Lion of the Blogosphere

A comment from a reader about growing up prole

“Red pill aspie” wrote an excellent comment about growing up prole.

My opinion, however, is that the Czech girls mentioned in the comment may have seemed more polite and feminine because they were out of their element and didn’t know the commenter’s social status in the United States, but they may have been total bitches to low-status boys back home in Czechoslovakia.

I also have a lower opinion of “salt-of-the-earth” types from Staten Island than the commenter does.

Also, Staten Island was not the least bit rural in the 1980s. Maybe in the 1950s. If you are looking for a specific date when Staten Island went to crap, that day is November 21, 1964.

* * *

My parents are immigrants from the Czech Republic, who fled the Soviet invasion that crushed the Prague Spring in 1968. They settled first in Astoria, Queens, then in Staten Island (the Arden Heights area, which is not too far from where the SI dump used to be.). They were educated in gymnasiums (pre-college schools in the Czech Republic), but given the new environment, had to start their own businesses. They were sort of unlucky in the respect that their fellow Czech friends succeeded earlier than them and made it out to the suburbs in NJ, while they made do in Staten Island. Although incidentally, they moved there because SI was still very rural in the 1980’s. Our townhouse unit had a picturesque green scenery that was unfortunately ruined with more townhouse eyesores that were built there shortly after my parents moved in.

I grew up in what Lion would call a “high prole” environment, where parents worked as teachers, cops, firemen and had the working class ethic accompanying it. I was seen as the “nerd” of the neighborhood since I was very good in math and was at the top 1% of my class. Despite this, my parents didn’t focus on putting me to special schools as they wished for me to focus on practical applications (get a schooling good enough for a good job, think of basically getting a good enough schooling for Rutgers). While I was bullied, I was still friends with people in my neighborhood. It was not uncommon for me to be invited by my “gang” for baseball, basketball, swim pool meets, etc. While I wasn’t high social status, I was still seen as part of the “gang”.

Obviously, this group was more salt-of-the-earth and concentrated on popular culture, going-ons with the Yankees, etc. While it was easily accessible for us to take the subway to the SI ferry and go to Manhattan, our group only went for a few times and that was mainly to see the Yankees. Otherwise, our group never really went for cultural outings and the like. It was more movies, pool parties, neighborhood parties, etc.

I did get an inkling early on how upper middle class life was as my parents regularly visited their successful friends in NJ. I got along pretty ok with their sons on these playdates, but I could tell the environment was not as salt-of-the-earth as I was used to in SI. The living seemed more atomized and didn’t have the community vibe as I was used to in SI. I also could see the environment was more competitive in terms of academics, sports, etc. From my perception, people seemed to focus more on their track teams, academics, etc. than on a relaxed living I was used to.

One big thing that stood out were the suburban girls. My parents had two Czech friends who both had daughters. The talk of hypergamy about girls and such? I saw that very early on. There was a bitchiness, stuck-up quality to them that shocked me very much. True, there were bitchy girls in SI, but they seemed pretty rare. Girls in SI could be mean, but it was more of a salt-of-the-earth variety, not the entitled way I saw the NJ girls carry themselves.

What was even more shocking were the Czech girls my parents took in. My parents regularly hosted friends who came to visit from the Czech Republic when they wanted to travel in the US. Some of these had daughters. They were a real pleasure to interact with! They treated me very nicely and like an actual human being. There seemed a quality to them that they were natural while the suburban girls were very artificial. It mitigated the feeling that there was something wrong with me for the girls in the suburbs to act so stuck up.

Eventually my parents succeeded in their businesses and saved up money for a house in NJ. We actually rushed to move out as my townhouse neighborhood was starting to fill up with “low-proles” and NAMs. My parents were careful to select a neighborhood in NJ where the high school was one of the top 10 in all of NJ.

The move and high school years were some of the worst years of my life. I had been the top person in my school, but now I was in a high school with Indians, Chinese, and upper middle class whites. My grades suffered when I realized I was no longer the top student and I had to work hard to bring them up again. The new environment was very demotivating as everything was so atomized. The only way to make friends in such a suburban environment was with playdates, something my parents were not used to. I only managed to make friends from the tennis team I was part of and the quiz bowl team. I had thought of myself as a nerd, but the nerds outcasted me with their snark. I didn’t realize it at the time, but I had brought my working class mentality which didn’t rub well with the upper middle class one. Everyone took poorly to the salt-of-the-earth humor I had.

I also noticed early on that people had all these “fake” personalities and were passive-aggressive. In NYC, we could mess with each other talking with PC humor, but in my new environment, it rubbed off poorly on people. The implication was that you were an uneducated boor with such talk. I didn’t realize how insular suburbs were because of such things as helicopter parenting, groupthink, cognitive bias, etc. I frankly didn’t know the extent of such insularity until I saw the SJW phenomenon starting in 2013 and realizing they were a product of it.

My time was miserable in the suburbs, but because of my high intelligence (my IQ is 152), I managed to get good grades and go to a prestigious STEM school. I was still miserable as I was still surrounded by upper middle class types. My friends were usually foreigners, intellectuals, or the odd working class person who like me was lucky to go to the school.

All of these experiences left me with a sour taste and confusion. It wasn’t until the rise of the red-pill and blogs like these that I could make sense out of this new class system, a system that Charles Murray wrote about years earlier and to which I’m kicking myself for not reading him soon enough. I now have been able to fit in with upper middle class/hipster types since I know how to fake the socializing, but to me it still doesn’t feel authentic. I still have 1-2 working class friends who I’m grateful for as I can drop my PC exterior and feel authentic around.

[ ] I feel that my working class background has given me unique insights and real world experience that people of the upper middle class are either unaware of or dismiss out of hand.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

Posted in Proles

49 Responses

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  1. “My opinion, however, is that the Czech girls mentioned in the comment may have seemed more polite and feminine because they were out of their element and didn’t know the commenter’s social status in the United States, but they may have been total bitches to low-status boys back home in Czechoslovakia.”

    Plus they were guests in his house!

    Jeremy Cooper

    May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

  2. “The move and high school years were some of the worst years of my life. I had been the top person in my school, but now I was in a high school with Indians, Chinese, and upper middle class whites. My grades suffered when I realized I was no longer the top student and I had to work hard to bring them up again. The new environment was very demotivating as everything was so atomized. The only way to make friends in such a suburban environment was with playdates, something my parents were not used to.”

    Perhaps I’m only surprised because I also grew up prole, but do upperclass parents really organize “playdates” for high schoolers? Where I came from we don’t really use that word after a kid is able to walk.

    Jeremy Cooper

    May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • “do upperclass parents really organize “playdates” for high schoolers?”

      That seems very weird. I’ve never heard of such a thing.

    • That’s also weird to me. I grew up in an upper class SWPL mecca and parents don’t organize playdates after kids are 11 or 12.

      SC

      May 26, 2018 at EDT am

      • The writer of the comment claims to have Asperger Syndrome, so probably he didn’t understand the social dynamic.

  3. Interesting post! Some greats insights into working class vs. upper middle. Accords with things I’ve noticed (as someone from more of a “middle” middle-class background.)

    GondwanaMan

    May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

  4. In my experience, girls act much more aloof towards men when they are in front of their peers or otherwise concerned that their peers might learn about the interaction.. They are afraid of being seen interacting with a man who later turns out to be low status. If the girl is overseas, she doesn’t have to worry as much. So that could be part of the difference this person observed.

    fortaleza84

    May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • I’ve always experienced the opposite, girls are more aloof when alone because there’s less pressure to appear well socialized or whatever.

      Gm

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

      • I always noticed boys were nicer when their friends are not around..same phenom I guess.

        Also, people I’ve worked with will be aloof at the job but suddenly all friendly when you see them around town.

        Mrs Stitch

        May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • This.

      On the beaches of Nice, France the girls go topless. Had a friend who, while at Pomona, was vacationing in Nice walking the beach when he came upon some girls he knew in college topless on the beach. He said hello and they went berserk. Though they didn’t mind showing off to all the strange Euro men occupying the beach.

      Curle

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

      • To be fair, girls who go topless at Sandy Hook doesn’t necessary want men they know in “real life” to see them topless.

        ScarletNumber

        May 26, 2018 at EDT am

  5. Staten Island is a strange place with fierce insularism. Like you (rpa) describe, many islanders never or rarely go into the city (manhattan) if they do it’s for a sports or medical reason, occasionally bway play. Maybe 1-3 times a year.

    It’s entirely possible given your high intelligence and nerdiness that you might have crashed and burned, socially, whether you moved or not. High IQ individuals lacking social gravitas are kind of doomed in that respect. It’s good you learned to ‘act.’

    What you call salt of the earth on staten island, I call clan of the cave bear. That insularism dovetails with clannishness, it’s like a weird galapagos experiment where a bunch of northern italians have interbred with each other for generations. They can be maniacally friendly, until they’re not.

    Anyway I’m sorry you suffered. Nothing worse than rich snobs. I’m also sorry lion suffered on SI. He’s never gone into detail what happened to him here, but I’m going to guess it was inspired to some degree by antisemitism.

    toomanymice

    May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

  6. UMC whites are an interesting blend. There are the strivers who have to anxiously ape the “chic-think” and then there are the invidious types who ride the coattails of generational network effects – like Jews only dumber, I.e. the “Chad”s and “Stacy”s of the world who effortlessly inherit a good life through inheritances in one form or another (Gavin Newsom’s wine business is an archetypical example).

    I think most UMC whites are associated with the latter type whom have such a large margin of error awarded that they can fail upward. They are necessarily more illiterate and “prolier” and less fake, but assholes, so I think the commenter experienced the striver segment (which also makes sense if they are betting the farm on prestigious credentials vis-a-vis conjugating socially with Asian strivers).

    A Dilettante

    May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • Good post. I think you hit the nail on the head.

      Two in the Bush

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

  7. The Tchek people I know – girl or boys – are extremely handsome and very horish. If they were objects, they would be fuck automats interested in money and status only. They are very cold. Even Russian girls aren’t like that. Other people who know them think the same .

    Bruno

    May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • I never heard this, but then again, I grew up taking Czech culture for granted, so I may be blind to such things. Also, don’t forget, my family and others were somewhat Americanized, so they would be an imperfect sample. And people who I would know are relatives from the Czech Republic, so that is heavily biased as well.

      What I do know is that Czech people tend to be nice but aloof to strangers. Only when they get to know you do they really open up and become friendly. Somewhat different from the Russian approach where they are cold and aloof, until they open up, then they become really friendly. And very much different than the American approach where they are initially warm and friendly that you risk thinking that it’s insincere.

      Our culture is a mix in my opinion of Slavic and German features. This is mainly a legacy of being some 400+ years under Hapsburg (Austrian) domination. In fact, Czech was outlawed after the 30 years war and was revived only in the 19th century with the rising tide of nationalism. Ask an average Czech and they’ll say they feel more kinship with Austrians than with Russians. A lot of it is from bitterness due to the Soviet occupation, but also that they feel more closer to Austrian culture rather than Russian culture. They certainly have absorbed the German notion of thoroughness, at least in the middle and upper classes. The lower classes I think you would see the more stereotypical drunk Slavic bumpkin.

      Czechs are certainly hard-working. They are infamous for rising at 4AM for work and leaving at 3PM. In fact, Czechoslovakia between the world wars was the 7th largest economy on Earth (they won the lottery when almost all the factories from the Austro-Hungarian empire were awarded to them). They are also immensely athletic as you see with all the world famous Czech athletes. Though no professional, I am surprisingly athletic as my father engaged me in a lot of sports when I was young, from tennis to skiing to waterskiing. It certainly helped mitigate some of my more awkward nerdy features.

      But if by horish, you mean sexual, I certainly agree. They have a laissez faire attitude to sex that is probably on par with the French, if not more so. My parents laugh privately at the puritanical notion of sex that most Americans still have. A favorite story of ours is when ex-President Richard Nixon and his aide Monica Crowley visited President Vaclav Havel shortly after he became President (1991 I think). Nixon, the prudish Quaker was very shocked at Havel’s artwork in his office which depicted all sorts of artistic nudes, even statues of nude women.

      The Czech Republic by the way has President Zeman who is explicitly nationalist and has refused to take in any Muslim migrants. He was also one of the few European leaders other than Putin who openly supported Trump before and after the election.

      Redpillaspie

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

      • My favorite Czech woman is Milena Velba. Have you ever heard of her?

        GondwanaMan

        May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

      • No, but I just saw her now. As I mentioned, we Czechs are sexual.

        I should point out that her type comes from certain areas of the Czech Republic. She probably came from an industrial part of Bohemia or northern Moravia. They are the grimy type of Pittsburgh cities that would produce this types.

        Rural Bohemia and southern Moravia though are very pleasant and beautiful areas. That’s where you find the more sweet and accommodating Czechs. They are the areas that have village festivals with colorful peasant costumes.

        Redpillaspie

        May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

      • Hey, it could have been worse. You could have wound up like these guys:

        sestamibi

        May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

      • President Zeman

        Lol!

        E. Rekshun

        May 24, 2018 at EDT am

  8. As I think has been made clear, changing social class can be really lonely. In fact, past a certain age (another commenter suggested this), I’m not certain it can fully be done.

    What compounds matters even *further*, something that may not be apparent to readers without children, is that my disorientation, my “identity confusion” or what I at one point decided to term “class dissonance”, affects my children, because it provokes uncertainty about how to raise them.

    For instance, I came from a lower-middle-class background, and now I work in an upper-middle-class profession. So which “class” should I raise my kids to be comfortable in? (That’s a rhetorical question; please don’t answer it.) I’m quite well-aware that my children, especially if they opt for a more “traditional” family structure, may not be able to (or want to) afford an upwardly-mobile lifestyle. As a matter of fact, we have made the conscious decision NOT to raise our children with the various trappings of an UMC life for precisely this reason: I don’t want them to grow up with material or social assumptions that they can’t afford for themselves when they become independent. I would prefer for them to grow up feeling “middle-class” at best, so that they don’t feel like they need to have large incomes to support expectations that they grew up with.

    SJ, Esquire

    May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • I much preferred being an UMC kid in a private academy designed to meet the needs of a layer of very rich kids after being an UMC kid in a public school with a layer of Lumpenproles.

      At the private school, there was little in the way of status compensation because the middle and UMC kids all knew their place vis-a-vis the deca-millionaires and up who ruled the roost. Why bother competing with the kid being chauffeured to school each day by a hired driver? Whereas public school meant navigating some surly, dumb and resentful Lumpenprole who thought your family was rich because your dad worked in an office and had a college degree.

      Curle

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

      • That all makes sense.

        SJ, Esquire

        May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

      • public school meant navigating some surly, dumb and resentful Lumpenprole

        Sounds pretty unsafe. Always, as advised long ago by LotB, one must get on a career track that pays enough to move away from poor people.

        E. Rekshun

        May 24, 2018 at EDT am

    • There is a great example of a person who had “class dissonance”: Richard Nixon. If you read through his biography, he definitely fits the background that you, I, Lion, and others went through. He grew up poor in Whittier, California and worked for his father as a grocer. He had to get up at 4AM and get vegetables for his father before going to school.

      Nixon was very smart, but was constrained by his circumstances. He had been offered a scholarship to go to Harvard, but had to turn it down as his brother was dying from tuberculosis and was taking care of him. He instead went to a local school: Whittier College. Even there, he was looked down upon by the top echelon there and was forbidden from joining their fraternity. He instead founded his own.

      Eventually, Nixon was able to go to Duke Law School. However, the school had only been recently founded and while it gave a great law education, it was not highly regarded back then by the prestigious law firms of NYC. When Nixon graduated, he was turned down by all the high-ranking law firms in NYC and had to make do with a local practice back in Whittier. Incidentally, he met his wife Pat while taking part in a local play hosted by the Whittier community.

      Nixon eventually became well-known when he got elected to Congress and for going hard after Alger Hiss, who was convicted in perjury. This may have been in part because Hiss was a member of the East Coast elite, which Nixon hated for having snubbed him. This hounding of Hiss made Nixon hated by the East Coast media of his day (New York Times, Washington Post) as he had gone after one of their own. It was a hatred that would develop over a lifetime.

      Nixon’s rise to the presidency can be seen as both simultaneously wanting to be accepted by the East Coast elite, but at the same time giving them the proverbial middle finger (voting for Nixon in 1968 was seen as rejecting the Great Society and by extension the East Coast establishment). Nixon in a way was the Trump of his day, though it was not as acrimonious as it is today given that there were standards and boundaries in polite society that no one crossed.

      Nixon especially hated the Kennedys, who were the complete opposite of him. They were basically mediocre intellects, but had dazzling social personalities and wealth which they used to ride to the Presidency (or cheat Nixon out of as JFK got Mayor Daley to stuff the ballots in Chicago). He resented that he had to work hard for where he was and was despised for doing so while the Kennedys were given a free ride for basically doing nothing.

      It’s this weird love-hate relationship with the upper classes that in no small part contributed to Nixon’s paranoia and hatred of the ruling classes, which led to the creation of the Plumbers, which in turn led to Watergate and his eventual downfall.

      Red pill aspie

      May 24, 2018 at EDT am

      • Alger Hiss was almost certainly operating under direct orders from Roosevelt when he committed his crimes. Which is why the establishment bent over backwards to protect him. Just as Comey was almost certainly committing his crimes under direct orders from Obama.

        It’s called falling on your sword.

        Curle

        May 24, 2018 at EDT am

      • Excellent comment and great insights. Since you’re from central/eastern Europe, have strong views on class, and have experience with communism you should check out this blog post on the topic.

        https://eradica.wordpress.com/2014/05/06/old-and-new-gods/

        redarmyvodka

        May 25, 2018 at EDT am

  9. Czech people cannot be prole. especially not descendants of Eastern European immigrants , middle eastern, etc. are not prole. Prole means while lower- middle-class, maybe some Hispanic or black,

    grey enlightenment

    May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • I will admit there is some bias, especially as my parents were certainly more cultured than our neighbors. My father though runs a business that employs proles and my mom’s business had proles as well. For my purposes, since I grew up American and in a prole neighborhood, I consider myself having grown up prole.

      I certainly have gone a long way from my prole upbringing, but I still feel some pull towards it. I certainly feel more relaxed among working class types than some hipsters, especially when discussing politically incorrect topics.

      Redpillaspie

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • Also, I think Polish people, especially in the Chicago area are considered prole.

      Redpillaspie

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • Prole isn’t so much about class in monetary terms, but more of undesirable behavior. The red-pill o sphere tells you that women are hypergamous. Golddigging women tend to be open about this inherent female trait, which is prole. Eastern European women based on stereotypes are golddiggers as with any other woman who come from poor countries.

      JS

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

      • Yeah, this makes sense. I remember in my first year of American HS I was talking to 2 white girls and a guy from my class. The conversation turned to what’s more important the form of the substance. So one girl goes:
        – What does it matter how you say it? My mother says it does, but why? What’s the difference if you say ‘leave me alone’ or ‘go stick you head in the toilet’?
        – Or’ go eat sh*t’, chimes in the second lovely young lady.
        – I wouldn’t say it to my mother to eat sh*t, responds the gentleman.
        – Maybe not to eat sh*t, but what’s wrong with ‘go stick your head in the toilet’? Right, Jack(Jack – that was me)?

        Welcome to America, Yakov! They we all very nice to me, though.

        Yakov

        May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

  10. There is hardly anyone lonelier than a smart prole.

    Sam

    May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • True that! Although I do very well with foreigners and intellectuals. There is an exotic element that is attractive to them.

      There are some people famous for being smart proles. H.L. Mencken is a very good example.

      Redpillaspie

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

  11. Why 11/21/64, Lion?

    Ripple Earthdevil

    May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • Yes, I was also curious about this.

      McFly

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

      • I curse the day the bridge opened. It changed si for the worse. Tacky development everywhere. As there’s a ferry to manhattan, there was a ferry to Brooklyn we had to take to see family.

        Back then , being so in accessible, you had to WANT to live there, or that’s where you worked. Then as now a sanctuary for civil servants of white ethnicities, that charming feature has eroded. It was never meant to be inhabited by nearly half a million. The infrastructure can’t support it. The pre VN bridge population of about 250,000 was about right.

        Newyorker

        May 24, 2018 at EDT am

      • Staten Island had a pretty large population even before the bridge opened. I guess it was all concentrated on the North Shore.

    • From an astrological standpoint – Nov. 21 is under the sign of Scorpio which rules total transformation or change. Specifically on that day in 1964 the guido bridge (name after the guido Verrazano) was opened that connects Brooklyn to Staten Island, ushering a major demographic change. Guidos from Brooklyn made a mass exodus into the dull outskirts of the island, which would make a lasting impact as to what we think of Staten Island, essentially a guido sanctuary.

      JS

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • Isn’t it annoying when Lion approves a comment consisting of a question but doesn’t reply to the question? But in this case, the answer wasn’t hard to find with Google: the opening of the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge. which made it possible to drive between the rest of NYC and Staten Island.

      Hermes

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

  12. The true upper class and proles have a lot in common. Namely, they both value masculinity and tradition. These families are sired by more alpha males, whether they are working class cops and firemen or rich entrepreneurs or legacy chads. The Trump boys are a good example. They were raised to be men. They played football and went trophy hunting. Middle class men are mostly betas and upper middle class men even nerdier betas. They raise their kids to be politically and culturally correct while avoiding all forms of psychological and physical danger. This is why there is an alliance between the conservative rich (country club Republicans). Moldbug referred to them as the Optimate/Vaisya alliance. The both value honor, tradition and not being a pussy.

    B.T.D.T.

    May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • Jared Kushner wouldn’t be an alpha judging by his speech and physical demeanor.

      It’s safe to assume that the Kushners are a lot more powerful and wealthier than Trump, because of their real estate holdings in Manhattan. Jews aren’t known for their physical prowess and rough n tumble, but for their cerebral power and most important, a talent for business.

      JS

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • The manosphere has a term called Delta Male, essentially a guy who has one or two sex partners throughout his lifetime and gets married with kids. This is the normal male and the most common.

      JS

      May 23, 2018 at EDT pm

    • And it also explains a lot of these conservatives supporting Russia, or at least not buying into the collusion theory. A lot of liberals and neo-cons are horrified that these people support a supposedly evil country in their eyes; a country that rigged our election, supposedly does shitposts all the time on Facebook and social media to create civil war conditions and does everything in its power to impeded supposed US benevolent imperialism.

      The real reason is that Putin helms an European country that is unapologetically masculine and is not afraid to curtail gay rights, promote a strong military and a proud patriotism. Putin is a far more preferable choice in their eyes despite being a dictator than the feminized, PC, beta elite of the EU and the US.

      Incidentally, I strongly think that Trump wants to make peace and an alliance with Putin, but has to be careful as any move towards that will supposedly validate the “collusion” conspiracies of the Democrats. My guess is that Trump is waiting for the right time to disprove Mueller’s investigation and the basis behind it before he can plow ahead with making a truce with Putin. For now, he is reluctantly doing “token” sanctions to prove he is not Putin’s toady in the left’s eyes.

      Red pill aspie

      May 24, 2018 at EDT am

    • Agreed. The public schools are terrible largely because they’re run by middle and upper middle class men and women who are soft and intellectual. They think that way of life when imposed on the lower classes will make them successful when in reality it is the opposite; prosperity/privilege breeds softness.

      redarmyvodka

      May 25, 2018 at EDT am

  13. Jim the Waco Kid said it best about common people

    ScarletNumber

    May 26, 2018 at EDT am


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