Lion of the Blogosphere

University of Chicago replaces SAT/ACT scores with two-minute video

No, it’s not an April Fool’s joke! And yes, it seems like I’ve had to say that multiple times this month.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/06/15/university-chicago-drops-satact-requirement

The University of Chicago on Thursday morning announced that it was dropping the requirement that all undergraduate applicants submit SAT or ACT scores.

. . .

In addition, the university announced a new program in which it will invite students to submit a two-minute video introduction of themselves.

We now live in a world where how good you look on video is more important for getting into an elite college than reading comprehension or math abilities!

For parents, be advised, plastic surgery and acting classes are a lot more important for your children’s future than scholastic prep! Seriously!

Also, a personal trainer for your kids so they look nice and fit is also advised.

* * *

Socially extinct write in a comment:

University finally teaches these kids something about the real work world. ’bout time!

Right, this is what I’ve been saying for a long time, getting promoted at corporations is more about looking good, being liked by those who can promote you, and creating the perception that you’re senior manager material than doing any real work or creating real value. The complete opposite of how libertarian economists think the world works.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

June 16, 2018 at EST am

Posted in Education

112 Responses

Subscribe to comments with RSS.

  1. Isn’t this more evidence of the marketing economy?

    Ronald McDonald

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

    • Yes! Or the importance of value transference. Being able to create value (by being smart) is less important than being able to transfer value (by looking good and giving off the impression that you’re a “leader”).

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 16, 2018 at EST am

      • When I started university in Vancouver, BC in 1969, there was no equivalent of the SAT. The universities (just two in BC) used Grade 12 exams results.

        They could do this because the exams were centralized, every public school and accredited private school in the province gave the same exams at the same time. Public schools were uniform across the province, enforced by the provincial government. Even public schools are inspected, if not as often as the private schools.

        Just checked and they are still going by Grade 12 exams. (Plus something more complicated for foreign students, plus an English language requirement.)

        This has resulted in massive Chinese/Korean enrolment. No one seems particularly concerned. They’re a pretty big demographic in BC.

        Likely some borderline white kids are angry, I don’t know.

        I guess there too many types of high schools in the US to do this. There is no equivalent of the special high schools in New York for the super bright.

        More kids cross state lines too.

        Frau Katze

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • They’re seriously going to go by a 2 minute video alone? That’s totally insane. Scarcely believable.

        What happens to those “under represented” students when the going gets tough? (That’s starts right away in fields.)

        How many graduate? How many work in the field they were educated in?

        Are they going to do the same thing to medical school (currently very hard to gain admittance here in BC)?

        Frau Katze

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • There’s also high school grades, athletics, essays.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • Leaders are born, not made. By definition, if you draw followers, you are a leader. If you can’t draw followers, you are not. In your example of being promoted by working out to look better, etc. it is essentially like getting game. You try to mimic certain characteristics of leadership/dominance to end up in leadership or anyway to get a raise or some such. Pretend to be alpha. Creating value does matter which is why people running things do pay those who create value. They just pay themselves more because they are running the show.

        not too late

        June 17, 2018 at EST pm

    • We live in a post scarcity world, so fill in the blanks.

      Here is a good example:

      The Strand Book Store has volumes and volumes of dusty tomes of Aristotle that the average White hipster doesn’t care for, because he’s more about status signaling that is both sheepish and unintellectual and the White yuppy is the same, except he status signal as an upper middle classmen of pseudo-wealth. So why not throw these books into the inner city neighborhoods where blacks n Hispanics can embrace glorious White men from antiquity?

      JS

      June 16, 2018 at EST am

      • I am a big fan of the way Aristotle wrote, although I realize he was probably all not that much fun to be around when he was not teaching. And he was fundamentally unsound on some of the more specific aspects of metaphysics (metaphysics not meaning physics that are metaphysical, but meaning those fields of study which are beyond (meta) physics) ….

        I like the concept of the “apeiron” (that which has no bounds) and the concept of the “First Mover” (that is how little Aristotle saw big God) and the concept of “telos” (which is why a tree swaying in the summer breezes, with all its tens of thousands of green leaves poetically sighing against a blue summer sky, does what it does) and Aristotle’s Rhetoric and Poetics are, while not up to date, fairly useful for those who are interested, God be blessed, in Rhetoric or Poesy.

        That being said, if you were to give every kid in the United States a beautifully printed and illustrated volume of the most accessible and useful excerpts from the Aristotelean opera omnia (let’s leave aside the idea of giving them sad old 20 year old and not all that well printed used paperback volumes of Aristotle, whether from the Strand Book Store or from even the most elite of used books stores, whichever that is….) you would be wasting your time 999 times out of 1,000.

        Well then there is the one out of a thousand.

        howitzer daniel

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • * Side note — On bookstores is that the Strand has so much money for an independent that they could afford to sell a rare edition for a fraction of the price of what the elite bookstores are going for. A book that costs $20 at the Strand could be well over $200 at marketplace rates.

        JS

        June 17, 2018 at EST am

  2. They are all adopting some form of this it seems. After the Fisher case they’ve seen the writing on the wall. If blacks don’t submit SAT scores the schools can’t be discriminating against whites. Soon this practice will be normalized so that public schools will become comfortable adopting it.

    Curle

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

  3. Good, now the black underclass from the Southern Side of Chicago will ace their 2 min video exam.

    “The U of Chicago implements a I Feel Good – American Idol entrance requirement”

    JS

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

  4. Just so long as this isn’t a backdoor way to add more undeserving black and brown faces. Who am I kidding? That’s exactly what this scheme is all about.

    Lee

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

  5. University finally teaches these kids something about the real work world. ’bout time!

    Socially Extinct

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

    • It all comes down to whether the goal of admissions should be to predict academic success over a person’s college education or the success they’ll have in their career after school. I think colleges should have to admit purely based on a prediction of junior and senior year grades, adjusted for subject difficulty. For that, I suspect these videos would tell admissions officers next to nothing. Although it could help identify students who are so socially isolated that they academically self destruct.

      Magnavox

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • The videos provide cover and plausible deniability for malfeasance and discrimination.

        not too late

        June 17, 2018 at EST pm

  6. It’s a lot easier to discriminate on the basis of race when you can see what your victims look like.

    Some Guy

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

    • Yes, good point!

      E. Rekshun

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • It doesn’t say you have to address the camera. Without clicking on the links, I would assume you could submit a two minute claymation video accompanied by your violin playing.

      I think it’s actually pretty cool. If you can’t spend a Saturday making a not-horrible 120 second video, then you’re probably not very smart. I think people are overestimating how smart Asian grinds really are. These are the people who would make total crap/bland videos.

      bobbybobbob

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • Smart enough to avoid committing crimes.

        Curle

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • “I think people are overestimating how smart Asian grinds really are. These are the people who would make total crap/bland videos.”

        Either that or hire a fancy college consultant to “help” them make a video. Not that it really matters, because videos are subjective enough that you can always invent a reason to prefer one video over another.

        fortaleza84

        June 17, 2018 at EST am

      • Smart enough to avoid committing crimes.

        Again, good point!

        E. Rekshun

        June 17, 2018 at EST am

      • “Smart enough to avoid committing crimes.”

        That’s correct. Asians don’t commit many violent crimes because it’s not smart. And most have enough impulse control not to do dumb things, However, that has nothing to do with honesty or a sense of right and wrong. Based on my experience, Asians (particularly Chinese) don’t possess much in the way of scruples.

        destructure

        June 17, 2018 at EST am

      • Asian grinds are smart enough to find someone to “help” them make a video that will get them accepted.

        not too late

        June 17, 2018 at EST pm

    • How do they know now what race they are? I understood that the applicants had to pick from a list, but I don’t really know much about it.

      Frau Katze

      June 17, 2018 at EST pm

      • Probably you can make a very accurate guess based on the person’s name, location, and activities. “But that’s racist!” you say. Well sure. The people who pretend to be fighting racism are among the most racist people of all.

        fortaleza84

        June 18, 2018 at EST am

  7. I would love to hear the justification for this. What a facially absurd policy.

    Two in the Bush

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

  8. I remember when feministx had her blog, she bragged about how she was so personable that whenever she interviewed for a job, she would get the job. But now I know, better. She was simply a somewhat attractive woman in her 20s with a modicum of social skills.

    Lookism is so pervasive, it’s really unfair to have this 2-minute video option. No doubt the admissions officers will convince themselves that they are rating applicants based on their poise and confidence.

    As far as the SAT requirement goes, it kinda depends on how it’s implemented. I have a feeling that if you are a typical white upper middle class applicant, if you don’t submit SAT scores, you aren’t getting in. That this is just a way of getting more Black and Hispanic students without publicly announcing that if you are Black or Hispanic, the SAT requirements are quite relaxed.

    fortaleza84

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

    • Lookism, yes, but in the socially sophisticated realm of today’s workplace, behaviorism is also vitally important. You must behave in a manner that is pristinely compatible and complementary with your cohorts (who were similarly selected in the same fashion). The end result is a collection of very similar people of a conforming nature which also sets the behavioral/expressive “bar” for new hires. If you can’t assimilate into the mass-produced cliques, you’ll be excised like a splinter.

      Hence the video element…

      Socially Extinct

      June 16, 2018 at EST am

    • “I have a feeling that if you are a typical white upper middle class applicant, if you don’t submit SAT scores, you aren’t getting in. That this is just a way of getting more Black and Hispanic students without publicly announcing that if you are Black or Hispanic, the SAT requirements are quite relaxed.”

      Good point. I bet you’re right.

      Two in the Bush

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • The real perversity is that many White students have become like their East Asian nemesis at the higher learning institutions. They shun learning for what it is and see education as a stepping stone to the frivolity of American consumerism via lucrative careerism via Ivies and other “prestigious” schools.

