Lion of the Blogosphere

Students who use vouchers to go to private schools get lower test scores

From an article, this week, in The Alantic:

… early evidence on student achievement also points to negative outcomes for families that took advantage of the vouchers. According to a report on LSP conducted by the Brookings Institution last May, students who relocated to private schools via the vouchers recorded lower scores on standardized math and reading assessments: After one year in private school, a child who scored in the 50th percentile for math in his public school declined to the 34th percentile. Declines in reading scores were less significant—students dropped from the 50th percentile to the 46th percentile after a year in private school—but still apparent.

Now who could have predicted this startling outcome?

I will tell you who predicted it. Me. I did! Back in November I wrote:

Those who try to measure the “success” of the vouchers and charter schools will try to determine if test scores have improved for poor, minority and “disadvantaged” kids, and I guarantee you that scores on the highly g-loaded reading and math tests will not improve. If anything, the public schools, with their emphasis on endless drilling for the tests, have maxed out any possible score increases for these kids, and higher quality instruction would probably result in lower scores.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

February 17, 2017 at 6:25 pm

Posted in Education

44 Responses

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  1. Will we ever not have to have tax dollars for schools? One room school houses didn’t cost much, but we spend a ton of money on schools now.

    We don’t need sports, band, plays etc, which would lower the cost. Although I think parents have to pay extra for those things in some schools, even cheer leading.

    There has got to be a better, less expensive way to teach kids to read and write without huge, industrial schools.

    ttgy

    February 17, 2017 at 6:47 pm

    • The first American HS that I’d attended had excellent Athletics department. I ran cross-country and it was an excellent program. We had great wrestlers, soccer, basketball, football etc. Nice football field. I think athletics are very important, it’s the American spirit that should be preserved. The school was all white. I would ban cheerleading though, because those are sluts.

      Yakov

      February 18, 2017 at 7:52 pm

    • The problem with not providing extracurricular activities is the length of the school day. Until about ten years ago, Germany had half day school. Kids got out at like 11:30 to go home for lunch. Then came back for about an hour for the last class and school let out at 1:00. There was no lunch and no extra curricular activities. When you have a school program from 8:00 in the morning till 3:30 in the afternoon, you are filling the students’ entire day. It is just plain not healthy for children to just sit that long. They need other activities. They are human beings, not little machines. So, yes, you can cut out all the extra stuff, but then you have to cut the amount of time the kids are in your custody by several hours. And no self respecting social engineer or SJW is going to entrust children to their own famiies. The horror! Kids would be indoctrinated by mom and dad instead of oh so superior SJW’s.

      not too late

      February 19, 2017 at 6:17 am

  2. I could have predicted it too. They won’t freaking stop, they’ll go to their graves perpetually surprised that people are people, that class and race exist, that African tribes act like African tribes.

    About this outing of Publius Decius, Lion has been totally behind on this. He’s been outed and roasted by the left. Will he survive?

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/decius-unmasked/article/2006623

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2017/02/government_by_white_nationalism_is_upon_us.html

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/02/americas-leading-authoritarian-intellectual-works-for-trump.html

    The best is the 3rd by Chait.

    gothamette

    February 17, 2017 at 6:49 pm

    • When was American education worthy of any discussion?

      School is consumerism for those who can afforded it, and it’s a form of welfare for low IQ undesirables who can’t afforded it.

      America has come to an end. And speaking of White nationalism, only a ruthless segregation/eradication of non-whites will move this country forward. Proles are also expected to die along the way, but non-whites need to be dealt heavy handed by the most extremist of radicals. This is where bloodletting has a catharsis effect.

      Sad, but true!

      JS

      February 17, 2017 at 8:30 pm

      • “School is consumerism for those who can afforded [sic] it, and it’s a form of welfare for low IQ undesirables who can’t afforded [sic] it.”

        I’ve been saying forever that public government schools are nothing more than free babysitting for the dusky low-IQ hordes, before they matriculate to welfare and/or prison. Some states and cities have extended free babysitting out to age 23 with universal free [sic] college.

        hard9bf

        February 18, 2017 at 10:16 am

      • Free college isn’t a bad thing.

        It’s demographics I’ll tell ya. America is like a clogged pipe stuffed with undesirables.

        America is one of the most dynamic nations in the world, yet, very few White people are polymaths.

        JS

        February 18, 2017 at 12:27 pm

      • I’d attended two all white American HS and they were good. JS, how come you only see negative all around you?

        Yakov

        February 18, 2017 at 7:54 pm

      • Because Americans are more deranged than ever. Worse, Americans are more parochial compared to a few decades ago. And it will be more of the same, now that Donald Trump wants to make America an insular nation — trapped in a vacuum with low IQ undesirables.

        JS

        February 18, 2017 at 8:43 pm

      • I had good teachers, principals and classmates. And I’m greatfull, I think the problem may be with you. My principal designed an individual program for me to enable me to graduate in two years. Very nice of him. All our coaches were also teachers. My cross-country coach taught math. They were more intelligent then gym teachers in the Soviet Union. Those were good schools, mate. True, they were too easy for me, but they were good for the general population and everyone was nice, which is most important. You are a sour puss.

        Yakov

        February 18, 2017 at 10:05 pm

      • http://www.mhrd.org/mkhs

        This is the first H.S. that I’d attended. A beautiful place. Check out the excellent Athletics department and pics on the Web. Tell this isn’t a good place.

        Yakov

        February 18, 2017 at 10:35 pm

      • “I’d attended two all white American HS and they were good. JS, how come you only see negative all around you?”

        There are very good public schools. I went to private school, but the public schools in my area were very good and all white.

        Politicians complain about school performance but a lot of the poor performance is because there are so many nams in the public schools now bringing down the scores. If only whites and east Asians were counted, the scores would be equal to any other top country.

        I am still against public schools now. I am more and more against any tax dollars for schools, even vouchers. I am becoming more anti-state or govt now, sort of an Austrian school follower. I agree with them that govt is force and taxes are theft.

        I detest the govt more and more. At least if we are going to have a country we should control the borders and look out for ourselves, so that is why I like Trump. What the hell is the point of a country when you can’t even control the borders.

        ttgy

        February 18, 2017 at 11:27 pm

      • Lion will tell you otherwise about the proles or guidos that reside in Staten Island. “White ethnics” of the Northeast are problematic, although not as bad as NAMs.

        JS

        February 19, 2017 at 12:27 am

  3. Brookings? Sorry just more fake news you feel for HS….

    Lion of the Turambar

    February 17, 2017 at 7:12 pm

    • If you read one of Brookings studies and didn’t see the sleight of hand it’s not because it wasn’t there. It’s because their hand was quicker than your eye.

      In this case, their goal was to show that “Vouchers are bad, mmmkay?” But if you read my comment further down you’ll see that vouchers aren’t the problem. The problem is that students are being placed in private schools beyond their abilities. I wouldn’t be surprised if the people who wrote that study don’t have their own kids in private schools. Which only shows what hypocrites they are.

      destructure

      February 17, 2017 at 8:29 pm

    • I must say I am really glad DeVos got the nomination in spite of democrat senators resistance. Unlike other democrats and stupid Bernie bros, I actually like Trumps Education secy, Epa and health services pick.

      Wt

      February 17, 2017 at 8:32 pm

  4. Is Lion claiming that while the test scores are bad, the kids are actually getting a decent education?

    Jukking the Stats:

    Y’all might like to take a gander at dis:

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/no-thug-left-behind-14951.html

    Absolute insanity!

    The changes – letting black boys slide on standards – are to reduce the numbers of BBs in the pipeline to prison. These folks, as the article claims, are more likely, however, to increase the number of poor, black, vulnerable males to prison.

    I believe this all needs to be understood as adaptive.

    The purpose of government intervention is not to solve the problem, but to make it worse.

    Why?

    Because that way they can justify increased government intervention.

    darkreformation101

    February 17, 2017 at 7:54 pm

  5. Why did the scores drop? Is it because private schools are bad? If that’s the case then why are the scores for students who don’t receive vouchers higher than the public schools? Would they similarly have higher scores if they attended public schools? I think that may actually be true for some. But it’s important to understand Why?

    I would suggest that the public school students did better before they switched because they were in the top half of their class in the public schools. But they were in the bottom half of their class at the private schools. When they were in the top half the speed and difficulty are within their ability. But when they were in the bottom half the speed and difficulty were beyond their ability.

    Therefore, I would suggest vouchers would only work for public school students who would be in the top half of the private school class. In fact, I would suggest the optimum place for any student is around the 75th percentile in their class. This is the sweet spot at which a student is able to master the material without it being too slow or easy. I can’t take credit for this idea. It’s from a study I read several years ago.

    This has a number of consequences. It means that it’s a mistake to go to an Ivy league school if you’re in the bottom half. It means that affirmative action and integration really don’t help most blacks. It means the best thing schools could do to help most students would be to have streaming. As it would put students in classes more appropriate to their abilities. But school administrators are adamantly opposed to streaming and regard it as “segregation”. And, finally, it means that segregation was probably a good thing for most blacks.

    Going to a school where one will always the dumbest person in class isn’t the path to success.

    destructure

    February 17, 2017 at 8:17 pm

    • “It means that it’s a mistake to go to an Ivy league school if you’re in the bottom half.”

      It’s never a mistake to go to an Ivy League school. You go to school to get a credential that lets you get a job, not to actually learn anything.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      February 17, 2017 at 8:54 pm

      • Only HYP gives one the full advantage of job choice. An undergrad degree from Columbia doesn’t do you much, except a nice fun n play experience in NYC.

        JS

        February 17, 2017 at 11:18 pm

      • “It’s never a mistake to go to an Ivy League school. You go to school to get a credential that lets you get a job, not to actually learn anything.”

        Ah, you never tire of licking your favorite chestnut. Of course credentials get you in the door — but they won’t keep you in the door if your performance sucks.

        hard9bf

        February 18, 2017 at 10:21 am

      • ‘You go to school to get a credential that lets you get a job, not to actually learn anything.’

        Deep insecurity in these words, also detachment from reality. I suggest you get shrunk. Let a shrink read your blog and then blog about it. I think Medicaid covers it.

        Now some schools, like Apex, don’t teach anything and should be avoided. Otherwise skills are everything. That includes soft skills, which is something that is hard to teach. You kinda gotta have it in you. If you don’t, you gotta be pretty exceptional to make it, because we need to cooperate to make things happen in the work place.

        Now, there may be places where they only hire Ivy grads, I dunno, but these are a tiny fraction of the market. Life doesn’t start and end with a college degree, mate.

        Also, going to school just to a get a piece of paper to certify your attendance in hope of being hired is the epitome of a faggot. You cannot mean that seriously. I just don’t beleive that you do.

        Yakov

        February 19, 2017 at 8:03 am

    • Where did you read that students given vouchers came from the top half of students?

      Magnavox

      February 17, 2017 at 10:28 pm

  6. One of the consistent features of The Gap is that it’s at its smallest in primary school and continuously grows until students graduate high school. No matter what school the students in the study were attending, and how good their teachers were, we would expect their test scoring percentile to drop.

    Black brains simply reach maturity earlier (on average). This is why they often seem very childlike. This is also why they can be very functional at IQ scores which would indicate semi-retardation in non-blacks; black adults with the age-adjusted IQ of a 12-year-old would’ve had normal-range intelligence for half their school years, while non-black adults with the same IQ would’ve been many years behind their peers their entire lives.

    The more general form of this observation is the obvious strong correlation between intelligence and neoteny.

    snorlaxwp

    February 17, 2017 at 8:33 pm

  7. I understand the intent behind vouchers, but the concept makes no sense. School systems are not for-profit enterprises. They see no benefit in simply increasing market share. For most schools, their most important role is the sorting function – their value comes from who they keep out, either through geography (public schools) or admissions (private schools). What possible motive would a good school have for taking a few measly govt $ to increase their student population? Especially if in doing so, they drive away the high paying good students.

    Milestone D

    February 17, 2017 at 8:46 pm

    • It’s supposed to work by bringing choice and competition. And people who believe in right wing economics think this will magically lead to improvement. I think this would work as long as parents and guardians are given accurate information about what kind of improvement can be expected for a given student. People are too often led to believe that their child is a victim of a poor school and that the vast majority if not all private and charter schools would be an improvement.

      Non profits do want money and some of them will be willing to lower the quality of their student body in exchange for more of it. Plus many private schools are for profit, and there would be more of them if voucher programs were more common.

      The smart thing would be to allow schools that accept vouchers to screen students. That’s the most realistic way to get tracking and an education system that give students educations that are matched to their own abilities and circumstances.

      Magnavox

      February 17, 2017 at 10:46 pm

    • I think the sweet spot for vouchers is when they cover between half to three quarters of the tuitions at a private school. An upper middle class family with a couple of kids is going to have trouble paying ~$20k/year/child, so they would be likely move to the suburbs if that’s the case. Getting the effective tuition rate down to $5-10k/year/child would be much more manageable.

      Aristippus

      February 17, 2017 at 10:48 pm

  8. I don’t lion, this study seems pretty heavy into statistical voodoo to me. Nber working paper number 21839. Check out their model and methods. Not exactly straightforward. I don’t even think the had before and after scores for each kid. They are just trying to compare kids who left to kids who remained be matching socioeconomic factors. Maybe it simply reflects parents of underperfoming students being more likely to go with the voucher program.

    I admit I didn’t look too closely but my initial impression made me skeptical.

    Steve@steve.com

    February 17, 2017 at 9:41 pm

    • Scores on reading and math tests are mostly “g,” and public schools do an excellent job of endlessly drilling kids to get higher scores on the tests. It’s stupid to expect better results from vouchers.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      February 17, 2017 at 10:42 pm

      • I don’t really agree with the part about drilling. Nonetheless, if they don’t have before transfer and after transfer scores for individual students, saying “After one year in private school, a child who scored in the 50th percentile for math in his public school declined to the 34th percentile” is bogus.

        steve@steve.com

        February 18, 2017 at 12:12 am

  9. The whole idea of going to private school is to get away from blacks and their imitators. Vouchers are the “Tru-Con” solution to black dysfunction, i.e. the assumption that “low expectations” is what hold blacks back.
    But hardcore realists about black culture know that blacks just love mucking things up for Whitey. That’s why white parents have to fear vouchers. The reason blacks fear vouchers is it might mean less money for the public system, which is the source of most 6-figure incomes for blacks. It’s a conundrum. Separation is the only way.

    marty

    February 17, 2017 at 10:00 pm

    • Or bloodletting. Old geezers in the like of Dylan Roof can make their sacrifice

      JS

      February 17, 2017 at 11:12 pm

  10. I like you lion, but you know nothing about instruction. Modern day bussing is likely to fail for the very simple reason that if you’re being taught higher grade level than your performance justifies, you will learn less. If you can’t add, you will not learn algebra, and you won’t learn to add either.

    Secondly, middle class kids are easier to teach, so their superior performance doesn’t necessarily imply better teachers.

    Thirdly, math and reading tests are assuredly NOT highly g-loaded because otherwise it wouldn’t be possible to consistently raise children from the 20th to the 50th or higher percentile with quality instruction. Which it is.

    Fourthly, drilling for yearly standards based tests is an abysmal approach to maximising reading and math skills. There are better approaches.

    What approach. The one that it’d a wonder to me conservatives aren’t universally aware of and advocating for. The one with an order of magnitude more data speaking in its favour, the winner by a mile of the biggest education experiment ever conducted, Siegfried Englemann’s direct instruction. And he despises the progressive education establishment too. How come nobody’s ever heard of him?

    Dc

    February 18, 2017 at 5:23 am

  11. Lion, after all your work, so many commenters disagreeing with the obvious truth in what you say!
    Many such cases! SAD!

    jjbees

    February 18, 2017 at 8:15 am

    • People who so tied into “vouchers come from Republicans and liberals hate them, so vouchers must be GOOD!”

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      February 18, 2017 at 8:40 am

  12. I won’t claim to have known what you are saying for years, but I have thought something similar for years. Specifically, I have always thought that vouchers won’t bring good education to poor kids: rather, they will increase the cost of good education for middle class/rich kids. It is the same for any subsidized good. To simplify it for this blog: if private school costs 10K, and the government decides to give everybody vouchers for 10K, then private school will just cost 20K-or whatever the market will bear. Private schools won’t simply stay at 10K and simply double in size.

    I’ve said it to friends-all of whom have their kids in private schools. Private school parents aren’t paying for a building, or teachers, or books, or even crosses in the classrooms. They are paying for classmates. If 10K doesn’t get the right classmates (and vouchers by definition ruin this), then private school parents will go elsewhere (more expensive private school, more exclusive private school, homeschool, etc).

    anonymousse

    anonymousse

    February 18, 2017 at 9:03 am

  13. I’m spitballing this so I might be wrong, but many vouchers go to charter schools catering to kids who can’t hack normal school because of health, social, or academic reasons, so you’d expect lower test scores from them. Not all private schools are elite — many are essentially for screw-ups.

    hard9bf

    February 18, 2017 at 10:08 am

  14. Statistics is kind of like Homeopathy. It makes you feel better, but does not solve the problem.

    My Two Cents

    February 18, 2017 at 2:23 pm

  15. “Free” public schools has turned into the disaster that all welfare programs turn into eventually. This whole Public School thing was always a scam. An efficiency expert working for factory owners pushed the false narrative of “literacy”. Factory owners were complaining they couldn’t find enough compliant workers to leave their small farms and family businesses to work at low-paying assembly lines. That whole lame experience of Public School where you are forced to get up at the early morning bloodshot eye hours and are forced to do meaningless repetitive tasks for little reward under poor supervision is no accident Boyo. Its just the kind of “training” that low-paid proles who do the repetitive tasks in factory assembly lines do every day.
    Public Education does what it was intended to. Make compliant drones that blindly obey authorities and do boring shit against their will. Charter Schools and Vouchers are like putting a band aid over a festering diseased wound.
    There’s no fairness in forcing people who pay for public schools and then private schooling to pay more so the dumb losers can ruin the private schools they are paying extra for. Its a naked attempt to prevent people from saving their kids from the “OBEY”, and “SUBMIT” undercurrent of Pubic Mindrape Edumacashun.
    Back in the day, people had to pay out of pocket for schooling. When you pay directly, you see to it your kids attend and the schools teach them what YOU want. Entitlements and welfare push the lie of “FREE”. Its not “FREE” and neither are YOU.

    Joshua Sinistar

    February 18, 2017 at 5:03 pm

  16. more likely the pubschool cheats on its standardized math tests
    plenty of people attesting to such things and even some convictions

    grg

    February 18, 2017 at 9:15 pm

  17. Education is the Faith Healing of the Left. Whatever societal problem you bring up, they want to solve with moar education. Poverty, crime, poor nutrition, and anything else. Moar education. Send them to school not prison. Its not surprising though. You have to take a closer look at the lefties to see why. They are life’s losers. Poor genes, poor social skills, few friends and of course that notorious bad childhood they always cry about. All of them have the same story trope in common. There was this “teacher” or “professor” who took an interest in them. They joined some Marxist society or marginalised group identity organization. And now, they piss off everyone by talking about shit people were tired of 50 years ago. But it changed their whole life. Yeah, OK. Education for the masses. Education is a safe place for losers to hide from the harsh realities of life, and they’ll make you pay for it.

    Joshua Sinistar

    February 19, 2017 at 1:45 am


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