpose. Why would anyone prefer to hire someone over his/her relative? Power is the same as money. You would not give your money to the best person over your son, would you? You are the recent grad, so are a bit confused because of all brainwashing you got at school. The New York Times would not care about your story. How do you think they do their hiring?

      MyTwoCents

      December 22, 2015 at 5:00 am

      • “Why would anyone prefer to hire someone over his/her relative?”

        Northern Europeans and their descendants do not think that way. When they lived in their own societies, this was a strength. Strangers can move mountains when they trust each other, work together, and judge each other objectively. Ethnic pluralism has made this a weakness, because others do not play by the same rules.

        SQ

        December 22, 2015 at 12:39 pm

      • SQ wrote
        “Northern Europeans and their descendants do not think that way. When they lived in their own societies, this was a strength. Strangers can move mountains when they trust each other, work together, and judge each other objectively. Ethnic pluralism has made this a weakness, because others do not play by the same rules.”

        You are absolutely right, SQ. Truer words were never spoken. People from high corruption, low-trust cultures don’t understand this at all. I worked with a lady from the old Yugoslavia, we both taught at a small university. . She had been in Canada for years and I assume she felt the same way as most of did about academic cheating–you don’t do it because it is morally wrong and shameful. She would take part in conversations where we bemoaned the rampant attempts to cheat by Chinese students.

        Then one day when I was alone with her she remarked that Americsn’s don’t cheat because they are selfish and competitive, while people from many other countries wanted to help their fellow students by cheating. I was stunned to hear her say this. This must be a view that she brought from her highly corrupt homeland.

        The Corruption perception I dex makes interesting reading. They rank countries by corruption.

        Rosenmops

        December 22, 2015 at 8:15 pm

    • Obama seems to want to turn the US into a corrupt 3rd world country. Corruption will destroy a country.

      They rate countries by corruption at Trancparency.or ..the Corruption Perception Index. I’ve always said that when immigrants come from corrupt countries they bring the corruption with them, especially when they come in great numbers.

      Rosenmops

      December 22, 2015 at 8:02 pm

  16. “My observation is that computer programming and accounting (to a slightly lesser degree) are jobs that don’t require good command of the English language or understanding of American culture, which makes them easy to outsource to India, or insource to Indian immigrants.”

    America de-industrialized. Get new skills they said. Got new skills. Got out/insourced even so.
    Dems/Repubs => good for votes/good for owners.

    ModernReader

    December 21, 2015 at 10:29 pm

  17. RE: Indians in NJ (dots, not feathers)

    That part of JC, Journal Square. It is like little Bombay. A mess. Extra curry too.

    Mobutu

    December 21, 2015 at 10:30 pm

  18. What is it with Ron Paul’s obsession with the Fed? I basically agreed with his anti war stuff even if I wasn’t nearly as hardcore as him, but even if you disagree with him you can still understand why somebody would be against war/empire.

    But the Fed? Who cares? What problems would be solved by getting rid of the Fed?

    By the way, somebody on another thread was asking why nobody has copied Trump on immigration. It has become clear that Cruz is very much copying Trump on immigration and even on the anti Islam stuff. In the last few weeks Cruz has been much more of an immigration restrictionist than Trump has. Also Rand Paul has suddenly also returned to his anti immigrant roots.

    Otis the Sweaty

    December 21, 2015 at 10:46 pm

    • “What is it with Ron Paul’s obsession with the Fed?”

      It’s party of the Jewish conspiracy meme of the anti-Semitic alt-right.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      December 21, 2015 at 11:02 pm

      • But why obsess about the Fed? There are better ways to bash Jews than to talk about monetary policy.

        Otis the Sweaty

        December 21, 2015 at 11:05 pm

      • Part of the conspiracy theory; they believe that if they can only unmask the Fed they would expose the Global Jooish Conspiracy.

        Of course none of the Joo conspiracy mongers have ever actually worked in banking. Ron Paul is in ophthalmologist, He knows nothing about how banking works.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        December 21, 2015 at 11:06 pm

      • “Ron Paul is in ophthalmologist

        I thought I heard he was an ob-gyn.

        Maryk

        December 21, 2015 at 11:54 pm

      • oops, confusing Pauls

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        December 22, 2015 at 12:43 am

      • Distaste for Jewish bankers is a legacy. Jewish bankers used banking to interfere in politics, wars, etc. Jews aside, people always hate bankers, credit card companies, insurance companies, etc. Even you hate hedge fund managers. People just hate those industries dealing with money. Always have and always will no matter whose doing it. Same with lawyers and politicians.

        Libertarians hate the fed because they believe in free markets. The fed is anything but a free market. It’s money manipulation. You claim to have been a libertarian but you obviously weren’t. Otherwise you’d understand how much market manipulation infuriates libertarians. I’m not an expert on the specific pros and cons of the fed. I’ve never really delved into it. But market manipulation is rarely a good thing. And it certainly didn’t stop the Great Depression or the housing crisis. If anything, they made it worse.

        destructure

        December 22, 2015 at 1:42 am

      • Are you for real? Mises and Rothbard, of the Austrian economic tradition of which Ron Paul is an adherent, were both Jewish.

        jr

        December 22, 2015 at 2:52 am

      • Self-hating Jews?

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        December 22, 2015 at 8:57 am

      • I find it amusing that Wikipedia article on Antisemitism is much longer and has more references than the article on Jews.

        MyTwoCents

        December 22, 2015 at 11:43 pm

      • The Jews: an unimportant people who are massively hated.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        December 23, 2015 at 12:37 am

    • Austrians are obsessed with the Fed because they view fiat money as the source of all evil.

      chairman

      December 21, 2015 at 11:25 pm

      • So their problem is not with the Fed, per se, but rather that there is any type of central banking?

        Again, what problems would be solved by eliminating central banking/the Fed?

        If fiat currency is so terrible, why does every country use it?

        Otis the Sweaty

        December 22, 2015 at 1:44 am

      • Gold-backed currency led to much worse business cycles before fiat currency. And there isn’t enough gold in the world to function as a currency even if we wanted it to.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        December 22, 2015 at 8:56 am

      • “And there isn’t enough gold in the world to function as a currency even if we wanted it to.”

        Well, you could argue that fiat money is what leads to inflation, and if you had kept the gold standard all along, prices/wages would be at a much lower level. Hence, there would be enough gold to go around. Of course that horse has long left the barn.

        This graph puts things into quite interesting perspective. Inflation essentially didn’t exist until we left the gold standard.

        peterike

        December 22, 2015 at 9:12 am

      • Why is a little bit of inflation so bad? A small amount of inflation, according to all conventional economists, helps the economy and avoids business cycles that caused severe recessions and runs on banks.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        December 22, 2015 at 9:15 am

      • Mises was not critical of Jews. Rothbard, on the other hand, did not have the highest opinion of his tribe. In fact, I read a piece online in the Rothbard-Rockwell Report (written by Rothbard) supporting David Duke’s candidacy!.

        Lewis Medlock

        December 22, 2015 at 1:31 pm

    • Austrians also believe that EVERY economic ill is caused by the Fed setting interest rates too low.

      chairman

      December 21, 2015 at 11:26 pm

    • Ron was an OB/GYN. Rand is an Opthamologist.

      I really don’t see a Jewish angle in their criticism of central banking. The two “Austrian” patron saints are Mises and Rothbard. The basic argument seems more anti-inflationist than anything. Gold and other hard money prevents government excess and credit boom/busts.

      onetwothree

      December 22, 2015 at 12:16 am

      • Self-hating Jews?

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        December 22, 2015 at 12:44 am

      • I agree most of Paul’s criticisms of the Fed are nonsense, but I think he sincerely opposes central banking on purely economic grounds, not antisemitic ones.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        December 22, 2015 at 5:27 pm

      • Agree with Undiscovered Jew–Ron is antisemitic and doesn’t like the Fed, but A–>B and A–>C doesn’t mean B–>C.

