Lion of the Blogosphere

Haredi, ultra-Orthodox, Modern Orthodox, Hasidic, what’s the difference?

with 101 comments

Once upon a time, there was only Orthodox Judaism in the world.

Hasidic Judaism is an offshoot of Orthodox Judaism that arose in Eastern Europe in the 1700s. Originally it was sort of a reform movement. They have their own worship practices, beliefs, and religious leadership that is now somewhat independent of standard Orthodox Judaism.

There later arose less observant sects of Judaism, mainly Reform and then Conservative. Conservative Judaism is dying out, but it used to serve as a bridge for Jewish immigrants who wanted to be more secular but were scared off by the totally different and less strict Reform Judaism. It seemed too Christian, and Christianity was scary for Jews. That role of Conservatism in America is what now leads to its lack of relevance, because few Conservative congregants understand the doctrines of Conservatism which is actually more strictly religious than most realize. My grandfather was a true believer in Conservative Judiasm, but he is dead, and he would be 107 if he were alive today, so that goes to show you the problem; the few who understood Conservatism have died off.

Conservative Judaism is more prole than Reform Judaism. Many Conservative Jews stay with their Conservative temples because they can’t afford the much higher membership fees of Reform temples.

In Israel, they use the term Haredi for those Jews who reject the modern world and cut themselves off from it. All Hasidic sects are Haredi, plus there are non-Hasidic but Haredi Orthodox. My family called them ultra-Orthodox, tending to mix Hasidim into that description as well, and that’s a term that’s well understood among Jews in the United States.

When it comes to black hats, the Hasidim wear hats unique to their sect, while the non-Hasidic ultra-Orthodox wear regular black fedoras.

Modern Orthodox believe in strict adherence to the Torah which they believe is the literal word of God, but they also believe that within reason they can dress sort-of normally and have regular jobs in secular America. Jared Kushner and Ivanka seem to be a less-strict sort of modern Orthodox than the kind I’m used to on Staten Island. They seem more Conservative to me than Orthodox.

Kiryas Joel in Monroe, New York is Hasidic. Lakewood, New Jersey is ultra-Orthodox. In Boro Park, Brooklyn, the ultra-Orthodox and Hasidim mix together, but Williamsburg Brooklyn is strictly Hasidic.

Hope this helps. (And I could be wrong about some of this, it’s not like I’m an expert on this subject.)

Because I have a lot of racist anti-Semitic readers, they want to know if Jews are white. Well, if you go visit Williamsburg, Brooklyn, you will see a lot of extreme pale-skinned people dressed up in black and white. Although they all look sort of inbred, so it’s not the most pleasant display of extreme whiteness.

You will see a lot of blonde-haired girls in Williamsburg, but once they get married (which is generally as soon as they turn 18), they shave off their blonde hair and put on a dark-haired wig, so the blondeness of the Hasidim is hidden from secular eyes.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

May 13, 2018 at EDT am

Posted in Religion

101 Responses

Subscribe to comments with RSS.

  1. Here’s an anecdote floating around:

    Hasidics in Williamsburg look very much like White Gentiles, because they all hail from Hungary coming from the Satmar sect, whose members were converts to Judaism. And yes, this is ancedote, because the Satmars are by far the most “White” looking of Jews.

    JS

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • No the Satmars are not converts and they look absolutely nothing like ethnic Magyars. Genetics clearly show that Polish/Russian/Romanian Jews have more goyish blood than Hungarian Jews.

      I’ve explained this before: the facial deformities widely considered as “Jewish” are only common in Polish/Russian/Romanian Jews. The deformities are over-sized/malformed nose, excessively long face, big ears, over-sized jaw, and just a hard to describe overall inbred look. All of these Jewish deformities are present to varying degrees in inbred backwoods people from all over the world. Adam Driver is a great example.

      Polish/Russian/Romanian Jews are basically a backwoods version of German/Austrian/Hungarian Jews with some Polish and Russian blood mixed in.

      Otis the Sweaty

      May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

      • If there is a great degree of inbreeding amongst Jewish populations how is it that Jews, then, have avoided the signal handicap of consistent and close inbreeding: mental idiocy and retardation? Note, the European Jewish nation in the 19th century (before mass migration and the Holocaust) was a large nation, over 10 million population. There must have been plenty of intermarriage/cross-breeding within this large community. There are other European populations that probably had closer marriage/breeding patterns than the Jewish population: Ireland, Sicily, Iceland, Greece, Switzerland (most Swiss married within their own Cantons), Croats, Serbs, and others. Compared to modern American mating practices, much of pre-20th century Europe was patterned on relatively close-connected marriage/breeding practices.

        Daniel

        May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

      • “If there is a great degree of inbreeding amongst Jewish populations how is it that Jews, then, have avoided the signal handicap of consistent and close inbreeding: mental idiocy and retardation?”

        We were talking specifically about the Satmar Hasidic sect, and we know nothing about their average IQ.