        I get the feeling that the University of Chicago is seeing a severe drop of enrollment by White students who want to become scholars.

        JS

        June 17, 2018 at EST am

  9. I would write a script for a video and hire an actor (or actors) to perform it. It is very dishonest and discriminatory to begin with, so I would feel no guilt at all over not disclosing that all of the people in the video are actors.

    Panther of the Blogocube

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

  10. Something just occurred to me, which is that the natural result of this policy will be to significantly raise the average SAT scores of students at this school.

    fortaleza84

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

    • Yes, good point!

      E. Rekshun

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  11. “The complete opposite of how libertarian economists think the world works.”

    What? No. If you want to talk about libertarian (-influenced) economists you need to focus on what they’re actually saying, not present some straw man. They agree people will look at several factors including ‘how you present yourself.’ They do say that by libertarian standards we have a corrupted market system starting with taxation.

    Libertarians have been pushing for college education accessible to the top 30% of IQ worldwide that is ‘job ready.’ Colleges are looking at SAT’s but other factors in response. Many have complete open policies and then direct students from there. Choice,

    Robert

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

  12. This is what a successful admissions video will look like:

    Curle

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

    • That’s excruciatingly painful to watch!

      E. Rekshun

      June 17, 2018 at EST am

      • Think of how cringeworthy that rambling ghetto babble masquerading as po-mo rhetorical brilliance was in person as it happened.

        Oswald Spengler

        June 18, 2018 at EST pm

  13. I believe coming soon algos will pick job applicants like they pick stocks already, a tip to a younger self would be start sharing fake hand shake photos with industry leaders, how many fake hand shake photos with Elon Musk and how much buzz words does it take before the first silicon valley job offer comes in?

    guest

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

  14. It’s possible some minorities will benefit and other suffer. For example, the university could fill its black quota by choosing mixed applicants of largely Caucasian appearance at the expense of darker ones, with something similar among Hispanics.

    Peter

    ironrailsironweights

    June 16, 2018 at EST am

    • Which will trigger another round of grievance claims and payments.

      Curle

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  15. My sympathy to the nerdy Chinese and Indian applicants. Is it superfluous to add nerdy in this context?

    Roli

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • Yes, this is true. The English skills of the half dozen mainland Chinese students in my MBA program 20 years ago were were incomprehensible. A two-minute video would be painful for an admissions officer.

      E. Rekshun

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  16. This is actually very funny.

    Back in the 90’s there was a large debate between Gary Becker at the University of Chicago and A. Michael Spence at Stanford over the nature of the labor market. Becker was a proponent of the “human capital” model of behavior; Spence was a proponent of the “market signaling” model.

    Obviously, the “human capital” model won as a standard in labor economics. Yet, here we have an entire university devoted to proving Spence right.

    Frankly, we should just make it illegal for companies to require college degrees for jobs.

    map

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • “Obviously, the “human capital” model won as a standard in labor economics.“

      In which alternate universe? At least as applied to college?

      Curle

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • Academia.

        map

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • But not in the real world of employment.

        Curle

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • “Frankly, we should just make it illegal for companies to require college degrees for jobs.”

      Or just overturn Griggs v. Duke Power.

      njguy73

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • Have you bothered to read Griggs v. Duke Power? The Court said that using CREDENTIALS was just as discriminatory as using an IQ test if it has a disparate impact.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • “if it has a disparate impact.”

        On a job that doesn’t ‘need’ the credential. The Hive Mind concept has discredited the notion that intelligence isn’t always of benefit and that some jobs shouldn’t select for it.

        Curle

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • Can’t use credentials because of disparate impact.
        Can’t use degree requirements because of disparate impact.
        Can’t use IQ test because of disparate impact.
        Can’t use job aptitude test because of disparate impact.

        But we can use self-made video introductions. No disparate impact there.

        njguy73

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • There’s what precedent says and there’s the actual practice of what rules are enforced by the courts (and EEOC) and how they are enforced.

        Under the unwritten rules, any large employer that hires based on a test is taking a serious risk of being hit with a big discrimination lawsuit and losing. Under the unwritten rules, employers are free to require college degrees for most positions with little fear of getting tagged for discrimination.

        To put it more simply, courts don’t follow written precedent when it comes to discrimination cases, they follow unwritten rules. They cover it up by lying in their written opinions about the facts of the case and the basis of their reasoning. By simply ignoring solid arguments and important facts raised by the losing party.

        fortaleza84

        June 17, 2018 at EST am

      • The relevant problem is overturning the Bush laws that make student loan debt non dis-chargeable in bankruptcy. This is completely insane. An 18 year old can’t be saddle permanently with debt for a pointless degree. The federal government also has to removed entirely from the student loan market. Fine, keep handing out Pell Grants to the blacks if that’s politically expedient, but no more of this Sallie Mae gravy train.

        bobbybobbob

        June 17, 2018 at EST pm

      • Fortunately, feminists have started to notice that the majority of student loan debt is held by girls. Once politicians have the opportunity to demonstrate to our gynocentric society just how much they support women, you can bet there will be legislative action.

        fortaleza84

        June 18, 2018 at EST am

    • “Frankly, we should just make it illegal for companies to require college degrees for jobs.”