        SFG

        December 22, 2015 at 10:11 pm

      • Fed conspiracy theories are all over Stormfront, it’s part of the Jewish Global Banking Conspiracy.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        December 22, 2015 at 10:59 pm

      • That’s true, but Stormfront blames *everything* on the Jews. I think it was James Bowery who thought the increased incidence of autism in cities was due to Jewish ‘chemical castration’ or something.

        SFG

        December 23, 2015 at 7:01 am

    • Some people just can’t get past fractional reserve banking and paper currency. Fiat money! It’s not real!1!

      Mrs Stitch

      December 22, 2015 at 5:57 pm

    • Ron Paul is antisemitic. (His son isn’t.) The alt-right is very antisemitic. Ron Paul and the alt-right don’t like the Fed. I agree with all these things.

      Criticism of the Fed is not antisemitic. I’m no expert on libertarianism, but it seems to me the reason’s pretty obvious–if you’re a libertarian, you don’t like government. The Fed is responsible for government control of the monetary supply. Gold is not controlled by the government. Think about it.

      As for Mises and Rothbard–who knows? Plenty of Jews have become libertarians (Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman)… given the long history of antisemitic government actions ranging from taxes to the Holocaust, you can see why some Jews might decide…let’s minimize the size of the government! A small government is going to have a hard time building gas chambers, after all.

      Also Jews with right-wing leanings can’t go ‘blood and soil’ unless they’re in Israel–those groups are usually antisemitic. So there’s libertarianism and neoconservatism.

      SFG

      December 22, 2015 at 10:08 pm

    • I think the “anti-Fed and therefore anti-Jewish” view is rather too automatic and wrong in most cases. My introduction to anti-Fed and pro-Gold thinking came from reading Jewish Objectivists. No, they were not self-hating. They wanted markets to replace government for more decision-making. I’m sympathetic to their goal (less government) while being skeptical that gold would work as well as they imagine.

      I also think self-hating is a rather over-used explanation for people’s views on a wide range of topics. People who hold foolish views contrary to their own interests describe a wide range of people across the political spectrum. Few seem to hate themselves. Foolish views are very common and promoted for a number of reasons other than self hatred.

      Copying Trump on immigration: Trump’s competitors want (really need) money from the donor class. The donor class is very pro-immigration, both skilled and unskilled. You have to be a billionaire to speak your mind on the national level and run for office.

      Randall Parker

      December 25, 2015 at 2:27 pm

  19. I own a business, and my office manager’s daughter is married to a young man from India. She says the infrastructure in India is so primitive that it’s common to have electricity for your home or office only 12 out of 24 hours.

    So if you’re in the dark half the time, how are you supposed to communicate with the outside world, unless you’ve got standby generators?

    Aspects of doing business in these places that are often overlooked are infrastructure deficits, local customs that get in the way of high productivity levels, and corruption, i.e. paying out bribes to local officials. Not to mention employee theft in whatever form that might take.

    So a lot of the “savings” get lost, and in the end it’s not worth it. Nor is importing the work force, because in large enough numbers they will bring with them the habits and attitudes that make their own countries a toilet.

    Sgt. Joe Friday

    December 21, 2015 at 10:58 pm

    • “So if you’re in the dark half the time, how are you supposed to communicate with the outside world,”

      When I had a job, my Indian team was never offline. So obviously there is 24/7 electricity in the places where the Indian programmers work.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      December 21, 2015 at 11:04 pm

  20. Many of my IT bosses and co-workers, all brilliant guys, got layed off in their sixties. These are exceptionally bright guys with serious IQs, asi es la vida. To late for them to go prole, lol. They got tons of money anyway. I’d met one of them before he got layed off. I was in my truck, so I go:
    ‘How is IT business nowdays? ‘
    ‘ I wouldn’t recommend it to my worst enemy’, he goes.

    This guy wrote some serious code. I took over from him a margin requirements system that he had written from scratch. An excellent tech and an excellent manager with a degree in math is layed off. He felt bad about it, I could see. Here we are stopping for a bagel and a coffee and where is he and where am I? Go prole!

    Yakov

    December 21, 2015 at 11:31 pm

    • Corporate IT is prole.

      JS

      December 22, 2015 at 1:42 pm

  21. I have worked for 35 years as a programmer in Silicon valley. Even 35 years ago there were many Chinese programmers and engineers in Silicon Valley. Caucasian software engineers were a minority at many companies. Starting in the late 80s there was a lot of off shoring. Companies set up R&D in India and later in China. In the 1980-90s the engineers you could hire in India were really top notch. Since late 90s the quality has gone down to just average and turn over is high. There are so many companies in India, programmers and engineers can easily job hope.

    I suspect that lots of the smartest college graduate go into software engineering in India because it is viewed as the way to get wealthy, perhaps even get to the USA or Europe. In the USA the smartest college graduates go to Wall Street. Yes those Indian programmers are making a fraction of what programmers do in USA, but they are making far more than typical Indians and can live very well on those salaries in India.

    Managing remote software development is difficult. I’ve seen small startup companies that tried to out source most of their development to contract companies in India, and it was a disaster. Unless you have good managers that are willing to live in India or spend a lot of time there, it can be hard to manage. I have spent a lot of time on the phone talking to Indian and Chinese engineers, but it is hard to figure out what is really going on just with regular phone calls. This makes the productivity of Indian/Chinese engineers effectively lower, but given the low cost it is probably still cheaper. Salaries however are going up a lot faster in India/China than in the USA. Given the lower effective productivity the cost advantage is eroding.

    If you go to top universities in the USA to interview software engineers, there just are not many Caucasian. It is not as easy to get a job today as it was in 1998, but if you are good there are lots of jobs around that pay well.

    mikeca

    December 21, 2015 at 11:38 pm

    • Of course if the choice is between Indians in the U.S. and Indians in India making a fraction of what Indians in the U.S. make, the Indians in India choice makes a lot of economic sense.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      December 22, 2015 at 12:42 am

    • My old company tried to work with Tata programmers for one project. I sat in on a meeting..it was silly, here they are up at 2 am in Mubai or something, asking lame questions and not really getting the context or market for our app. Like describing an elephant to a blind man etc.

      Mrs Stitch

      December 22, 2015 at 6:01 pm

  22. One field not flooded by Indians and Chinese is wildlife ecology. It is a white-topea. My son has degrees in this field and has an excellent job and had several good offers. My other son took computer science and Math. He is currently working in construction. (I’m in Canada )

    Rosenmops

    December 22, 2015 at 2:33 am

    • So how much do wildlife ecologists make?

      Yakov

      December 22, 2015 at 11:56 am

      • I think the salary range for his current job is something like $75,000 – $95,000. CND. Federal government job with an indexed pension. So he is good for life unless Trudeau bankrupts the country. This is comparable to my salary as a lecturer at a small university.

        Rosenmop

        December 22, 2015 at 3:58 pm

      • This is good. How much does the construction son make?

        Yakov

        December 22, 2015 at 4:58 pm

      • Yakov, I’m not sure how much my other son is making. Considerably better than minimum wage. He has a teaching certificate and tough high school for a couple of years but he doesn’t seem to want to go back into teaching. I keep sending him job listing for teachers , most of them in smaller towns in the north, but he ignores them. I’ve suggested he study to be an electrician…he might do this if he gets tired of what he’s doing now. He is bitter about having student loans .

        Rosenmops

        December 22, 2015 at 8:21 pm

      • No sane academic lecturer drifts their children into proledom, by suggesting them to work as an electrician or other trades.

        The current paradigm for young White people in our post scarcity world is this: Self actualize with a part time job in a city that is conducive to such endeavors. No metropolis in Meriprolestan fits this concept, because its towns are those of flyover and the south, poor and prole, or its liberal centers, expensive and unaffordable to the middle class.

        JS

        December 23, 2015 at 10:38 am

      • And it depends on the Canadian city. Montreal/Quebec doesn’t have as many Asians as Ontario or British Columbia. The same goes for Atlantic Canada.

        Winnipeg and Saskatoon are our flyover equivalents. Most Anglo towns in the New World are generally boring and devoid of culture.

        JS

        December 23, 2015 at 10:43 am

  23. ‘To finish, a lot of people on the Right are wondering when people are going to “wake up”.’

    It’s either now or never. Trump is our last chance. If we miss it, it will be too late.

    Yakov

    December 22, 2015 at 7:36 am

  24. Basically, I believe that I’m right. What you do is you decide on how much you need to earn to live your lifestyle and then you look for an occupation that will allow you to do so. Not the other way around. Not like: ‘What’s an American (fill in the blank for occupation) to do, nebach?’, but rather: ‘What do I need to do to earn (fill in the amount)?’. Even with Trump there won’t be any other way. You’ve got to do what you’ve got to do to survive and nobody is gonna do it for you. Don’t you ever believe otherwise.

    Yakov

    December 22, 2015 at 7:46 am

    • Meriprolestan is the consummate flea market. You need a job to suit your buying spree. Don’t believe in the hype of doing what you love in the UPS (United Prole States). Capitalism isn’t about passion, but exploitation, greed, and over-consumption.

      Status in the UPS was and is always about prestige + money, not just prestige. The average person in the UPS doesn’t care if you attended a top notch school, then to become a cool person with a thin wallet. Upper stratum Meriproles are the crassy bottom class of the Continental Western European nations.

      JS

      December 22, 2015 at 1:40 pm

  25. (which make on average approximately $140K in the US) are actually 20% less than the billing rates for our administrators and typists in the US! That means that Senior Managers in India are paid about 20% less than employees who have either a high school diploma or at most, an associates degree.’

    I doubt it. The technical manager that supervised an off-shore team of 12-15 people at my company was being paid a base salary of $90,000, and that was 15 years ago. I think it depends on the application. I don’t believe that you can find an individual capable of managing a portfolio accounting system and pay him less than a typist. This simply cannot be done.

    Yakov

    December 22, 2015 at 9:08 am

    • OT, but the Desert Eagle is a huge ass handgun.

      Mobutu

      December 22, 2015 at 10:57 am

    • Yakov,
      I meant the equivalent billing rates. The $ equivalent of a billing rate for a Senior Manager in India is 20% less than the $ billing rate of an admin in the US. That’s how huge the wage disparity is between the two countries. It’s just insane to think that we can compete with these people on a level playing field.

      JerseyGuy

      December 23, 2015 at 12:50 pm

  26. my extremely nerdy son is adamant on computer science. god help him.

    slithy toves

    December 22, 2015 at 10:01 pm

    • He may get a decent job with google. And if he’s extremely nerdy, he’ll never be good at sales. Make sure he goes to the best school like M.I.T. or Stanford or even computer science at Harvard.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      December 22, 2015 at 10:58 pm

      • If you are good at Computer Science, you will be very comfortable at Google among similar people (which is of course important), but you will be treated as God if you go to healthcare insurance or other similar industries. Their executives believe people that can run SQL queries are Gods. There are quite a few of those industries. And because of the location, you will afford pretty much everything, except may be for 72 virgins. On the other hand, If you go and work at Google, you will be able to afford to buy a trailer, maybe a condo once you marry a similar chick, but then you will have a high risk of having to deal with an autistic child.

        MyTwoCents

        December 23, 2015 at 1:25 pm

    • He may get a job with the military – it’s high tech, good pay and benefits. My old landlady’s son got it. The salary is in six figures.

      Yakov

      December 22, 2015 at 11:33 pm

  27. give you an update on what is happening in the computer programming industry according to my 64 year old father…He’s still with the same company in Northern NJ. Still about 100 employees and the Company is doing well

    Yikes! The father is still working at 64 y/o! Every male in my family retired or will retire as a millionaire or multi-millionaire before age 55. I couldn’t imagine working a corporate 9-to-5 into my ’60s.

    E. Rekshun

    December 23, 2015 at 7:21 am

    • Yup. He’s still going strong. Plus, he has to get up at all hours of the morning to jump on calls with India and Singapore.

      Both of my parents could easily retire right now if they wanted to but they’ll keep working for a few more years. I guess its the American way. At least its productive though.

      JerseyGuy

      December 23, 2015 at 12:47 pm


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