      • Inbreeding? Um, no. Are the Norwegians inbred? They now number 5 million but were only about 200k in 1800. I don’t see the inbreeding. The Icelanders are actually and physically all related. They even have an app for finding out how closely related they are when they meet someone new. Not if, but how close. The fact that they are all related is a given. Do you ever hear people calling Norwegians or Icelanders or Japanese inbred, even though they most certainly are. The Jews aren’t marrying first cousins like the Pakistanis, etc. The whole inbred things sounds ridiculous, even absurd.

        not too late

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • What you are describing, in terms of phenotype (“deformities”), is a higher percentage of Neanderthal admixture (probably anywhere from .1-2% more of the total genome on average). A causal study of Neanderthal reconstructions and skulls, as well as our most modern studies on human genetics and out-breeding with hominids, will tell you that.

        In addition, it is easy to see such features, though toned down, in non-Jews of certain ethnicities whose majority haplotypes are most closely related to the “Jewish” (Anatolian, Arabic, etc) J1 and J2 haplotypes. Look to the place in the genetic tree where the haplotypes branched off. What you will see is roughly two pairs of groups. One migrated closer to Cro-Magnon’s locus, further diluting Neanderthal genes from previous mixing events. One pair stayed closer to their origin.

        Some Greeks and Italians are practically indistinguishable from what someone might deem to be a commonly “Jewish” phenotype. See Greek comedian Dimitri Martin, for example, or an average Italian man. What this means is that you aren’t looking at a specifically Jewish phenotype, endemic to inbreeding behavior, but instead at a broader result stemming from mixing events between Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal. Though, most Europeans have anywhere from .5-2% total Neanderthal genetics. What one should realize is that given this percentage, even .5% more Neanderthal genes is a large difference that will likely result in a different phenotype.

        Most “White” people are mixed with a specific variety of Neanderthal that had a historical locus (whether by evolution or migration) in the Caucus. Therefore, it makes sense that human groups that most recently originated from that surrounding region will have at least a slightly higher percentage of Neanderthal genetics.

        Asians have more Neanderthal genetics that White people, on average, to include from a non-Neanderthal hominid as well.

        Sub-Saharan Africans have no Neanderthal genetics, as Neanderthal lived in Eurasia. That’s no to say that they are unmixed.

        Sam

        May 15, 2018 at EDT pm

    • The context of this anecdote is to present a group that one isn’t comfortable with as not being Jewish. Satmar sees the State of Israel as the source of all evil that has befallen the Jewish nation in the last 150 years. Some don’t just engage them in an ideological argument, but to be more convincing prefer to ascribe to them fictitious Gentile origins. Prior to the partition of India there were Indian Muslims, who opposed the establishment of Pakistan on the grounds that Indian Muslims weren’t pure enough to establish an Islamic state. History has proven them right so far. Satmar argument is different: only the Messiah may establish a Jewish State.

      I’ve heard this story from a Liubavitcher, who further claimed that Satmar don’t have Kohanim and since all Jewish diasporas have them, they must be descendants of converts. I’ve known Satmar Kohanim, so the claim is bogus. There were 800,000 Jews in Hungary before the war and Satmar movement is about 100 years old so the whole story is a fiction.

      Jews often panic and rush to disassociate themselves from other Jews when they feel threatened by the Gentile reaction. If a group of orthodox Jews is vociferously opposed to the Jewish state, that may undermine it’s legitimacy in the eyes of the Gentiles. Jews suffer from insecurity.

      Yakov

      May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

      • Even if true, it’s a Biblical prohibition to shame a convert or remind him of his Gentile origin. To do so intentionally is a Biblical transgression.

        Yakov

        May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • Kiryas Joel is apparently statistically the poorest place in America:

      Seventy percent of households below the poverty line, high welfare use… Kind of opposite to the stereotype of Jewish financial power.

      Is this a genetically different group from the Ashkenazim, or is the lack of financial success due to social isolation and rejection of the modern world?

      Too bad they can’t seem to combine financial success and high fertility.

      Dan

      May 14, 2018 at EDT am

  2. Lion, what prompted this post?

    Yakov

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

  3. “Because I have a lot of racist anti-Semitic readers, they want to know if Jews are white.”

    Jews — the other white meat.

    destructure

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • Michael Rockefeller could not be reached for comment.

      snorlaxwp

      May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • Clever.

      gothamette

      May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • lol

      not too late

      May 14, 2018 at EDT am

  4. In Israel the hasidi and non hasidi sects used to argue who has the bigger population and should get the leader position in the Ashkenazi Knesset haredi party. Since they do not believe in democracy, primary elections cannot be used to decide it. I think that it is about 53-47 for hasidim. But it includes Chabad hasidi group which is a bit different from other hasidi sects. Also Haredi oriental Jews which are about another 20% of haredi world are not considered hasidi or non-hasidi but they feel much closer to the non hasidi sect.

    תמריץ

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

  5. There’s really no such thing as “Orthodox” Judaism, there are only varieties of Judaisms practiced round the world, all based on strict observance of Torah.

    Orthodox only came into being in the 18th century when Jews in Germany began breaking away. Most of their grandchildren became Lutheran converts. So that worked out well.

    gothamette

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

  6. And Sephardim? Photo from NPR program on crypto-Jews in Texas.

    Curle

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

  7. Israelis have a word for people like Jared Kushner: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:datlash

    IHTG

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • ‘Orthodox light’ is the word you are looking for.

      Trump actually did it! Amazing!

      Yakov

      May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

  8. Why do Hasidic women shave off their hair and thereafter wear wigs? What is the religious justification?

    PV van der Byl

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • The sotah has her hair uncovered when she’s accused, so the theory is a decent married woman will have her hair covered. However the passage can also be interpreted as having her hair undone/ unbraided.

      Not all women use wigs, some use snoods or scarves.

      toomanymice

      May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

      • It may sound heretical of me to say, but if a woman’s gonna cover her hair, do the hijab. Hijab can be very pretty. I don’t think the US/West should be letting in Muslims, just saying. Orthodox/Hasidic wigs look ridiculous to me.

        Not to mention the cost. I think Yakov mentioned that the wigs cost tons. You can get a gorgeous silk scarf for $75.

        gothamette

        May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

      • “Orthodox/Hasidic wigs look ridiculous to me.”

        Me too.

      • Look at these, pure silk for $34.95. Of course you can’t look at the woman’s face. Not modest.

        https://shukronline.com/luxury-100-silk-hijab.html

        gothamette

        May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

      • That is a pretty weird shopping site.

      • But why do they shave their heads?

        Yakov

        May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

      • Yes I am curious why they don’t just wear something like the Muslim hijab? Perhaps the custom developed long ago?

        Frau Katze

        May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

      • It’s worth mentioning that until relatively recently many Christian women wore some type of head covering when they were in the sanctuary of the church. It’s based on several New Testament passages.

        Roman Catholics dropped this fairly recently.

        Some Orthodox Christians insist on a head covering in the sanctuary. It doesn’t have to cover every strand of hair, it’s more symbolic. For example, in Russia a supply of suitable coverings are kept for any female visitors who don’t have one.

        In the Orthodox Church in America (and Canada) it’s optional. But the US and Canada also have all sorts of Orthodox churches for the various ethnicities. So it’s kind of mixed.

        Oddly enough, most fundamentalist sects don’t care at all, no one wears them.

        Frau Katze

        May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

      • Back in the day all women covered their heads. Look at all the art from antiquity with women from all different cultures with head coverings. I think that the scarves generally are cheaper than hats. If poor, one could just make her own. Also, It may have been cooler during certain eras which could also influence it.

        not too late

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • Most married Hasidic women do not shave their heads, AFAIK.

        Even wearing a wig isn’t universal-many just wear a head cover of some sort. There are authoritative opinions that wearing a wig is forbidden-see here, for instance: https://youtu.be/78rzu-jdo80

        The ones that do shave their heads have different explanations for this custom-I’ve heard that it’s to ensure that their monthly immersion in the mikvah is kosher (since women immerse at night, and every part of the body must be immersed, if their heads are shaved, there is no concern that their hair will float on the surface and thus invalidate the immersion, causing massive problems.) I’ve also heard that the custom emerged in areas where pogroms and rape were constant concerns, and that a woman with a shaved head would not be attractive to rapists.

        Ashkenazim and Satmar specifically look very European on average, for various reasons-there was a constant flow of converts throughout our stay in Europe. I’ve read estimates of 500 per year. Assuming adaptive advantage, you’d see some genes making sweeps. The women, who put a premium on their physical appearance, look better on the whole than the average European gentile ones around them. The men look more or less like you’d expect if you took a section of European males with an average IQ of 115 and had them grow beards. People who have a vibrant inner life often do not take up physical pursuits unless they have a compelling reason (military service, physical labor, a family tradition, etc.)

        The interesting thing is that Orthodox Jews in the Diaspora have a sort of masculinity which has very little in common with the concept as it is parsed by the gentiles. By which I mean that you can not mistake them, in their appearance and manneurisms, for women, but they do not act like gentile males, either.

        In Israel, the realities of life make things different.

        BaruchK

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • My sense of Orthodox Judaism is, compared to other strict religious traditions, there’s much heavier focus on “the letter of the law”.

        As a kid, I used to hang out at the mall, and some Saturdays I’d hang with this Orthodox kid who came from money, liked to buy things. But apparently there’s some rule about not making purchases on the Sabbath. So he’d hand me some money and say, “Boy, it would be nice if someone would gift me that shirt.” Followed the letter of the law, but still spent the Sabbath engaged in an utterly materialistic spending spree, which was presumably what the original law was designed to forbid.

        These wigs strike me the same way. A hijab makes sense. It provides modesty — a woman looks like a shapeless mass on the streets, while only her husband and family can see her in all her feminine glory (such as it is).

        With the wig, an Orthodox woman takes it off at home and quite likely looks worse for her husband than she does for men out in the streets, but she is following the letter of some law designed to provide modesty, while mostly violating its spirit. I have to think the wig is an aesthetic choice — they think it looks better, plus it blends in better with gentiles, since many will fail to notice it’s not real.

        Wency

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • “since many will fail to notice it’s not real.”

        Once you know that they wear wigs, they stick out like a sore thumb, and look ridiculous.

      • [That is a pretty weird shopping site.]

        Shukr has gorgeous clothes and scarves. I’ve bought their tunics and wear them as knee length ‘dresses’ with boots. They have a cadre of non muslim customers, including orthodox jews. In fact when the upheaval in syria began I admit my first thought was, I hope shukr doesn’t go out of business! (their clothes are made in damascus). Kind of pricey though.

        My winter coat is from shukr (knee length wool) and they have beautiful long sweaters and cardigans. Stuff lasts forever- I have 8+ yr old garments that still look brand new.

        toomanymice

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • frau, it’s rare to see women cover their hair in orthodox church- maybe an occasional old lady. Even in old calendarist churches you don’t see head coverings. What you do see in OCs is people dress formally, 90% of men in suit and tie even in summer, women wear dresses or pantsuit. Lots of black clothing for some reason.

        Head covering is more common in russia or so I’m told. Funny story, someone vacationing in a russian resort town told me they saw a woman in flip flops and a bikini cover her head with a scarf before entering the sanctuary. LOL.

        toomanymice

        May 14, 2018 at EDT pm

      • @toomanymice I know about something Orthodox Christians, (at least locally). I converted from a liberal Protestant church in 2005. Now I picked one that is not associated with any particular ethnicity, part of the Orthodox Church in America (it includes Canada, where I live). I expected to be an outlier as a convert, but about half the congregation are converts from liberal Protestant churches. (The latter have gone full out loony left lately, in the US too.)

        Women wearing a head covering are in the minority, but there are still quite a few.

        Refugees from places like the United Church of Canada (they have one minister who is an admitted atheist) are a bit disoriented by this craziness and they may be wearing them just to get as far away as they can from places like UCC.

        An older, ethnic based church might be different.

        Frau Katze

        May 15, 2018 at EDT am

      • >My sense of Orthodox Judaism is, compared to other strict religious traditions, there’s much heavier focus on “the letter of the law”.

        That’s what makes it the Law instead of some hippie handwaving.

        >As a kid, I used to hang out at the mall, and some Saturdays I’d hang with this Orthodox kid who came from money, liked to buy things. But apparently there’s some rule about not making purchases on the Sabbath. So he’d hand me some money and say, “Boy, it would be nice if someone would gift me that shirt.”

        There were a bunch of laws he was breaking by doing that, too.

        BaruchK

        May 15, 2018 at EDT am

    • Almost all women of all religious backgrounds shave off their hair. Oh wait, you mean head hair.

      Peter

      ironrailsironweights

      May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • @too many,

      “Shukr has gorgeous clothes and scarves. I’ve bought their tunics and wear them as knee length ‘dresses’ with boots.”

      You know about it? I just googled & got them randomly. How funny you use them.

      @Frau Katze,

      In some sects the women do just wear a scarf, but it looks different from hijab. They do a sort of roll thingie over the crown of the head. Looks kind of nice…

      But I’ll make a wild prediction here. In 100 years, most women, by choice, will be wearing a form of hijab.

      gothamette

      May 14, 2018 at EDT pm

  9. [Once upon a time, there was only Orthodox Judaism in the world.]

    Not really, there have always been differing sects and branches of judiasm. In fact it was conflicts between such groups that arguably fomented jesus’ rise. And christianity in its first 100 years or so was considered a jewish sect. There’s a good book about this called James the Brother of Jesus.

    You forgot to mention karaites, neturei karta, samaritans and sephards. I’ve often wondered if Sabbatai Zvi somehow impacted what eventually became known as chasdism. The jewish false messiahs are really fascinating.

    Of course there is the theory that the messiah is present in every generation but can only come forward under certain circumstances. So those messiahs were not necessarily false, just ill timed. This is what jesus was referring to when he kept cursing the fig tree for not being ripe, the fig tree being israel and unripe (not ready) for the messiah.

    toomanymice

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • What I meant was, the current Reform/Conservative/Orthodox is completely an artifact of the Enlightenment.

      gothamette

      May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • ‘I’ve often wondered if Sabbatai Zvi somehow impacted what eventually became known as chasdism.’

      In my opinion many early Chassidic leaders were clandestine Shabbateans.

      For a Gentile you know a lot about Jews. I’m impressed.

      Yakov

      May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • During my post 9/11 studying of what might have caused it, I was reading (online) the Jerusalem Post (while Bret Stephens was the editor.). I remember the odd article about the (very small) number of Samaritans.

      I was always a bit confused by the various different Jewish traditions. I knew about the Orthodox/ Conservative/ Reform groups of course. I quickly learned about the Haredi.

      One thing confused me: they are dressed for a cold climate, presumably from Europe. It must be extremely hot to dress that way in Israel. It’s a custom, not scriptural, if I understand correctly. I don’t really understand why they don’t wear something more suitable for the climate.

      Frau Katze

      May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • Because of the social identity that was formed in the struggle to survive the onslaught of modernity. The struggle still continues today.

        Yakov

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • According to Jewish law, if some custom becomes widely accepted, it becomes law.

        Yoav

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

  10. “Many Conservative Jews stay with their Conservative temples because they can’t afford the much higher membership fees of Reform temples.”

    Temples have membership fees? That’s wild. Churches just pass a collection plate around every Sunday.

    Rosenmops

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • Synagogues do not have weekly collections.

      Peter

      ironrailsironweights

      May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • Holy stereotypes, Batman.

      In many European countries (and formerly all) the government collects a church tax which is used to finance the state church and frequently other denominations and Jewish congregations as well. In practice this contributes to secularization since (nowadays anyway) you can usually get out of paying it by saying you aren’t religious.

      snorlaxwp

      May 14, 2018 at EDT am

    • I doubt a church can be maintained by passing a collection plate. People should pay for their religious institutions. There was a yearly Temple tax and sacrifices aren’t cheap either. G-d doesn’t like cheapskates.

      Yakov

      May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • But why are Conservative fees lower than Reform?

        Frau Katze

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • The US is filled with churches, mostly of the evangelical variety, staffed by barely literate males who’ve picked up a bit of the Bible and who don’t like hard work operating out of unused gymnasiums and other sundry places. That’s not intended as a swipe at evangelicals, but it’s true.

        Curle

        May 14, 2018 at EDT pm

      • I thought those prole churches were mostly unmarried women with children.

      • “I thought those prole churches were mostly unmarried women with children.”

        I was referring to the pastors. I’ve known two pretty well. Both had fake, or effectively fake, degrees. These churches come and go.

        Curle

        May 14, 2018 at EDT pm

      • “But why are Conservative fees lower than Reform”?

        At the risk of speaking out of school, its axiomatic that being liberal is always more expensive, exclusive due to expense and required image / culture, and thus higher social status in secular society. All of that is part of a large interlocking structure.

        Sam

        May 15, 2018 at EDT pm

      • Conservative temples are more humble buildings in less expensive neighborhoods.

      • Conservative temples are found in wealthy sections of Manhattan and tend to be medium size. Contrast them to the small synagogues of the Lower East Side, that still function for the prolier Jews who live in that neighborhood. One can make a case that they are equally if not more lavish than the Reform temples.

        JS

        May 15, 2018 at EDT pm

      • “At the risk of speaking out of school, its axiomatic that being liberal is always more expensive, exclusive due to expense and required image / culture, and thus higher social status in secular society”

        Not in Manhattan, where Conservative Synagogues are a stones throw away from Reform Synagogues in certain neighborhoods. The Upper West Side is a good example.

        JS

        May 15, 2018 at EDT pm

    • ‘Temples have membership fees? That’s wild.’

      This makes imminent sense. Paying a membership fee makes you part of the congregation and gives you a right to vote. This is a relatively small amount though. There are various other opportunities to contribute through the year.

      Yakov

      May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • There are all kinds of fees:
        buying seats on special days, paying to have a candle lit in someones honor, paying to have you name put in place (usually a donation), etc.

        Yoav

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • Membership entails seats for you and your family.

        Yakov

        May 14, 2018 at EDT pm

      • To what degree, if any, do high membership costs operate as a barrier to low value converts or retention of low value members? I’ve heard Mormonism described this way, that the burdens of membership operate to thin out the deadbeats.

        Curle

        May 14, 2018 at EDT pm

      • I’m not aware of such practices. In orthodox non-chassidic synagogues the membership is very reasonable. Nobody will stop a non-member from attending. Just on crowded days there may not be a seat available. I pay $50 a year for my seat, $100-150 for the privilege of supplying tea and coffee. This is auctioned off and that’s the range where I usually get it. Tea, coffee and sugar for the year, which isn’t a lot either. I don’t know how much it costs me though.

        Yakov

        May 14, 2018 at EDT pm

      • And obviously various charity appeals and a donation of $18 when getting a blessing over the reading of the weekly portion. It’s not an obligation to donate, but it’s a custom.

        Yakov

        May 14, 2018 at EDT pm

      • Checked with my son-in-law, who belongs to a Chassidic congregation of 800 members. He pays $500 a year for two seats. This is a very normal price.

        Yakov

        May 16, 2018 at EDT am

    • You are forgetting that Christianity is a proselytizing religion, unlike Judaism, that is specific to one group of people. It’s hard for Christians to have a feel for what it would be like to have a specific religion like this.

      If you’re going to try to gain new members you have to accept that some of them may not have much in the way of financial resources.

      Frau Katze

      May 15, 2018 at EDT am

  11. >>Well, if you go visit Williamsburg, Brooklyn, you will see a lot of extreme pale-skinned people dressed up in black and white. Although they all look sort of inbred, so it’s not the most pleasant display of extreme whiteness.<<

    The enervated appearance of Hasidic men is nothing that a regular program of weightlifting couldn't drastically improve. Hasidic men look soft because other than walking they never do any exercise and have never done any in their entire lives. I know that there is not a lot of money to be made off the Hasidic community but it would be good if some entrepreneur established a chain of weight lifting gyms (sex segregated, of course) in Hasidic/Orthodox communities. The gym could have gentle prayers played over the sound system, with Torah readings on the walls instead of mirrors (all those mirrors violate Torah. They glorify man and not God). Let's include a sauna/steam room, barbershop, Kosher cafe. Such a facility would do wonders for the men in the community. There should also be gyms for women too, with childcare facilities. The Romans understood how important the culture of physical fitness was to civic happiness and cohesion. The great baths of Caracella were open to all Romans – slaves as well as free men/women. Little things could have a great impact on life.

    Daniel

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • ‘I know that there is not a lot of money to be made off the Hasidic community but it would be good if some entrepreneur established a chain of weight lifting gyms (sex segregated, of course) in Hasidic/Orthodox communities.’

      There are two such places in Boro Park, none in Williamsburg. People, who avoid looking in the mirror, will not come anyway. In many of these communities there is an ideological opposition to physical culture and to freely mixing with strangers and that includes other orthodox Jews. There used to be a good Kosher Gym in Flatbush that I was a member of, but the owner moved to Israel and the business went belly up. The big problem facing any Jewish gym is that there are exclusively women facilities all over the place, so it’s not going to attract a large part of the female population. I wish someone would bring back that kosher gym, I would go back to it anytime. That was the best place for a Jew. When they moved to a larger place, they had separate floors, instead of separate hours, for men and women. That was apartheid at its best: separate but equal.

      Incidentally, there is tons of money to be made off the Hassidic community, if you have the right product like expensive baby carriages, for example.

      Yakov

      May 15, 2018 at EDT am

      • That sounds good, and I’m jealous that you can likely pay a fair price to exercise among people similar to yourself.

        In secular society, there is a strict pricing tier for gyms that implies who you will be working out with. If I go to the $10 gym, I may be the only White person there. If I go to the $90 gym (or even the $60 gym), there will only be White people there.

        Sam

        May 15, 2018 at EDT pm

  12. Lion, this is for you. Israel just won the Eurovision

    Now this is the song that had won in 1978. What a difference 40 years make.

    Yakov

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • I thought you would appreciate a victory for body positivism and feminism. What’s really amazing though is that when I was 12 and in the summer camp a plum 14 year girl sang a song with similar content and many kids, including myself, totally lost our heads.

      Yakov

      May 14, 2018 at EDT am

    • I’m not surprised that crap won this year, but I had no idea Eurovision was so old. I always assumed it was created in 2002 or something.

      Wency

      May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • The artistic level of Eurovision is generally low, it’s the social angle that’s interesting. This girl has electrifying energy. The judges gave her the 5th place, but the viewers’ votes propelled her to the top. She connects with the audience. This is the world that we are living in. Now the issues of body positivism, bullying, feminism and fitting is what her song is about.

        Yakov

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

  13. Even Hasidic Jews differ depending on groups. The Lubavitcher Jews tend to be friendly and open, and through Chabad they attempt to get secular Jews to be more religious (through friendly persuasion and role modeling). They will explain their practices and encourage interaction with Jews who are not as religious. They are generally pleasant to non-Jews and are willing to engage as long as it doesn’t impinge on their religious practice.

    The Satmare are a different story—they are some tough customers who consider any Jews who are less religious than they are to be goys and avoid contact with non-Satmars. They can be downright hostile to anyone they consider outsiders, whether Jewish or Gentile.

    LBD

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

    • “The Lubavitcher Jews tend to be friendly and open, and through Chabad they attempt to get secular Jews to be more religious (through friendly persuasion and role modeling).”

      They believe they can hasten the coming of the Messiah by doing that.

      • I was raised Catholic where messianism meant jesus’ Message: the metaphoric kingdom of God adherents belong to in their inner lives, not a conqueror the other Jewish cults at that time believed in.
        So what role do the various Hasidic groups envision for the messiah besides the legitimization of Israel?

        Newyorker

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • There is no clear universal Jewish dogma of what a Messiah is and what he is going to accomplish. You are better off just goggling for the information. Check out rationalist approach of Rambam in the introduction to the 10th chapter of Sanhedrin. Should be available on the web in English.

        Yakov

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • According to the Lubavitcher rabbi the Messiah should show us that there is no differation between the creation and god.
        It is a very mystical system which truefully say is a little bit lost by last generation.

        Yd

        May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • There is a very clear explanation of who the Messiah will be and what he will do in Maimonides’ Mishne Torah, here:

        https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188356/jewish/Melachim-uMilchamot-Chapter-11.htm

        BaruchK

        May 15, 2018 at EDT am

      • I predict that those waiting for the Messiah to come are going to have to wait a really long time, like forever.

      • @Baruchk
        Yes, very clear, but not the only explanation and not the one accepted by the majority of the orthodoxy today. And, as Rambam himself notes, nobody realy knows because there is no clear tradition and the opinions are based on speculative interpretations.

        @Lion
        Possible. There is an opinion in the Talmud that there will be no future Messiah. You may look at it as an expression of human desire for a perfect world that humanity fails to create with its own efforts. It will always be strived for, but never achieved. Many religions believe in a supernatural redemption at the end of days. There us a lot to be said about it, but I gotta move my van and get going.

        Yakov

        May 15, 2018 at EDT am

      • >Yes, very clear, but not the only explanation and not the one accepted by the majority of the orthodoxy today.

        Which authoritative sources disagree with him?

        I haven’t seen any alternatives that were rationally feasible. And even more mystically oriented figures often rely on the Rambam-the Lubavitcher Rebbe instituted the daily study of the Mishne Torah, presumably for the Laws of Kings and Wars, Rebbe Nahman said that in the Messianic era, the halacha would follow the Rambam, etc.

        >I predict that those waiting for the Messiah to come are going to have to wait a really long time

        I recommend you read Maimonides’ description of who the Messiah will be and what he will do, and then ask yourself which part is farfetched. By farfetched, I mean, more farfetched than, say, predicting the return of Jews to our Land from all the diasporas, from America to Yemen to Russia, several centuries ago.)

        BaruchK

        May 15, 2018 at EDT am

      • @Baruchk
        There are three opinions in the Talmud :
        1. The Messiah will not come.
        2. Coming of the Messiah is a natural event.
        3. Coming of the Messiah is a miraculous event if the words of the sages describing it as such are to be taken literally.

        Lubavitch and Satmar, like most of the orthodoxy, believe that the Messiah will perform miracles, that the physical nature of the world will change and that the 3rd Temple will descend from haven. Rambam, believes that the only difference between the world as we know it and the times of the Messiah is that Israel will not be subjugated by the nations and that the Messiah will bring the age of peace and Divine knowledge to the world by the greatness if his personality. The Temple will be build in the same way as the previous ones. Description of the Messianic miracles are to be understood allegorically. Nothing supernatural will happen. Rambam being the greatest legal authority, they feel a need to reconcile his views with the mystical teaching. I don’t see how it’s possible. Rambam himself clearly states that its impossible to know the exact course of events that will unfold and that these things are in the realm of speculation and aren’t important part of the Jewish faith.

        Yakov

        May 15, 2018 at EDT pm

      • >Rambam, believes that the only difference between the world as we know it and the times of the Messiah is that Israel will not be subjugated by the nations and that the Messiah will bring the age of peace and Divine knowledge to the world by the greatness if his personality.

        There is more to it.

        The Rambam makes a clear distinction between the Messianic Age, and the World To Come. About the latter, he seems to say in the introduction to Perek Heleq, that it will happen at some unspecified point in the future after the former, and that due to technological progress or something like it, it will not resemble the current world and can only be described allegorically.

        >Rambam himself clearly states that its impossible to know the exact course of events that will unfold and that these things are in the realm of speculation and aren’t important part of the Jewish faith.

        Where does he say this about the Messianic Age?

        BaruchK

        May 16, 2018 at EDT am

      • Maybe Donald Trump is the Messiah?

      • Cyrus was called messiah so Donald Trump can also.

        Lets say that if their is Jewish state after 2000 years, in your place i would be more cautious, Lion.

        Yd

        May 16, 2018 at EDT am

      • Yakov

        May 16, 2018 at EDT am

      • @ baruchk

        The Laws of Wars and Kings:

        12.4 Some of the Sages say that Elijah will come before the coming of the
        Messiah. But regarding all these matters and similar, no one knows how it will
        be until it will be. For these matters were unclear to the Prophets. Even the
        Sages themselves did not have a Tradition regarding these matters and only could attempt to understand the verses. Thus, there were disagreements in these matters. Nevertheless, neither the order that these events will occur nor their details are fundamental to the religion.
        12.5 Thus, a person must never busy himself with the Aggadohs and not dwell on the Midrashim regarding these matters or similar issues. He must not make them dogma. For these do not result in either love (for G-d) nor fear (of
        sin). Similarly, one should not calculate the. Our Sages have said that
        the spirit of those who calculate the Ends will expire. Rather, one is to
        (simply) wait and believe in the principle of this matter, as we have
        explained.

        Yakov

        May 16, 2018 at EDT pm

      • Here, he seems to be discussing the various aggadot, such as Eliyahu Hanavi and other miraculous occurrences, not the Messiah himself.

        BaruchK

        May 17, 2018 at EDT am

  14. As you anticipated here are some extra info which takes into account also communities outside the US. First, I wouldn’t bundle reformists with the rest of them, the reformists are secular Jews, they are liberal humanists and has nothing to do with religion at all, it is just a cultural affiliation club for secular American Jews to keep some of their heritage, that’s why it is not big in Israel where secular people can be just secular and still feel connection to their heritage.

    The common thing of all orthodox Jews is adherence to the Torah commandments as interpreted by the Talmudic scholars and aggregated into the canonical codification of law by Maimonides (Harambam – Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon) and later by Rabbi Yossef Karo in his book “Shulchan Aruch”. The rest is variations and customs but the base is very much the same and it is very important to understand, in 95% of the daily religion practices all orthodox groups adhere to the same code.

    There were many distinctive groups with different practices during the second temple times but once the Jews exiled to the diaspora the orthodox rabbinical way was the standard until the world in general started to become less religious, that’s when movement like the reformists started or people just became secular.

    There are 3 main groups in the ultra orthodox community, Sepharadic or Mizrahi Jews who are all the non ashkenazi Jews, and within the Ashkenazi Jews it is separated to Hassidic and non Hasidic also known as Mitnagdim, which means in Hebrew “opposes” as if to say they oppose the Hassidic movement. The Mitnagdim were the scholar elite and it’s way of studying the Talmud is the common standard in most Jewish religious schools known as Yeshiva, even in the Hassidic ones. The Hassidic movement started because many parole Jews in east Europe were very poor and uneducated, they wanted a bit of a different experience and the Hassidic movement put more stress on the spiritual experience rather than the scholarly way of the Mitnagdim.

    There are also another two smaller less strict groups, the modern orthodox, someone like Ben Shapiro is a good example, those can be from either Hassidic or Mitnagdim family. The other group are national religious who are the ones with the knitted colourful caps, they are less strict and usually very nationalistic, most settlers in Israel are from this group.

    As for conservatives these days, I wouldn’t place them as part of the orthodox community but I do consider them religious unlike the reformists. They seems to be equivalent to the “Mesorati” Jews in Israel which are Jews who believe in the orthodox religion but not really practicing it except for some symbolic rules, like not eating pork, believing in god, going to the orthodox synagogue occasionally and praying that their football team will win, in Israel it consists mostly of Sephardic Jews.

    As for colours and whiteness, sepharadic Jews are not white, at most they are southern Europeans this is pretty clear, however in some ways some of their communities can be more western than many Ashkenazis, like the ones that were formed in west Europe after the inquisition pushed the Jews out of Spain. Most of them though were much more influenced culturally by the Muslim world since they lived in Muslim countries.

    As for Hassidic, there are many different sub sects and I wouldn’t paint them all in one brush, the shaving of the women heads for example is limited only to some extreme sects, most of them don’t do it. There is indeed more slavic blood there and therefore more fair headed people but the majority have dark hair and typical Ashkenazi Jewish look. In that sense the non Hassidic orthodox from the same area are not really different. Their lifestyle of not physical activity and intermarriage does keep some physical traits a bit more than other groups.

    Hashed

    May 13, 2018 at EDT pm

  15. There is argument that one of the Satmer families are of demon origen which had sex relatenship with a wife when her husband went away.
    I will look after their name.

    Yd

    May 14, 2018 at EDT am

    • I found it. They come from vilage which called Chotča in Slovakia.

      Yd

      May 14, 2018 at EDT pm

  16. What is the deal with these people not moving to Israel? Why would they rather live in New York?

    Secular jews in America obviously are cowards and enjoy degeneracy. But what’s up with the orthodox and Hasidics?

    Anon

    May 14, 2018 at EDT am

    • Satmar Hasidim don’t believe that Jews should move to Israel until the Messiah comes.

    • It costs a lot to live their type of orthodox lifestyle. NYC is where the money is.

      Yakov

      May 14, 2018 at EDT am

      • Yakov — there is only thing that I’d agree with you and that NYC is the only place worthy of habitation in America. The rest of the nation is for losers and dumbbells. I only go to California for relaxation and fun, not for long term residence.

        You of course contradict yourself when you say Jews should only engage in productive labor. Jews go into fields where making money is easy and it only requires brain power. And they do this, because Jews tend to be sharper and shrewder than the average gentile.

        America is just a place for smart parasites to suck wealth by exploiting those with lower IQ. It serves no other purpose.

        JS

        May 14, 2018 at EDT pm

      • @JS

        I was doing AC work by a Lutheran pastor in Manhattan. He came from Midwest to open a church to bring young people back to G-d. Very nice family. The pastor and his wife were fine specimen of the Nordic race, but lacking in the theological depth. I’m glad that I found inexpensive solution to his problem.

        There are tons of interesting people in NYC who aren’t about money.

        Yakov

        May 15, 2018 at EDT am

      • You meant to say interesting people who are independently wealthy or paying subsidized rent.

        If you love God and the Earth, greater America is the place for you, but this act of love is becoming increasingly difficult, unless one wants to live a hard life of bare bones and engage in self sufficient farming.

        Not one place in America is immune to the machinations of corporate greed and corruption. Plutocrats ensure the best places to live in the country remains unaffordable and rest of the nation remains in dire condition for those without the means.

        JS

        May 15, 2018 at EDT pm

      • NYC strikes me as a large, isolating hotel. I’ve lived there, and my brother has been there for a long time. He’s good looking, has a very active social life (on demand), and gets very lonely for lack of available cultural depth and thus relationship depth / consistency. In addition, people are transient and women tend to look to trade up more often there.

        Whereas one can live in Central Ohio, have “nothing to do”, but have a very wide circle of friends and easily find a cute, down to Earth wife.

        Sam

        May 15, 2018 at EDT pm

      • I enjoy interaction with people without checking their pockets.

        Yakov

        May 15, 2018 at EDT pm

    • Israel state was created by sin by the secular jews who rebel against the nations.

      Yd

      May 14, 2018 at EDT am

  17. Conservative Judaism doesn’t have any firm doctrine. Their set of beliefs is fluid and already includes acceptance of intermarriage and homosexuality. They were always heretics that manipulated religion for their needs and benefit while pretending to be ‘observant’. They should all (I mean the rabbits and ideologues, not the ignorant members) be put to the sword, but will disappear naturally before this happens.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.myjewishlearning.com/article/conservative-halakhah-and-homosexuality/amp/

    Yakov

    May 14, 2018 at EDT am


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

w

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: