Lion of the Blogosphere

Who ever heard of the “Logan Act”?

Who knew it was illegal for a citizen “without the authority of the United States” to talk to foreign governments? Haven’t Jimmy Carter and a whole bunch of other famous people, especially liberal Democrats, been doing exactly that for decades? (Actually, upon doing research, it turns out that people have been doing that since at least 1798 when George Logan talked to France, which pissed of Congress so much that they passed the Logan Act in 1799, named after the guy who pissed them off.)

According to the Wikipedia article on the Logan Act,

1. Only one indictment under the Act in 1803, and that guy was never even prosecuted beyond an indictment.
2. District Court in Waldron v. British Petroleum Co., 231 F. Supp. 72 (S.D.N.Y. 1964) said the act was probably unconstitutional but did not rule on the question.
3. Constitutionality of the Logan Act has been publicly questioned by the House Committee on Standards of Official Conduct.

* * *

A commenter writes: “democratic senator tulsi gabbard went to syria in january, where she met with assad. she then went on talk shows, admitted this, and no one is saying she violated the logan act.”

Exactly! But I would say it with uppercase letters where norms of style dictate.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

February 15, 2017 at 7:50 am

Posted in Law, Politics

63 Responses

Subscribe to comments with RSS.

  1. So if I ran into Justin Trudeau and spoke to him, I would go to jail? #confused

    ScarletNumber

    February 15, 2017 at 8:06 am

  2. I was wondering that too. All the MSN stories treat it like it’s the end of the world, yet they never explain what the Logan Act is or why anyone cares. I think the degree of coverage that such a dull scandal is getting shows how increasingly desperate they are.

    ChavBavvy

    February 15, 2017 at 8:12 am

    • I don’t think it’s desperation. The MSM sees it as their moral duty to destroy Trump, so hearing that some of Trump’s people might be in violation of something called the Logan Act has to feel like vindication for them. Most reporters are not experts on legal matters (or anything really) so it doesn’t bother them that the Logan Act has never been enforced. That just further confirms that Trump’s presidency is without precedent.

      Richard

      February 15, 2017 at 10:51 am

  3. The act doesn’t forbid ‘talking’, here is what it forbids: ‘details the fine and/or imprisonment of unauthorized citizens who negotiate with foreign governments’. This makes perfect sense. What would be the argument that it’s unconstitutional? Good law. Every country should have it.

    Yakov

    February 15, 2017 at 8:30 am

    • And what’s the legal difference between “talking” and “negotiating”?

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      February 15, 2017 at 9:30 am

      • Lion,

        The very Wikipedia entry you link to specifically says, ” negotiate with foreign governments having a dispute with the United States.” You left out the rather important “having a dispute”, OK?

        The key words here being “negotiate” and “dispute.”

        Flynn merely talking with the rep of a foreign government is innocuous. And what’s a “dispute”? Someone please define that.

        gothamette

        February 15, 2017 at 11:57 am

      • What the definition of dispute? Every foreign government probably has discordance with the U.S. over something or other.

        The statute would be unconstitutional under the Vagueness Doctrine. Criminal laws which do not state explicitly and definitely what conduct is punishable for example are void for vagueness.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        February 15, 2017 at 12:01 pm

    • negotiation is speech. there’s that whole first amendment thing.

      • The word “dispute” is what makes it unconstitutional, IMO. I don’t think it’s unconstitutional to forbid citizens from negotiating with a government with which the US is legally at war. So if the US was legally at war with Libya, then Jackson was innocent.

        Jane Fonda, OTOH, said that she went to North Vietnam to “bring peace.” She should have been prosecuted.

        gothamette

        February 15, 2017 at 12:08 pm

  4. have you seen this article yet? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/im-a-liberal-and-i-want-milo-yiannopoulos-on-my-campus_us_5898a3dbe4b061551b3e011c

    This is interesting. Anyone familiar with NeoGaf, which I truly believe to be the best representative in existence of the Democratic base, will know that they feel like SJWs, the Regressive Left or whatever you want to call them should actually go *further* in using violence to shut down right wing speakers.

    Will moderates be purged from the Democratic party? I sure hope so.

    Otis the Sweaty

    February 15, 2017 at 9:01 am

    • It’s interesting that “supports free speech” qualifies one as a “moderate” liberal (a Nazi, in fact) these days.

      snorlaxwp

      February 15, 2017 at 11:12 am

  5. They got Flynn and now the pirhanas in the media have their taste of blood. It’s going to be wall to wall RUSSIANS until they can get another reaction from the White House. It’s hard to see how any of this ends well for our man Trump.

    Two in the Bush

    February 15, 2017 at 9:08 am

  6. Sean Penn, anybody?

    peterike

    February 15, 2017 at 9:14 am

  7. Try bringing an action in the 9th Circuit to test the constitutionality of the Logan Act. Like you, I had never heard of it.

    Black Death

    February 15, 2017 at 9:15 am

    • You would have no standing to bring it!

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      February 15, 2017 at 9:32 am

      • The 9th Circuit says otherwise!

        Jimi

        February 15, 2017 at 9:50 am

    • Negotiating is a specific form of talking, structured so as to produce a transaction. For all we know Flynn called up the Russian (did he make the call? I don’t know) as a courtesy. Hello, how are you, looking forward to working with you. That is not a negotiation.

      gothamette

      February 15, 2017 at 12:06 pm

  8. the logan act is obviously unconstitutional. hell democratic senator tulsi gabbard went to syria in january, where she met with assad. she then went on talk shows, admitted this, and no one is saying she violated the logan act.

    trump should go scorched earth on the media, and deep state. crash the plane, no survivors.

    • Jesse Jackson with Gaddafi too. He actually negotiated a prisoner release. Did he have authority?

      Mike Street Station

      February 15, 2017 at 9:35 am

  9. There must be something out there we don’t know; otherwise it’s baffling and disappointing Trump would cave because of the “Logan Act.”

    fakeemail

    February 15, 2017 at 9:21 am

    • flynn lied to pence about the phone call. the content of the phone call was flynn telling a senior russian official they’d review the sanctions, but not promising anything.

      in other words, what any other incoming presidential administration would do (candidate obama in 2008 openly said he’d negotiate with countries like north korea and iran)

      • In his resignation letter Flynn did not say he lied to Trump, only Pence and other staff. I’m guessing he told Trump everything. Trump could have even asked him not tell anyone else. Lying to Pence is just not a big deal. Certainly not grounds for firing. Once the transcript of the phone call was delivered to the White House, the Russians could no longer blackmail Flynn because he lied about the phone call to some people.

        Something else is going on that we don’t know about.

        mikeca

        February 15, 2017 at 11:08 am

      • The New York Philharmonic went to Pyongyang to play a private performance for Kim Jong-il, in protest of Bushitler’s Nazifascist refusal to even talk to our enemies.

        snorlaxwp

        February 15, 2017 at 11:15 am

      • Wow, for once I agree with mikeca.

        Trump caved to the embarrassment factor. Not good.

        gothamette

        February 15, 2017 at 11:59 am

    • Flynn briefly had a consulting relationship with Turkey that he didn’t immediately disclose to Trump during the election. Then he (perhaps honestly) forgets to tell Trump and Pence everything that was mentioned on his call with the Russian Ambassador. Leaving Pence exposed when speaking on the stupid talk shows.

      Flynn wasn’t ready for prime time as NSA. Trump was right to let him go.

      Andrew E.

      February 15, 2017 at 9:53 am

  10. Fox has Trump at 48-47 amongst registered voters. Morning Consult has Trump at 49-45. Reuters has Trump 49-46 amongst adults.

    Sorry, not buying Gallup’s 3 point drop in Trump’s approval over the last week. Gallup is rigged.

    I believe Trump currently has a +4 approval rating amongst 2018 likely voters. My guess is it is split amongst citizen adults.

    Otis the Sweaty

    February 15, 2017 at 9:21 am

    • None of this matters. The knives are out for Trump. I can easily see a soft, disguised military coup happening.

      gothamette

      February 15, 2017 at 12:01 pm

      • He has got to start draining the swamp faster. Obama probably packed the intelligence agencies with Iranians and other Trump haters before he left. Obama is engineering all these protests too. He is truly evil.

        Rosenmop

        February 15, 2017 at 12:50 pm

      • Iranians? I doubt that. I think the intelligence services are full of cucks as much as anything else.

        I agree with you that Obama is evil. I honestly think he is trying to get Hillary installed. Call me paranoid.

        gothamette

        February 15, 2017 at 3:03 pm

      • ” I think the intelligence services are full of cucks as much as anything else.”

        Full? No. Lead by? Yes.

        Mike Street Station

        February 16, 2017 at 5:29 am

      • OK.

        A lot of the older ones are actually liberal. I know one, now retired, who hates Trump with a passion. Not saying further what she said hopes happens to him. You can guess.

        gothamette

        February 16, 2017 at 12:13 pm

  11. I have heard of the Logan act, and what I have heard is no one has ever been prosecuted under it and it is probably unconstitutional.

    That aside, things don’t really add up in the stories about Flynn. The claim is the NSA transcripts of the Dec 29th call between Flynn and the Russian Ambassador showed they discussed sanctions. The hint is that Flynn told them not to worry about sanctions because Trump could lift the sanctions in a few weeks. Russia unexpectedly did not retaliate for those sanctions. Flynn then told VP Pence and other Trump staff that sanctions were not discussed in that phone call.

    US intelligence then claimed that Flynn was compromised because Russia could use this phone call to blackmail Flynn because he had lied about the call. On Jan 26th the Justice Department informed Trump of the transcript and that Flynn had lied.

    How could the Russians use the transcript of a phone call that everyone had read to blackmail Flynn? That makes no sense.

    Also note that in Flynn’s resignation letter he confesses to lying to Mike Pence but not to Trump. I assume that he told Trump about the phone call but lied to Mike Pence about it.

    While unusual, this phone call was probably not illegal. It is certainly not illegal to lie to the VP about it either. Perhaps Trump had even told Flynn to keep the conversation secret.

    It is pretty clear from all the leaks that US intelligence suspects that Flynn was a Russian mole and they simply did not trust him as national security advisor. It does not make sense that just discussing sanctions with the Russian ambassador would make them suspect this. There must be more in the transcript of that phone call or other phone calls.

    mikeca

    February 15, 2017 at 9:45 am

    • Congrats to you for not hopping on the “Trump is a Russian mole” bandwagon.

      If Trump was a Russian Mole, I’d be okay with it but I just don’t believe it. I do think that the Kremlin has something on Trump, but I’m not sure what or how damaging it is. But the evidence against Trump and his team seems awfully thin so far and without a smoking gun, which the CIA and FBI admit that they do not have, this is going nowhere.

      Otis the Sweaty

      February 15, 2017 at 11:01 am

      • I actually said that US intelligence was worried that Flynn was a Russian mole, not Trump.

        I agree there they have no smoking gun against Flynn or anyone else on the Trump staff. We would have heard about it by now if they did.

        Flynn was the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency from 2012-14. Obama fired him in 2014 for mismanagement and abuse of staff.

        Flynn setup a consulting and lobbying firm after is retirement from the military. His firm was hired by Turkey to lobby on behalf of the Erdogan government. Flynn received classified briefings as part of candidate Trumps team while still being employed by Turkey. People have raised conflict of interest questions about that.

        In December 2015 Flynn attended a big dinner in Moscow for RT, formerly Russia Today, the Russian government owned English language news service. Vladimir Putin was the guest of honor at this dinner. Flynn also gave a paid talk while in Moscow and had made frequent appearances on RT as an expert commentator.

        I suspect it is Flynn’s firing at the DIA combined with his behavior since his retirement that makes US intelligence officials suspicious of Flynn. They simply wanted him out even if there was no smoking gun.

        mikeca

        February 15, 2017 at 12:02 pm

      • Stop with the “Russian mole” stuff. Flynn isn’t a mole. He’s an open and out and out opportunist. I didn’t know that his firm did business w/Erogan, thanks.

        That alone should have disqualify him from the job.

        I hate saying this but this is a mini-fiasco.

        gothamette

        February 15, 2017 at 12:12 pm

    • VPs are often kept out of the “need-to-know” loop. Truman had never heard of the Manhattan Project until FDR died.

      SteveRogers42

      February 16, 2017 at 12:21 am

  12. I’m so disgusted with the endless “Russia, Russia, Russia” talk from the press. Now, with this NY Times article, they are going to hammer Trump with help from Deep State scum. These lunatics are afraid of the goddamned Ruskies when they should be much more concerned with Islam.

    Trump needs to up his game at this point or the distraction will tank this administration. With enemies in the press and in the intelligence bureaucracy (to say nothing of all the leaks), he needs to circle the wagons and speak to his base.

    Does anyone else feel like the animosity in this country is out of control?

    SWPL2

    February 15, 2017 at 9:45 am

    • Send the press to Russia, there’s plenty of polonium from comrade Putin to go around.

      Or better yet, let Trump start World War 3 and let the liberals fight it. Flynn can leak their strategies and locations in advance so that Russia knows where to aim their ICBMs. Maybe we can station the libs on that island Peter Thiel or whoever is building.

      Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

      February 15, 2017 at 10:15 am

    • I feel like we are spinning towards a civil war but I feel that has been the case for a while and is a good thing.

      Flynn was a loose cannon who had to go. People who are saying that this is a defeat for the Trump admin are being ridiculous when it is pretty clear from the facts that Trump did not get rid of Trump due to media pressure, but rather because Flynn was doing a bad job and Mattis, Pompeo and Pence all wanted him out.

      Otis the Sweaty

      February 15, 2017 at 10:22 am

      • People today have no fortitude to fight a civil war where people die.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        February 15, 2017 at 11:32 am

      • I do. The people on NeoGaf do.

        A civil war would be more like a social breakdown than the kind of war during the American Civil War. It would consist of right wingers killing liberals, minorities, politicians and journalists and of liberals killing white people. The country would end up being ruled by warlords made up of the broken off pieces of the armed services and law enforcement.

        Basically the next civil war will look like a nationwide version of a gang war.

        Otis the Sweaty

        February 15, 2017 at 11:49 am

      • I think most people in the US simply want to get on with their lives as they focus on making ends meet. That’s certainly my case. However, the political animosity bubbling under the surface in my own SWPL milieu is unsettling. My spouse and I are opposite ends of the spectrum and we occasionally have to remind each other cool off and avoid the subject altogether.

        My immediate fear is causing a social scene by losing my temper and telling good friends or otherwise-cordial acquaintances to go F themselves. Like it or not, the left controls social/status/professional circles for many people.

        SWPL2

        February 15, 2017 at 1:34 pm

  13. Point of the act is to prevent American citizens to negotiate with foreign powers on behalf of US government if they are not authorized to do so. Its needed because you don’t some renegade foreign service agent or CIA agent making promises or concessions to other countries on behalf on US government.

    Seems like a stretch to say Flynn violated Logan Act. Media is trying to grasp onto something.

    Jimi

    February 15, 2017 at 9:53 am

    • Hopefully the media has a plan B on DOTR, because right now they are digging themselves a very deep, nice looking grave.

      Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

      February 15, 2017 at 10:17 am

  14. Flynn has been (politically) assassinated by the Deep State. Trump could perform a “Judo” move here. He now has the excuse to flush out his Deep State enemies and crush them. He could adopt a similar strategy to Mao.

    The next couple of weeks will be crucial – they will either make or break his administration.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-14/the-political-assassination-of-michael-flynn

    https://theintercept.com/2017/02/14/the-leakers-who-exposed-gen-flynns-lie-committed-serious-and-wholly-justified-felonies/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-did-obama-dawdle-on-russias-hacking/2017/01/12/75f878a0-d90c-11e6-9a36-1d296534b31e_story.html?utm_term=.72b2c0f26409

    http://theweek.com/articles/680068/americas-spies-anonymously-took-down-michael-flynn-that-deeply-worrying

    http://freebeacon.com/national-security/former-obama-officials-loyalists-waged-campaign-oust-flynn/

    My reference to Mao is the “100 flowers bloom” affair.

    You can read what Mao said here:

    http://bit.ly/2kxH4ag

    See also:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Team

    The Mao “strategy” is to let the snakes come out of their holes. Let them come out, let them think they are winning. Let them boast. Then, strike.

    Trump could start an investigation into the “leaks”.

    Then, he could begin an investigation into Obama’s connection with Islamist.

    Then, he could begin an investigation in Clinton.

    Timing is crucial.

    Will he take them on, however?

    Does he understand what he is up against? Does Bannon?

    If a major terror attack happens on U.S soil, you can bet that he will get blamed because of his distrust of the intelligence agencies.

    darkreformation101

    February 15, 2017 at 11:11 am

    • Ah, yes, Bill Kristol. The man who pushed the Iraq invasion more than anyone else. Tens of thousands of Americans with serious injuries and amputations. Trillions of dollars in wasted. Over a million Iraqis dead. Destabilized the entire middle east and north africa. And made America a pariah around the world. For those who weren’t world travelers before and after the Iraq war the difference was night and day. We weren’t that popular before. But the Iraq war catapulted us to Public Enemy #1 worldwide. Including in countries that were previously very friendly allies. I’m not kidding. I live in one of these countries and know what I’m talking bout. The world actually sees America as worse than Iran, China and Russia.

      More recently Kristol sat on stage at an AEI conference and said America’s working class should be replaced by mass immigration. The other man on the stage is Charles Murray who had earlier argued that America’s elite should try to help the working class i.e. noblesse oblige.

      http://www.infowars.com/bill-kristol-lazy-white-working-class-americans-should-be-replaced-by-immigrants/

      destructure

      February 15, 2017 at 5:46 pm

      • What country you live in dude?

        darkreformation101

        February 15, 2017 at 8:12 pm

      • Ah, yes, Bill Kristol. The man who pushed the Iraq invasion more than anyone else. Tens of thousands of Americans with serious injuries and amputations. Trillions of dollars in wasted. Over a million Iraqis dead. Destabilized the entire middle east and north africa. And made America a pariah around the world. For those who weren’t world travelers before and after the Iraq war the difference was night and day. We weren’t that popular before. But the Iraq war catapulted us to Public Enemy #1 worldwide. Including in countries that were previously very friendly allies. I’m not kidding. I live in one of these countries and know what I’m talking bout. The world actually sees America as worse than Iran, China and Russia.

        A pariah in the same global community that preferred Clinton over Trump and Obama over Romney.

        How Globalist of you.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        February 15, 2017 at 9:40 pm

  15. Tulsa gabbard was a congresswoman right? I think that makes her not covered by the act?

    XVO

    February 15, 2017 at 11:50 am

    • She would be covered by the act. The legislative branch isn’t authorized to do executive functions like negotiating with foreign powers.

      Of course, I’m not saying that members of Congress shouldn’t be allowed to talk to foreign governments.. I think the Act is ill conceived and perhaps unconstitutional for a variety of reasons.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      February 15, 2017 at 11:59 am

  16. Ras has Trump at 53 amongst LVs and YouGov has Trump at 43 amongst adults, up from 41 last week.

    Gallup is rigged. End of discussion.

    Otis the Sweaty

    February 15, 2017 at 11:51 am

  17. In May, 1983, Ted Kennedy conspired against Ronald Reagan in a behind-the-scenes deal with a Soviet top official, Yuri Andropov.

    “Ted Kennedy’s Soviet Gambit”
    http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/27/ted-kennedy-soviet-union-ronald-reagan-opinions-columnists-peter-robinson.html

    Mark Caplan

    February 15, 2017 at 11:55 am

    • Came here to post that. This should never be forgotten. Ted Kennedy is an execrable man-child who used his position of power to exploit people and to shield himself from the consequences of his actions.

      Half Canadian

      February 15, 2017 at 12:34 pm

      • He’s been dead for 7 years.

        ScarletNumber

        February 15, 2017 at 6:31 pm

  18. Always remember, that whatever law or policies exist, they are applied very differently to Republicans than to Democrats. A Republican who pats a girl on the tush is driven out of office. A Democrat who rapes someone… ehhh, no biggie. This rule applies everywhere and always and for any reason.

    peterike

    February 15, 2017 at 12:39 pm

  19. Trump didn’t cave to anything. The most fundamental law of bissiness is that you NEVER lie to your boss in business related matters. The boss needs to heat about a problem from you, not from the competition or the opposition. Flint should’ve been savaged. Trump is the best!

    Yakov

    February 15, 2017 at 2:26 pm

    • Flynn works for Trulmp, not Pence. We don’t know what if anything Flynn lied to Trump about. There’s no publicly released recording of the conversation. So we don’t even know what Flynn said to the Russian ambassador, so how can we know that he lied if we don’t even know what was said? We have only the interpretation of leakers, leakers who are clearly out to get Trump and Flynn, that Flynn “talked about sanctions.”

      Furthermore, the government is full of people making little white lies as part of their job.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      February 15, 2017 at 2:30 pm

      • Now come’n, Trump is the boss and anyone who deceives or causes him embarassment should be eliminated (like lose their job, not rubbed out). Lying FOR Trump is fine – this is what they call democracy.

        Yakov

        February 15, 2017 at 2:41 pm

      • Diplomacy

        Yakov

        February 15, 2017 at 3:54 pm

      • Flynn admitted to “inadvertently” misleading the administration about his conversation. Of course, that’s a nice way of admitting he lied. Based on those lies, Pence publicly defended Flynn and wound up with egg on his face. So, yes, Flynn lied to Trump. He lied to both of them. And now congress (including McCain) are clamoring for an investigation. Trump’s administration will probably be subjected to a witch hunt because Flynn lied. I think Trump really liked Flynn and didn’t want to ask for his resignation. But I don’t think Trump had any choice but to act on it. Not because he was under pressure and caved. But because he can’t keep a national security advisor who lied to him.

        destructure

        February 15, 2017 at 6:20 pm

      • “And now congress (including McCain) are clamoring for an investigation. ”

        Particularly McCain. It must be great for the Democrats to have their own little coterie of Republicans willing to serve Democratic interests at all times simply because they hate Trump far worse than they ever hated Democrats. McCain will be the leading talking head for any investigation into the Trump administration for the next four years.

        Mike Street Station

        February 16, 2017 at 6:54 am

  20. I knew it was illegal for private citizens to engage in diplomacy. But I can also think of a number of high profile instances which weren’t prosecuted. I think that a lot of corporations, foundations, charities, etc could fall under this if an AG wanted to get aggressive about prosecuting it. But there’s no reason to unless they’re actively seeking to undermine the diplomatic efforts of the executive branch. I think it’s never been prosecuted because anyone doing that is doing it discretely and probably not in a way that runs afoul of the PTB. Only in this case, Flynn is on tape discussing sanctions against Russia. And the deep state has a hard-on for Russia.

    PS: I don’t see how Soros hasn’t been prosecuted for this.

    destructure

    February 15, 2017 at 7:04 pm

  21. Taking the situation in total, with the press’s role and its collusion with the deep state, as well as seditious statements by fringe members of the NatSec apparatus who communicate with the public, it has to be concluded that this is a formal, barely-soft attempted coup.

    Whether or not Trump can enact a counter-coup will be almost fully dependent on his ability to trust his inner circle.

    If he has leaks that lead into the highest echelons of the WH staff, then his enemies will know what he is doing before it can be enacted and he will be effectively countered at every turn. Any action will be spun to their propaganda requirements before it can have an effect.

    If he can take action without leaks (even if it means knowing who the leakers are without acting against them to tip them off, thus keeping them from enacting a figurative suicide vest), then he has a chance. At this point, he should be holding all critical meetings in a deeper room in the WH that he knows to be free of listening devices. I trust that he is. I would hope that he has active military command that he can trust, and at least a couple of friends in his cabinet. But who can he really trust other than Bannon and maybe Miller?

    I admit that its somewhat difficult to read underneath much of the hysteria. However, what I do read is that this is being overblown to a level that approaches sedition for a variety of people and institutions. Some of them are a few hastily considered words away from a sedition charge, at least in my perception of what sedition comprises.

    Other than the known facts, much else of what is said is so detached from those facts that it could be well studied as an example of mass hysteria in the future. The question is whether such mass hysteria can actually carry the impeachment ball over the goal-line, or if our system is strong enough to guard against such a travesty.

    I do doubt the nation’s ability to pull the liberals back from the edge. They may practically insist on a conflict after this, in both action and word, over any government. It’s a tragic psychological situation, based on the difference between the reality of the situation and their claims, but mass hysteria was never noted to be proximate to the rational.

    Marc

    February 15, 2017 at 7:10 pm


Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: