Lion of the Blogosphere

Emoluments Clause, again

Maryland and DC are suing Trump alleging that he has been violating the Emoluments Clause.

We see again how Trump is hated more than any other President in recent memory. (Perhaps the first President Johnson was hated by northern states as much as Trump is hated by “blue” states.) While there were many citizen-initiated lawsuits against Obama for not being eligible to be President on account of not proving that he was a “natural-born citizen,” none were filed by actual states.

Traditionally, suits like this have been thrown out for lack of standing. Where is the direct harm to DC or Maryland if someone who works for a foreign government stays at a Trump hotel? But we have seen that there are many federal judges who hate Trump and will make up new rules to allow anti-Trump lawsuits to proceed.

I will restate what I’ve written before on this topic. The Constitution doesn’t say that the President, or any other office holder, has to sell everything they own in order to serve. And also, it’s business-as-usual for politicians to make personal profit from their positions. The Clintons and Al Gore made hundreds of millions of dollars after leaving office. Lower down in the trenches, it’s standard for the spouses of Senators and Representatives to get cushy high-paying jobs that cannot be explained by their resumes.

The Emoluments Clause, a product of the 1700s, envisioned direct payments and American officials being offered prestigious titles (like Duke, Baron, etc) by foreign governments. It didn’t envision an ongoing international business. Such things didn’t exist in the 1700s.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

June 12, 2017 at EST am

Posted in Uncategorized

78 Responses

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  1. I love that the left is going after this now, they will lose on it of course. With the Russia thing winding down, we don’t suddenly want the Dems to wise up and drop the moonbattery. Moonbattery scares normies and the normies are moving heavily into the Repubs column.

    Andrew E.

    June 12, 2017 at EST am

    • It’s going to be another round of headaches. I looked up the partisan split of federal judges covering Maryland, and both the district and circuit court of appeals are heavily dominated by Democrats. Under the “Sic volo, sic jubeo” philosophy that governs liberal jurisprudence nowadays, Trump will almost certainly lose the early rounds, just like with the travel ban.

      Maybe — maybe — if Anthony Kennedy is feeling cool-headed, Trump will be allowed a legal victory that every other president before this would have been given straightaway.

      Richard

      June 12, 2017 at EST am

      • Kennedy is rumored to retire after the session this month. We’ll see, but if he does I kind of hope SCOTUS chooses not to re-instate the ban until the full case is heard in October. This will force Trump to once again pat Ivanka on the head and say “Thanks honey, we got this.” and appoint a Don Willett to the bench in Kennedy’s place. And it will keep his feet to the fire on other immigration issues in the meantime.

        Andrew E.

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

  2. No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

    ARTICLE I, SECTION 9, CLAUSE 8

    It’s quite a stretch, to say the least, to believe that that this clause prohibits government officials from the legitimate income that they derive from their businesses. The clear intent is to prevent foreign rulers or states from influencing our officials. If I were a taxpayer in DC or Maryland, i would object to having my tax dollars squandered on this sort of baseless litigation, not that such an objection would do any good.

    But if they really want to pursue such foolishness, perhaps their next target might be Bernie Sanders, who
    owns three houses and made over $1 million last year. Oh, the inhumanity of it all – how could he be expected to scrape by on his congressional salary of $174,000 per year!

    BTW, I’m old enough to remember LBJ, and he was pretty universally disliked because of the Vietnam war and the civil rights legislation. This wasn’t limited to the South – the northern George Wallace voters hated him too.

    Black Death

    June 12, 2017 at EST am

    • Even if Trump has the legal right to fire Comey and shut down FBI investigations into his election campaign or to have foreign governments court favor by funneling money to his varied financial interests it’s still unpopular and unseemly. It’s smart politics as well as being legitimate and ethical to bring attention to it, either by filing court cases or through congressional investigations.

      Magnavox

      June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • highlighting concerns isn’t why we have federal courts.

      • Magnavox,

        Stellar reasoning there.

        I guess foreign governments buying Barack Obama’s book when he was president also means Obama was in violation of the Emoluments Clause.

        map

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • “I guess foreign governments buying Barack Obama’s book when he was president also means Obama was in violation of the Emoluments Clause.”

        If the currrent Democratic talking points were applied to Obama, then yes, that would be an “Emolument” violation as well.

        Mike Street Station

        June 13, 2017 at EST am

      • highlighting concerns isn’t why we have federal courts.

        Actually courts do exist to flesh out the meaning of ambiguous legal concepts. There’s also a long history of using court cases to bring publicity to various issues.

        I guess foreign governments buying Barack Obama’s book when he was president also means Obama was in violation of the Emoluments Clause.

        I think it would if they bought enough of them.

        Magnavox

        June 14, 2017 at EST am

      • I actually don’t think that. I think it would be a legitimate thing to bring up if they bought enough.

        Magnavox

        June 14, 2017 at EST pm

    • And your Sanders example makes no sense. And you have no evidence that foreign governments aren’t influencing Trump.

      Magnavox

      June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • “And you have no evidence that foreign governments aren’t influencing Trump.”

        I see no evidence that you aren’t molesting children, Magnavox. When will you stop?

        Richard

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • Magnavox, you’re an idiot. We also have no evidence that you’re not the Zodiac killer, so I would shut the …. up.

        sfd@asf.com

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • The clear intent is to prevent foreign rulers or states from influencing our officials.

        If he says this he should back it up or make it clear that it’s just his supposition. Who says that foreign governments aren’t trying to influence Trump by, for instance, patronizing Trump hotel in Washington.

        Magnavox

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • I also suspect you’re wrong about the original intention of the clause, and that it was also about preventing the american president from influencing foreign powers in ways that advanced his own financial interests at the expense of the best interests of the country.

        Magnavox

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • 1700s: no easy way to get to Europe. No telephones. Doing international business was pretty much impossible.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • Bernie Sanders received much of his very generous income from St. Martin’s Press, whose parent company, Macmillan, is based in the UK and is owned by Verlagsgruppe Georg von Holtzbrinck, based in Stuttgart, Germany. Please provide evidence that St, Bernie isn’t influenced by foreign governments.

        Black Death

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • There should be a WordPress plugin that appends “The above content was paid for by ShareBlue (c) & the Clinton Foundation” on comments made by MikeCA and Magnavox. I can pay an Indian programmer (preferably rated low on the BO scale) to program one if Lion wants it.

        Panther of the Blogocube

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • (preferably rated low on the BO scale) to program one if Lion wants it.

        Depends whether Lion likes his code to be buggy and half-assed.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • Who says that foreign governments aren’t trying to influence Trump by, for instance, patronizing Trump hotel in Washington.

        During the Muslim Brotherhood’s coup attempt against then Egyptian President Mubarak officials from the Brotherhood routinely met with Obama and his officials.

        Would it be wrong to say Obama does not have deep connections to the Brotherhood, a known Islamic terrorist group?

        The Undiscovered Jew

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • Gingrich is calling for Trump to fire the special counsel.

        I’m with Gingrich especially now when Comey made clear there was no collusion and the all that’s left to investigate are procedural crimes like Flynn’s testimony about his conversation with the Russian ambassador, how many times Sessions met with the Russian ambassador last year, or Paul Manafort’s income he earned consulting with Ukrainian politicians years before Trump ran for President, and whether Mueller can invent an obstruction of justice case out thing air against Trump based on Comey’s memos.

        Does Lion agree with Gingrich?

        The Undiscovered Jew

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • If Mueller is fired how about replacing him with Rudy Giuliani?

        The Democrats will flip out, but if there is (as Comey himself testified) no evidence Trump colluded with Russia then their hysterics may be to Trump’s advantage: While the Democrats obsess about Guiliani’s “bias” the public will gradually lose interest in the case.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • Black death: that’s a much better argument regarding Sanders. Although its still not very good because it’s a foreign corporation not a foreign government.

        Panther: I don’t support Clinton. Im profoundly disappointed by Trump. He’s been a failure so far.

        TUJ: you’re making trump-russia style arguments just about Obama and the Muslim brotherhood.

        Magnavox

        June 13, 2017 at EST am

      • TUJ: you’re making trump-russia style arguments just about Obama and the Muslim brotherhood.

        Then you agree Obama colluded with the Muslim Brotherhood to overthrow the government of a long standing ally since you also agree with Trump-Russia collusion theories.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        June 13, 2017 at EST pm

      • I don’t think Trump colluded with Russia.

        Magnavox

        June 13, 2017 at EST pm

    • The emoluments clause is silent on foreign private companies showering US office holders with gifts. It is likewise silent on fair trade, where one party provides a good or service (a book, a hotel room) and the other party provides a fair market value payment.

      Mark Caplan

      June 13, 2017 at EST pm

  3. I think it is highly unlikely these suites will go anywhere. Just some state attorneys trying to score political points.

    What I find interesting is the reaction to Comey.

    Trump and his lawyer have come out swinging. They claim Comey is a liar and a leaker who just hates Trump, but Comey told the truth when he said Trump was not currently the target of the FBI investigation, so they exonerates Trump.

    Republicans in Congress look at this as a he said/he said controversy and realize that Comey has a lot more credibility than Trump. Republicans in Congress don’t seem to be calling for Comey to be charged with perjury for lying to Congress. Instead Republicans in Congress are saying Trump is naive and didn’t understand what he was doing was inappropriate. Without saying it Republicans are admitting that Trump is a liar but they claim he is not a crook because he “is just new at this”.

    Now even Republicans admit Trump is a pathological liar and even they cannot defend his bullshit anymore.

    mikeca

    June 12, 2017 at EST am

    • Republicans never defended Trump. Senate Republicans especially have 0 loyalty to Trump.

      Comey is obviously a liar, you may just be too blinded by your love of immigrants to notice as much. That said, I suspect Trump probably did ask Comey to “let go” of the Flynn thing, like Comey said. Republicans aren’t defending it because such a request/statement from Trump really is inappropriate. It also isn’t illegal.

      Otis the Sweaty

      June 12, 2017 at EST pm

    • You are looking at X and seeing Y. Comey’s credibility is finished in DC and his troubles are just beginning. He even managed to light a fire under Sessions’ by impugning Sessions’ credibility during his testimony.

      But by all means, keep it up along with the Dems. We WANT you to keep up your collective insanity as we approach midterms.

      Andrew E.

      June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • Comey’s career may be finished but he comes off as very credible. Trump is only convincing and credible when he’s shooting himself in the foot, which is, admittedly, a lot of the time. But not enough of the time to make him even remotely credible overall.

        Magnavox

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • Sessions tomorrow will be interesting. Hope it’s covered live.

        gda

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • Comey’s career may be finished but he comes off as very credible.

        Again, looking at X and seeing Y. Comey is a weasel and has been unmasked before the country.

        Quoting John Nolte’s twitter:

        “Lynch asked Comey to lie, he agreed.

        Trump asked Comey to tell the truth, he refused.

        SCUMBAG”

        Andrew E.

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • They claim Comey is a liar and a leaker who just hates Trump, but Comey told the truth when he said Trump was not currently the target of the FBI investigation, so they exonerates Trump.

        Since you believe Comey is honest you must also believe him when he testified there is no evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia?

        The Undiscovered Jew

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • That said, I suspect Trump probably did ask Comey to “let go” of the Flynn thing, like Comey said. Republicans aren’t defending it because such a request/statement from Trump really is inappropriate. It also isn’t illegal.

        It’s arguable if its even inappropriate.

        The statement could be interpreted as a testimony to Flynn’s character. Also “hope” is not an order, although as Dershowitz has written (and Comey agreed with during his testimony) Presidents actually have the Constitutional right to order an end to any FBI investigation.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

      • Yeah, Comey is real credible.

        A major corporate lawyer and an FBI Director simply was not “strong enough” to report any wrongdoing to the relevant authorities. He was very abused like all of those women being sexually harassed.

        Comey should update his Grindr account.

        map

        June 12, 2017 at EST pm

    • “Instead Republicans in Congress are saying Trump is naive and didn’t understand what he was doing was inappropriate.”

      which is insane because congress passed laws explicitly allowing the president to sack political appointments. they’re disappointed he followed their laws.

      the gop is trump’s true enemy. that party deserves to die.

  4. This country is done.

    jjbees

    June 12, 2017 at EST pm

    • I’m waiting for a group of Elmer Fudds to come out of the wood work and start raining on the DC establishment.

      JS

      June 12, 2017 at EST pm

  5. I don’t think Trump violated this. In the past, Kings would give annual pensions to people who did their bidding.

    However, when there is no obvious person with standing, like in Establishment Clause cases, the rule requiring standing gets relaxed.

    Pop

    June 12, 2017 at EST pm

  6. Just saw an article that says Mueller is staffing his investigation with long time Dem donors.
    http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/robert-mueller-stocks-staff-democrat-donors/

    destructure

    June 12, 2017 at EST pm

  7. The Emoluments Clause, a product of the 1700s, envisioned direct payments and American officials being offered prestigious titles (like Duke, Baron, etc) by foreign governments. It didn’t envision an ongoing international business. Such things didn’t exist in the 1700s.

    They didn’t envision international businesses? The Dutch and British East India companies were founded at the beginning of the 1600s. That, plus the term “emoluments” is another example of the Constitution being a terribly written document. How about calling it the Profits Clause instead? Too clear?

    Dave Pinsen

    June 13, 2017 at EST am

    • It also doesn’t say who has the authority to determine what is and isn’t and emolument and what if any punishment there should be.

      Magnavox

      June 13, 2017 at EST am

    • The slave trade was an international business. And yes, the Constitution is badly written. It actually wasn’t written, it was composed, by radically opposing personalities, Jefferson, Madison, Paine, and Adams. I’m going to guess that the stupid parts were written by Jefferson.

      gothamette

      June 13, 2017 at EST pm

      • If this country weren’t so pozzed already by post-1965 immigration, a new constitutional convention to write one from scratch would make sense. Too bad the Greatest Generation didn’t think of doing that pre-1965.

        Dave Pinsen

        June 13, 2017 at EST pm

      • Well, I’m glad you blamed the pozzedness on post 1965 immigration. I blame it on being rich, fat and lazy from so much peace and being on top so long. I just hope I’m dead when the inevitable herd thinning happens.

        gothamette

        June 14, 2017 at EST pm

      • Of the men you listed only Madison was even in the room when the Constitution was drafted.

        Richard

        June 13, 2017 at EST pm

      • Source, please. (Mine is my failing brain from old HS textbooks.)

        gothamette

        June 14, 2017 at EST pm

    • Jefferson, Madison, Paine, and Adams.

      Ahem.

      The Undiscovered Jew

      June 13, 2017 at EST pm

  8. Everyone knows that Mueller is a friend of Comey, so that’s a good point for the Trump side. And now, Trump’s lawyer have found many instances where the same NYT “journalists” have leaked info from top FBI officials alias Comey. They should be able to provoke an investigation on all Comey activities and identify the leaks. Maybe the knife can be turned.

    Bruno from Paris

    June 13, 2017 at EST am

  9. Harvard analysis about tones of coverage of Trump by media on the instances were it is not purely factual (30% is fact, 70% is opinion). Fox is the only to be almost balanced (52 negative and 48 positive). In descending negative order you have :

    German TV (Ard) 98%
    CNN 93%
    NBC 93%
    CBS 91%
    NYT 87%
    Financial Times 84%
    Washington post 83%
    BBC 74%
    Wall street journal 70%
    Fox 52%

    In Germany, there is almost no liberty of opinion …

    Bruno from Paris

    June 13, 2017 at EST am

    • There is generally a wider range of opinion in the media in Germany than in America. But on immigration, a key issue for Trump, Germany does not allow much freedom of opinion, true. But Germans almost universally dislike Trump for a simple reason – he continues to antagonize Germany with his nonsense about NATO and car imports. Trump also doesn’t fit easily into the German political spectrum. The sort of German who agrees with Trump about breaking up the EU and cozying up to Russia tends to also be very anti-American and sees Trump as symbolizing American vulgarity and ignorance.

      Peter Akuleyev

      June 13, 2017 at EST am

      • How is the NATO stuff nonsense? Why should America be paying to defend countries like Germany that actually enjoy a substantially higher standard of living than the US? And the car stuff may be nonsense but the 65 billion dollar negative balance of trade with Germany.

        Magnavox

        June 13, 2017 at EST pm

      • *the US has a 65 billion dollar negative…

        Magnavox

        June 13, 2017 at EST pm

    • German TV (Ard) 98%

      What were the 2% of stories that were positive about?

      The Undiscovered Jew

      June 13, 2017 at EST pm

      • “German TV (Ard) 98%

        What were the 2% of stories that were positive about?”

        One imagines that some German TV producers got fired for allowing those to slip through!

        Mike Street Station

        June 14, 2017 at EST am

      • One imagines that some German TV producers got fired for allowing those to slip through!

        Shouldn’t they? They barely missed a perfect record.

        The Undiscovered Jew

        June 14, 2017 at EST pm

  10. ” And also, it’s business-as-usual for politicians to make personal profit from their positions.”

    How is that a defense of Trump? Arrrest Clinton, Gore and Trump. I am fine with that. It does seem to me that Saudis pouring hundreds of thousands of dollars into Trump hotels is a completely new level of corruption, worse than Clinton or Reagan – the two most corrupt administrations in the post-war period. But if we want to be non-partisan by all means go after Obama as well, his speaking fees and lucrative book deals are an embarassment to the country.

    Peter Akuleyev

    June 13, 2017 at EST am

    • Hundreds of thousands of dollars is small change for a billionaire. $2 billion was dumped into the Clinton Foundation, and must of that because the donors thought they were buying influence.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 13, 2017 at EST am

      • The country has an incredible amount of legal corruption and influence peddling. That’s not good, although it goes without saying that Democrats are much better on the issue.

        That being said we should also be especially weary of new forms of it, whether it be the Clinton foundation or Trump’s business empire.

        Magnavox

        June 13, 2017 at EST am

      • The voters chose to elect a multi-billionaire who owns a huge business empire. The Constitution doesn’t say that a billionaire who owns a huge business empire is ineligible to be President. And I personally don’t believe that this makes Trump more easily corruptible than anyone else. Just the opposite, his great wealth makes him immune from monetary incentives that would be much more tantalizing to less wealthy politicians.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 13, 2017 at EST pm

      • When Christopher Wray is confirmed as FBI Director we can finally get the investigation into the Clinton Foundation that Comey never allowed. Charles Ortel is the expert on this but he believes that the Clinton Foundation is not only the biggest charity fraud case ever but if you look at the entire panoply of Clinton Foundation entities and all the monies given by other foundations (Gates Foundation, etc) and foreign governments the numbers likely reach into the hundreds of billions.

        Andrew E.

        June 13, 2017 at EST am

      • And I personally don’t believe that this makes Trump more easily corruptible than anyone else. Just the opposite, his great wealth makes him immune from monetary incentives that would be much more tantalizing to less wealthy politicians.

        Just like all of his money meant he wasn’t tempted to open up a scam real estate school and saturate the airwaves with low rent ads and infomercials for it?

        Magnavox

        June 13, 2017 at EST pm

      • The country has an incredible amount of legal corruption and influence peddling. That’s not good,

        Very true.

        although it goes without saying that Democrats are much better on the issue.

        baloney

        That being said we should also be especially weary of new forms of it, whether it be the Clinton foundation or Trump’s business empire.

        False equivalency. Clinton’s foundation was shameless bribery and possibly treason. While I’m not aware of any wrongdoing by Trump involving his businesses. I mean, if the emoluments clause is the best they’ve got then they’ve got nothing. To even compare the two shows what a worm you are.

        destructure

        June 13, 2017 at EST pm

      • The country has an incredible amount of legal corruption and influence peddling. That’s not good,

        Very true.

        although it goes without saying that Democrats are much better on the issue.

        baloney

        That being said we should also be especially weary of new forms of it, whether it be the Clinton foundation or Trump’s business empire.

        False equivalency. Clinton’s foundation was shameless bribery and possibly treason. While I’m not aware of any wrongdoing by Trump involving his businesses. I mean, if the emoluments clause is the best they’ve got then they’ve got nothing. To even compare the two shows what a worm you are.

        destructure

        June 13, 2017 at EST pm

      • That “scam real estate school” was completely legal. Trump has been in business nearly 50 years and never been charged with a crime. If he was a crook he would have been charged with something by now.

        destructure

        June 13, 2017 at EST pm

      • False equivalency. Clinton’s foundation was shameless bribery and possibly treason. While I’m not aware of any wrongdoing by Trump involving his businesses. I mean, if the emoluments clause is the best they’ve got then they’ve got nothing. To even compare the two shows what a worm you are.

        Do you have any basis for saying that , preferably from credible sources?

        Magnavox

        June 14, 2017 at EST am

  11. Mueller or those close to him have reportedly said he’ll wrap up the investigation in three months. Trump should set that as Mueller’s deadline. That way, Trump isn’t firing Mueller. The investigation simply expires on a certain date. Allow another month for the Mueller to issue his findings to Congress or the Justice Department.

    Mark Caplan

    June 13, 2017 at EST pm

  12. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/multimillionaire-oxford-don-trampled-to-death-by-cattle-in-sussex-30x9g70vr

    The perfect LOTB news story, combining wealth, status, elite academic credentials, and death by cows.

    Anon1

    June 13, 2017 at EST pm

    • Wow!

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 13, 2017 at EST pm

    • Those cows have been reading your blog.

      The Undiscovered Jew

      June 13, 2017 at EST pm

      • As JS might say “No way. Cows are notoriously prole and care about nothing more than frivolous consumption.”

        As Jesse might say: “Why do those cows constantly need to be tended to? Any cow who can’t raise himself should just be eliminated. Then only the genetically superior cows will exist.”

        As E. Rekshun might say: “I invested wisely and retired at 45. Now I own a cow farm and get my milk fresh every morning.”

        As Maryk would say: “One thing good about “cow posts” is that they at least get our focus on LOTB away from the guidos in Staten Island!”

        New topic posted by Lion on his blog the next day:

        “Cow herd invades bar full of guidos in Staten Island……”

        It’s first post is from Maryk: “I spoke too soon, didn’t I?”

        Maryk

        July 5, 2017 at EST pm

    • Until I saw cows in person I never realized how enormous they are. They’re like tanks.

      Richard

      June 14, 2017 at EST am

  13. O/T: Video games and the future of work…this time from a libertarian perspective.

    http://reason.com/archives/2017/06/13/young-men-are-playing-video-ga

    Probably the best of the ‘video games and unemployed men’ article yet. This one by a Reason Mag editor.

    Simba of the Blogosphere

    June 14, 2017 at EST am

  14. Hated by
    (A) muslims who hate our freedoms and are crazy
    (B) militia mountain types
    (C) panamians
    (D) north koreans
    (E) jews

    Can t figure it out. Nope. Still baffling. Just cant figure out who hates trump the most

    The Philosopher

    June 14, 2017 at EST pm

  15. The Emoluments Clause has never been litigated. The critical question is does it apply to elected officials? There are arguments on both sides. George Washington, for example, didn’t believe the Emoluments Clause applied to presidents. https://wp.me/p8LJUj-5o

    As for standing, businesses affected by the loss of business from foreign governments have a better claim for standing; however, the states may have a claim of standing. DC, may be stuck with greater costs from the added business at Trump properties, especially when a member of the Trump family visits.

    jonathanufi

    July 5, 2017 at EST pm

  16. The legal system is pretty much a farce throughout the west. Who the fuck cares what “emolument” means. At this point it’d be cheaper and make more sense if people just hired mercenaries to try and kill each other. Instead we have to pretend that spending hundreds of millions on dying newspapers makes more sense.

    bobbybobbob

    July 5, 2017 at EST pm


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