      Also make a 200% sumptuary tax on higher education.
      People will say that’s outrageous, but what would they have said about costs that have more than tripled in a decade or so?

      Check out these numbers to see what a good deal Boomers got out of higher ed back in the day and how their kids & grandkids are now getting shafted.

      http://www.demos.org/sites/default/files/publications/DEMOS_DFC_Yearbook_FA_Optimized_0.pdf

      Thin-Skinned Masta-Beta

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  17. Do you think a 2 minute video is exactly what Harvard will have to go to to keep its admission policy effectively unchanged?

    Anon

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  18. Good parent = tells their kids to take CLEP exams to quiz out of first college year, then finish degree online.

    Bad parent = lets their kid rack up loans for bullshit degree

    Stupid parent = shells out own money for bullshit degree.

    Those are the facts, they are indisputable.

    Njguy73 out.

    njguy73

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • “Good parent = tells their kids to take CLEP exams to quiz out of first college year, then finish degree online.”

      Employers don’t take online degrees seriously, if your kid to have a JOB, especially a CAREER, then that’s really bad advice.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • Not true. When I worked at Western Govenors University, we surveyed employers of our graduates. Our IT grads got high marks. The teachers were generally rated well, but this is public education.
        I saw recently that WGU graduated 5% of the new nurses in the USA last year.

        Half Canadian

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • Nurses are in high demand are they not?

        Check out the prospects for a business grad at Trident University or some such other online cesspool and see what the kids say about their job search. Apparently barista firms call back, sometimes.

        This has been studied. Given an option, employers go with a known brick and mortar because they are overwhelmingly viewed as more competitive. Is WGU beating brick and mortar state schools in soft fields?

        Curle

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • Bad advice. Signaling theory of education trumps labor capital theory. In other words, employers want to know where you rank among your peers. Most online degrees are for the equivalent of community college grads, meaning bottom of the degree seeking cohort.

      Curle

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • Yes, Lion, Curle, you’re correct. I’ve seen the light.

        The brand on your diploma is paramount. Bear any burden, pay any price for the signalling of rank. So you rack up loans. Pay what you can when you can. What are the feds gonna do, send you to Lewisburg?

        Sell your stock in SAT tutoring services.

        If Huntington and Princeton Review had any clues, they’d start giving course in Admissions Video Prep. Maybe have Jenna Marbles and Bethany Mota be guest lecturers.

        njguy73

        June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • “Bear any burden, pay any price for the signalling of rank”

        No. You must evaluate the cost differential. But, if your goal is to enter the domain of the cognitive elite never underestimate the desire of those already there to secure the prestige of their own position by hiring up not down prestige-wise. The guy who went to directional U and succeeds imagines himself exceptional for his school and his success a sign he was really destined for Stanford.

        Curle

        June 17, 2018 at EST am

      • I do think this is melting away in a lot of contexts. You need the pricey degrees to enter specific cartels, including medicine and law. In the broader labor market the degree means a lot less than it probably did 30 years ago. Generally speaking the more math heavy the more options you still have available. I mean, I make a lot of money (in my opinion) and I don’t have an ultra relevant degree to what I’m doing. Nor is my degree from a prestigious or expensive institution. I proved myself on the job in an entry position, acquired skills, and hopped from there, and built relationships along the way. Lion and the NYC social status obsessed don’t get how most of the labor market actually works. I don’t think he realizes that people making $400k in the bay area without a college degree aren’t rare at all. He also doesn’t get that the only people that have truly done well took risks. Even with MDs and lawyers you have to swing for the fences to get anywhere interesting. There is absolutely no pathway where they pat you on the head and you do as you’re told all the way to a high status lifestyle. There is always the need to go off the trail and take risks. Pretty clearly reflected in the multimillionaire stats. From what I recall it’s like 60% business owners, 20% executives, and the rest are lawyers and doctors that broke the mold somehow. The only way you truly do well in American society is as a controller of capital. Good luck chasing degrees and jobs.

        bobbybobbob

        June 17, 2018 at EST pm

      • “Even with MDs and lawyers you have to swing for the fences to get anywhere interesting.“

        I don’t know a single lawyer with a shit degree who hit the big time. Michael Cohen suggests they are out there, but . . .

        Curle

        June 18, 2018 at EST am

  19. One important factor in leadership is height. Women who move up in companies are much more likely to be tall than men in the same situation.

    S Marta Ss

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  20. There used to be an unofficial University of Chicago t-shirt that read, “If I wanted an A I would have gone to Harvard.” Back then it was easy to get in but hard to get out; nowadays it’s hard to be admitted as well.

    Anthony

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • Until around 2006, the University of Chicago positioned itself as the quirky university where students went to learn for learning sake and not for social status or prestige. The student body self-selected into the application pool and the acceptance rate was relatively high. Accordingly, the University’s rankings in the US News steadily dropped over the years until it had fallen well out of the “elite” category, ranking lower than even football-loving rival Northwestern:

      http://publicuniversityhonors.com/2017/09/13/u-s-news-rankings-for-57-leading-universities-1983-2007/

      In summer of 2006, Robert Zimmer took over as university President and set about hacking U of C’s ranking back up into the upper echelon. Basically every major the decision the University has made since then, such as accepting the common application in lieu of its own “Uncommon Application”, has been with an eye of getting the rankings back up. Accordingly, the University has shot back up the rankings:

      http://publicuniversityhonors.com/2015/06/13/u-s-news-national-university-rankings-2008-present/

      http://publicuniversityhonors.com/2016/09/18/average-u-s-news-rankings-for-126-universities-2010-1017/

      Talk to U of C students who graduated in 2007 or 2008, and they’ll tell you that the incoming freshman classes had a noticeably different profile, less weird nerds, and more well-adjusted upper-middle-class strivers.

      I have no doubt that the Univesity has pored over the data and concluded that dropping the SAT/ACT requirement will do the same. Keep in mind that students can still voluntarily submit their scores. I expect that students with high scores will continue to submit, while students with lower scores, including the profile of minority students that the University already accepts, will forgo the option. I think that all the elite Universities have been waiting for someone to go first in order to gauge the results, and will quickly follow suit once this proves a boon to increasing application numbers and yield. Further, this preempts problems from Asians complaining about “merit”-based application, as the University can now subjectively define merit on its own terms.

      HKC

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • Yeah, I had a similar thought. At Harvard, something like 15-20% of the class is affirmative action admits, i.e. Blacks and Hispanics who would never ever be admitted if they were White or Asian. Imagine what would happen to Harvard’s average SAT score if they didn’t have to count the SAT scores of the affirmative action admits — it would jump upwards significantly.

        ” I expect that students with high scores will continue to submit”

        As I said elsewhere in the thread, quite likely the unwritten rule will be that Whites and Asians must submit their scores otherwise they are not getting in; Blacks and Hispanics are discouraged from submitting their scores.

        fortaleza84

        June 17, 2018 at EST am

  21. Most experts agree that high school grades, when properly interpreted, are a better predictor of college success.

    When I was applying for college, which was a long time ago, the top colleges had in person interviews.

    MikeCA

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • “Most experts agree that high school grades, when properly interpreted, care a better predictor of college success.”

      1. All real experts agree that grades + SAT is a better predictor than either alone.
      2. The only way to handicap the grades (and thus properly interpret them) is to know the average SAT score of the high school the grades came from. Without knowing that, and the colleges won’t know that if they stop taking SAT scores, then the high school grades mean nothing, and there will be rampant grade inflation at high schools.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • Yes, I think this is an important point. Even if grades were a better predictor of college performance than grades+test scores, it would still be important to keep using test scores in order to keep people honest.

        If colleges stopped requiring test scores and put all of that emphasis on grades, both grade inflation and outright cheating would go through the roof.

        You know, at fancy private schools in New York, it’s not uncommon for wealthy and influential parents to simply call up the school and ask that their child’s grades be adjusted upwards. There is also similar cheating on recommendations. Practices like this would be a lot more common if SATs were not used.

        fortaleza84

        June 17, 2018 at EST am

    • This is simply false. All education experts think so, but statisticians have noted that these papers are based on an error due to sample selection bias. They look at the correlation of SAT vs grades only for admitted students. There is no paper that examines the following question: If you know that person A got straight A’s in a random high school but 600 in SAT Math and person B got straight B’s in high school and 800 in SAT math, who is more likely to survive at Caltech? ALL the education papers claiming the superiority of test scores ONLY look at students already admitted to the first year class, which is an elementary stats error.

      ivar1916

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • “who is more likely to survive at Caltech?“

        And what is the dropout rate at Caltach? Easier to just survey the dropouts, no? For law school the professors were incredibly confident that they could predict class rank upon graduation knowing only the LSAT score. This theory worked amazingly well for my class.

        Curle

        June 17, 2018 at EST pm

    • Yeah, I heard Steve Innskeep say that a couple weeks ago on NPR. So of course I summarily rejected it.

      hard9bf

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  22. My first thought that this was about boosting AA since the video makes the racial background of the candidate clear and smarter African Americans are better at genial spontaneous performance than homebound Asian grinds being hectored by their tiger moms.
    It’s a way to boost favored minorities over unfavored minorities (in a university context)

    cliff arroyo

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  23. “Right, this is what I’ve been saying for a long time, getting promoted at corporations is more about looking good, being liked by those who can promote you, and creating the perception that you’re senior manager material than doing any real work or creating real value.”

    I think it plays more of a role than it should. But I don’t think it’s more about that. Except for rare exceptions, it’s not binary i.e. either / or. It’s more a case of having one’s thumb on the scale. And EVERYONE has their thumb on the scale. It’s just that most people think they’re smarter than they are and, therefore, deserve more than they get. So they exaggerate the importance of non-meritorious factors out of ego, jealousy and sour grapes.

    It’s also confirmation bias. Everyone has had a manager who they thought was incompetent and/or a jerk. So people tend to see managers as incompetent and/or jerks. Also, it may well be that the incompetent jerk really was the best person for the job. I’ve hired and promoted incompetent jerks because I couldn’t find anyone better. I’ve also hired and promoted people who employees thought were incompetent jerks but I thought were great. But the employees weren’t seeing the big picture. They only saw it from their perspective. From my perspective, they were doing a great job. Not that I’m infallible,. I’ve hired some duds as well.

    There’s a lot of people who think they could do a better job than their manager but couldn’t. Electricians and mechanics frequently think the engineers who designed a system were idiots. Sometimes they even had valid criticisms. But do you honestly think those electricians and mechanics could have designed those systems better? No. They were armchair quarterbacks.

    Regardless, your criticism of libertarian economists is a straw man because they don’t think everyone is hired and promoted strictly on merit,. On the contrary, they think the free market is a better way of regulating non-meritorios factors than government bureaucrats. It’s bad enough when corporations, universities, etc pull that crap. At least one has some recourse not to attend or buy their products. But there is no recourse from government fiat. That’s why the free market is better at confronting prejudice, whether it be racial, gender or merely “looking good, being liked”.

    destructure

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • Two things:

      The Dunning-Kruger Effect is real. I’ve dealt with a number of employees who’ve complained about how a certain situation or crisis was handled who would have been hopelessly incompetent if left to deal with it on their own. The person whose decisions or guidance they resented often saved them from a major league screw up that might’ve piled on more work under more stressful conditions down the line.

      Many employees operate from the never-examined assumption that their own happiness and satisfaction are — or should be — the major concern of their supervisor. Therefore they consider their supervisor unfair or unkind or unreasonable, not realizing that their happiness and satisfaction are not his major priority, as has been made clear to him by his supervisor.

      ice hole

      June 17, 2018 at EST pm

  24. Producing short videos is a common assignment these days in high school, even for STEM subjects. My daughter did a few this past academic year plus any number of animated power points which were basically stop motion shorts. In that respect the new option isn’t so ‘out there.’

    If I were in charge of admissions for an elite school I’d slot 40% based purely on financial, 40% race blind merit, 20% athletic aptitude no matter how stupid. That would make for an interesting group.

    toomanymice

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  25. Leo Strauss is turning over in his grave.

    xyagnostos

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • I know I know…go blame young White people who rather luxuriate over a cup of latte and avocado toast on the rooftop than read a book on Machiavelli by Leo Strauss in the library.

      JS

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  26. I think that the average student will probably have to submit test scores and get in by grades and test scores.

    The point of the video isn’t so much to judge all applicants by the video, but to create a diverse student body where a proportion of the students are admitted for academics, a proportion for athletics, a proportion for video performance, etc.

    Tom

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  27. “The complete opposite of how libertarian economists think the world works.” Isn’t that the way all economic schools of thought think if capitalist?

    Some people at companies are probably protected for various reasons, but not everyone.

    Somebody at the company has to produce or the company will go out of business if they don’t make money. It’s the difference between 2 people who can do the job, one who is liked or has connection and one who doesn’t. I’ve seen many people fired at my company.

    There are some jobs at companies that are really hard to measure if the person is doing something. Some of these jobs might be higher level managers.

    ttgy1

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  28. I feel like this would screw over men than any lookism aspect.

    Most young men aren’t really grown up by the age of 17 when they’re applying for colleges, socially most are quite a mess.

    Kaz

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  29. I guess fraudulently checking the box for “black” won’t work anymore like it did for C. Thomas Howell in 1986′ Soul Man. I always wanted to try that.

    E. Rekshun

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  30. Universities need a way to predict which candidates are best at acting like they care about corporate mission statements, using buzzwords effectively and convincing others they have meaning, being obsequious and asskissing to senior management while being haughty and arrogant around inferior staff and taking credit for things that go right and passing the buck when things go wrong. Better if these individuals can find grinds that will do the work for them. These are what I have witnessed as being the credentials that lead to promotions within a big company, nothing else.

    Essentially, they need to filter and accept society’s sociopaths.

    Ivanthegrozny

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • Hell with universities/colleges in Meriprolestan. Let’s call them vocational schools at best.

      Harvard isn’t so much about learning, the same way plumbing academy doesn’t offer a course on Plato.

      At the end of the day, Americans only care about greed.

      Do you think Dr. Spock at Harvard’s philosophy department has any inkling about the future of Mr. Frat boy’s sociopathic intentions on Wall St? Nor does he care. He just wants to teach, research, write and stay afloat at his cushy tenure position.

      JS

      June 17, 2018 at EST am

      • Speaking of plumbers, guido pipe dreamer for the city of new york’s public housing, Vincenzo Giurbino made more than Bill de Blasio, by billing overtime in the tune of more than $250K.

        https://nypost.com/2016/08/03/city-plumber-made-more-in-ot-than-de-blasios-total-salary/

        This guido better love the NAM tenants who live in the public housing projects. He gets to collect a lucrative salary, because of them.

        JS

        June 17, 2018 at EST am

      • “billing overtime in the tune of more than $250K.”

        Chances are very good he’s cooking the books. Fake overtime at government jobs is a national epidemic, but the media are more interested in fake Russian dossiers.

        Curle

        June 18, 2018 at EST am

      • One can understand why living in NYC and other blues towns is so expensive, when Mr. Giurbino, a no-name, city plumber surpasses in earnings of his big boss, Mayor Bill de Blasio for doing work that a private plumber can execute for a fraction of the cost.

        JS

        June 19, 2018 at EST am

      • This is pure fraud, obviously. A hard working plumber in NYC an make more than that having his own business, but u gotta have brains.

        Yakov

        June 19, 2018 at EST am

      • I think our liberal elites are smart enough to understand that SWPLs and Hipsters below them are stupid, and they make good sheep to be exploited while they also exploit NAMs in the city.

        They collect taxes from high earning SWPLs to pay for their expensive projects (which involve NAM as subjects) and then pay themselves in the process.

        This is America as a whole folks, only independent deep thinkers get to see this.

        JS

        June 19, 2018 at EST am

  31. University of Chicago used to be great (not just elite), but I predict it will go downhill fast. Which Nobel laureate (other than THAT undeserving one) or Fields medalist or serious first-rate researcher would want to be judged on “presentation”, a criterion that will soon be used heavily to evaluate faculty members as well as incoming freshmen.

    chow

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • I don’t know much about UChicago, but my guess is that they are struggling to maintain their elite image. That in another example of the “winner take all” economy, the lion’s share of college prestige is going to the Ivy League plus Stanford and MIT (especially HYPS), and that other schools are increasingly being seen as lower tier.

      Again, I am speculating a bit, but I think there was a time when UChicago was seen as competitive with places like Stanford and Yale, but those times are slipping away.

      Anyway, like I mentioned elsewhere in the discussion, I think this is a bid by UChicago to increase its prestige. The unwritten rule is going to be that Asians and Whites need to submit SAT scores; Blacks and Hispanics don’t. The net result being that UChicago ends up with a very high average SAT score, higher than that of Harvard or Stanford.

      fortaleza84

      June 17, 2018 at EST am

      • “the lion’s share of college prestige”

        I assume this double entendre wasn’t intentional!

        maryk

        June 18, 2018 at EST pm

  32. I’d tell a young person to refer to Patrick Bateman’s worlds problems speech in American psycho as a template for an admissions video.

    McFly

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  33. All I can say is:

    Thank you, Diversity!

    hard9bf

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  34. This is infecting classical orchestra auditions as well. Since pretty much forever, applicants play behind a curtain and the judges don’t know the musician’s name, sex, age, nationality, race — nothing. They judge purely on the sounds they hear.

    So very predictably and so very tragically, this means orchestras are nearly 100% white and Asian, and it goes without saying that a surfeit of white people doing cool and impressive stuff is deplorable In The Current Year. In pursuit of melanin increases, some orchestras have abandoned this venerable practice.

    Thank you, Diversity!

    hard9bf

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • @hard9bf:

      The lack of NAMs in Orchestras is because it is extremely rare to have NAMs in the talent pool. They are probably overrepresented based on applicants (although proving this would require serious data mining).

      Feminists love to point to blind auditions as evidence that men discriminated against women for competitive Orchestra spots, but I remain highly skeptical. Even if the auditions themselves are 100% blind, someone still knows who they are communicating with & speaks to them on the phone, etc.. The only way for the auditions to be totally free of bias is if the applications themselves had all personal data (name, sex, qualifications & activities) completely omitted and all details arranged via email. Unlikely.

      Someone in the administrative role definitely does know these things, and it’s not unbelievable to think that the selection committee would review resumes before proceeding to scheduling an audition. Discrimination can easily occur at this stage by simply permitting a greater number of women into auditions, and it would still be “blind.” This is precisely what Google does with their own applicants, by the way.

      Knowing the makeup of the talent pool for a given audition gives the selection commitee a thumb on the scale. Given the very strong incentives to admit more NAMs and women, I suspect this is done intentionally. Although I doubt the SJW crowd is this clever, they could also bias selection towards NAMs and Women simply by the structure of the blind auditions themselves. Take advantage of well known cognitive biases such as anchoring, or schedule auditions such that the applicants are nonrepresentative in any given audition period.

      Then beyond the audition stage there’s the simple facts of negotiating terms of employment. This provides another opportunity for the SJW agenda to weasel its way into hiring, and I don’t see any possible way to avoid bias at this stage of selection, as by now you know who the person is that you’ve selected and they are going to argue terms on their own personal merits.

      Panther of the Blogocube

      June 17, 2018 at EST pm

      • The big claim in HR these days is that women are more detail oriented, conscientious and predictable. Of course, they are such herd animals they have a hard time seeing anything that doesn’t receive social endorsement.

        Curle

        June 18, 2018 at EST am

      • Even without doing any research on the subject, I’m pretty confident that the orchestra selection process favors women over men in terms of who gets an audition. Because one of the dirty little secrets of life is that people prefer to have contact with women, especially young women. To put it another way, life as a young woman is life on super-easy mode, particularly if you are somewhat attractive.

        I myself have a daughter in college and it’s amazing how much her professors are falling over eachother to give her special opportunities. It’s also amazing how feminists have managed to convince everyone that there is rampant discrimination against girls in STEM when in reality they are 180 degrees wrong.

        fortaleza84

        June 18, 2018 at EST am

  35. “Right, this is what I’ve been saying for a long time, getting promoted at corporations is more about looking good, being liked by those who can promote you, and creating the perception that you’re senior manager material than doing any real work or creating real value.”

    Regarding the point about being liked, I languished at a low level for years at my CPA firm just because I had a manager who happened to not like me even though everyone else did. After she left and I started working with other managers, everyone was like, “Holy crap, Jokah Macpherson is really great, how come we didn’t know about this?” and I have been moving up fast (my salary has increased more in the last 2 years than it did in the previous 10). Although I’m glad things are finally working out, the experience dealt a huge blow to me ever having faith in workplace success being in one’s control and not being subject to arbitrary chance; I’m still basically the same guy I was under the old manager.

    Regarding the point about creating the perception that you’re a senior manager, even though I’m an accountant, I’d say in my current role that at least 50% of what I do at work is ‘project charisma’.

    Jokah Macpherson

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

  36. Remember how when SB 1070 was going on all that Sailer wanted to talk about was Jewish comic book heros?

    Well now that the border crisis is going on, all Lion wants to talk about is Asians being discriminated from college.

    We should be talking about nothing except for the family separation at the border until public interest in this story dies down.

    Otis the Sweaty

    June 16, 2018 at EST pm

    • I’ve written so many blog posts about Trump. Don’t you get tired?

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 16, 2018 at EST pm

      • Jared Kushner has recently become a favorite character of commentary regarding legacy admissions at Harvard, and how they should be eliminated in favor of only test scores for those who want to get in.

        JS

        June 17, 2018 at EST pm

  37. If US News penalized the move by both pondering the average sat score downward (for example by giving a 25th score to all non reported score) and not including in the selectivity ratio the application from students who don’t report scores, they’ll stop immediately.

    If on the contrary, they don’t move. Then average Sat and selectivity will be artificially improved.

    US News are the one who will decide …

    Bruno

    June 17, 2018 at EST pm

    • Yes, good point. You can bet that UChicago spent a lot of time and money trying to anticipate how this move would affect their rankings.

      fortaleza84

      June 18, 2018 at EST am

  38. “Right, this is what I’ve been saying for a long time, getting promoted at corporations is more about looking good, being liked by those who can promote you, and creating the perception that you’re senior manager material than doing any real work or creating real value. The complete opposite of how libertarian economists think the world works.”

    None of that is at odds with how libertarian economists think.

    Dain

    June 17, 2018 at EST pm

  39. Welcome to University of Chicago Community College. We have an inclusive atmosphere for learning.
    Earn your degree in Journalism, Gardening and our ever popular non-credit courses for older students.
    We realize that grades are not a true test of College Material. We accept life experience as credit and offer financing for students of low income backgrounds. Visit our website or come into our new office at the mall.

    Joshua Sinistar

    June 17, 2018 at EST pm

    • ‘Life experience’. Still hard to believe we’ve sunk so low. When America’s obituary is written I hope a section is devoted to the invention of the life experience degree.

      Curle

      June 18, 2018 at EST am

  40. Robert Hutchins, former President of the U of C must be turning over in his grave. By the way, if some of you here don’t know the story of Robert Hutchins and how he tried to revive the liberal arts by making the U of C a school dedicated to true learning and not just career training, read as many books as you can find on the subject, including the several bios written about Hutchins. It’s a fascinating story. I went through a Hutchins phase some years ago and collected all these books. I learned a lot about the history of American education from this project. I also learned a lot about the social history of the 20th century from it. One of the most educational projects I ever embarked on.

    maryk

    June 18, 2018 at EST pm

    • I once read an article written by a Chicagoan with a surname denoting “guido” who lamented the fact that many New Yorkers who move into the Windy City are in fact liberals, the smug types as he called them found ubiquitously in the Northern Side of the city and Uni of Chicago as their learning center. It turns that this man, lives in the far western reaches of the city, the boring suburbia of the working class types of the midwest, that one finds in the show “Roseanne”, or what I call outlying proles on this blog, whose remote homes hug around the city central known as Manhattan.

      JS

      June 19, 2018 at EST am


Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: