Lion of the Blogosphere

Yes, we need to do something about dumb proles who borrow money for vacations

Many commenters’ reaction to the previous post was joyous schadenfreude that some of the dumb proles would face financial ruin when they lose their job and can’t pay back the 20%+ interest rate loan for their unnecessary vacation.

You should be ashamed of yourselves. People are born stupid because of their genes, they don’t magically become smart because of life lessons learned. Don’t become an SJW who thinks that with the right “education” they will become great scientists, only replacing college education with school-of-hard-knocks education.

Furthermore, susceptibility to peer pressure is also genetic, related to the personality factor called “agreeableness.” Only those with low agreeableness (like Donald Trump) are able to resist the siren call of peer pressure that says they are a loser unless they go on an expensive vacation.

Only people with high IQ and low agreeableness have true free will, the rest of the masses need to be benevolently directed towards self-beneficial behavior and not be handed nooses that they can use to hang themselves.

And then when the economy crashes because everyone is over-levered and financial institutions have to be bailed out again because they are too big to fail, it’s YOUR TAXES that will be used to pay for the bailouts! So yes, you are doing yourself a favor by supporting laws that protect the dumb proles from themselves.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

June 22, 2018 at EST am

Posted in Economics, Proles

130 Responses

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  1. Of course stupid proles shouldn’t take vacations they can’t pay for, but the government stepping in and banning these sorts of practices rarely works out better.

    Some Guy

    June 22, 2018 at EST am

    • “but the government stepping in and banning these sorts of practices rarely works out better”

      An unproven libertarian talking point, just like saying “immigrants benefit the economy” and “diversity is our strength!”

      When the government stepped in and banned smoking in restaurants and bars, everything worked out a LOT BETTER!

      With just a simple law to outlaw interest rates more than a certain percent above the prime lending rate, then the credit available for prole vacations would dry up.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 22, 2018 at EST am

      • OK, Lion, call me Aspergery, but the following is Economics 101:

        If you tax something, you get less of it.
        If you subsidize something, you get more of it.

        So ask yourself: how could these principles be applied to keep proles from harming themselves and putting the burden on the rest of us?

        njguy73

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • A ban would be unworkable, but as Lion points out, interest rate caps would help. You could also set up “bankruptcy lite,” i.e. anyone can file for it and wipe out all contractual debt except for the original mortgage on your house. That would make lenders much more cautious about letting people run up large amounts of credit card debt.

      fortaleza84

      June 22, 2018 at EST am

      • Personal bankruptcy should be trivially easy and on terms highly favorable to the borrower, including total discharge of student loan debt and mortgage debt. That’s really the solution to this whole line of discussion, not usury laws or regulations on lenders. People who can use credit responsibly will get it, but those who can’t will simply wreck their credit ratings and not get to borrow again. Predatory institutions like University Loan departments will have to actually consider whether the individual they’re loaning to will be able and willing to pay the loan.

        bobbybobbob

        June 22, 2018 at EST am

      • I agree with you 95%. My only quibble is that when someone buys a house, it’s reasonable that the mortgage loan will be secured by the house and if the buyer defaults, the bank gets to seize the house. I do agree that second mortgages, home equity lines of credit, etc., should be easily dischargeable in bankruptcy. The practical effect of this will be to put predatory lenders out of business. Along with a lot of wedding photographers.

        “Predatory institutions like University Loan departments will have to actually consider whether the individual they’re loaning to will be able and willing to pay the loan.”

        Yes, if it’s coupled with scaling back government student loan programs. I think an additional result will be that universities will have to drastically cut tuition and stop wasting money on class A facilities, diversity hires, and other nonsense. Which is fine.

        Before generous student loans became widely available, it was possible to work your way through college waiting tables part time during the school year and full time during the summer. Now it’s impossible.

        fortaleza84

        June 22, 2018 at EST am

      • These are large sector %’s of the economy. It will happen very slowly if at all (until the crash). A 1% shock to the economy (ie a restructuring) is a recession and Congress’s short term voting nature will mean no politician wants to be on the chopping block.

        What we need is term limits for the house of representatives and an extension of their term lengths from 2 years to 4 years, so that they aren’t constantly worried about raising money for reelection.

        They can obviously fuck their constituents with longer terms as well, but it’s more likely you will be voted out for voting badly on immigration in year 1 than a recession in year 1 that ends in year 2 and prosperity in year 4 (people vote on economics based on their financial position today – to maintain their status quo).

        This way bad decisions get punished and good decisions get rewarded. Occasionally you will get year 3 recessions which overlap with election years, but in theory only 1/3 of the house should ever be in that position since the seats are not aligned cyclically.

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

      • On second thought, its not the term lengths that make these people constantly stab their voters in the back. It’s because they are vermin. You cant fix a rat.

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

    • Consider:

      * Truancy laws.
      * Mandatory vaccinations for school children.
      * Collision insurance for all drivers.
      * Corrected vision tests for all drivers.
      * D.U.I. laws.
      * Outlawing leaded gasoline.
      * Emissions tests.
      * Mandatory use of mufflers.
      * Mandatory under-ride bars for semi-trucks.
      * Prosecuting people who collect rainwater (by damming up rivers and streams that run across their land).
      * Noise ordinances.
      * The 2002 FTC investigation of the Psychic Readers Network.
      * The 1989 conviction of Jim Bakker for 24 counts of fraud.

      How much of this stuff do we really want to back off from? I’m willing to keep all of it.

      Milton Friedman made some good arguments against mandatory safety equipment on cars. In his ideal libertarian society, those arguments may have made sense. However, in our society, when someone is horribly burned in an auto accident because they didn’t want to spend a few cents more for a better gas tank, the general public, as taxpayers, ends up footing the bill for their medical care. The costs to the general public quickly outweigh the savings to poor people with low future time orientation.

      Maybe society should draw the line a little tighter on loan sharking:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loan_shark

      It’s also the general public that pays for major financial disruptions. We saw that in 2008. Until we figure out how to stop privatizing profit while socializing risk; risk management is a matter of public concern and therefore public policy.

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      June 22, 2018 at EST am

    • In the bygone times, how many people went to underworld loan sharks to borrow money for expensive vacations?

      Zenit

      June 22, 2018 at EST am

      • “In the bygone times, how many people went to underworld loan sharks to borrow money for expensive vacations?”

        I can’t actually imagine that happening. Is this some dumb libertarian argument, like “well if it wasn’t for legal loansharking, they’d empower mafia loansharks.”

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • It’s not a libertarian argument, it’s a documented fact. Sailer has mentioned it. That being said, people won’t borrow for vacations.

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

  2. Even if you have a high IQ and aren’t all that susceptible to peer pressure, there’s a pretty good chance you will marry a woman who is susceptible to peer pressure. And 99.9% of women are extremely sensitive to social pressure. Even if you are a traditional man who wears the pants at all times, it’s difficult to reign in an overspending wife.

    Anyway, it’s counterproductive to let people borrow money for positional goods. This includes vacations, of course. It also includes fancy parties like weddings or bar mitzvahs or sweet 16s. Because what happens is people compete with each other in a never ending rat race, bidding up prices and raising the bar for what is acceptable.

    fortaleza84

    June 22, 2018 at EST am

    • Anyway, it’s counterproductive to let people borrow money for positional goods. This includes vacations, of course. It also includes fancy parties like weddings or bar mitzvahs or sweet 16s. Because what happens is people compete with each other in a never ending rat race, bidding up prices and raising the bar for what is acceptable.

      I agree.

      Magnavox

      June 22, 2018 at EST am

      • In my experience the most indebted people are younger couples with kids. They either support joint spending, or bargain for what each wants to buy (you can have x if I can have y). And then blame the other when it gets out of hand, of course.

        Mrs Stitch

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  3. Why does Lion hate the proles so much? I have my reasons (they talk too much, general mean spiritedness), I’d like to hear his.

    Ronald McDonald

    June 22, 2018 at EST am

    • Proles are generally not deep thinkers.

      JS

      June 22, 2018 at EST am

      • You gonna hate people who are not deep thinkers now? Proles mostly function on their level and that’s a good thing.

        All you have to do is to function on your level and takes the responsibility for your own problems. You gonna have much less problems when you do that.

        Proles are the good guys, but the government, the Wall Street, the media and the Hollywood ruin them. A corporate fascist state is the only solution for the white race in today’s toxic culture. Obviously the movement doesn’t need to be called fascist. I’m just using this term to make it clear what its ideology should be.

        Yakov

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • No, the question is, why does Lion lash out at MikeCA for presenting a contrary view, and let fortaleza get away with (repeatedly) writing unproveable slanders like, “Even if you have a high IQ and aren’t all that susceptible to peer pressure, there’s a pretty good chance you will marry a woman who is susceptible to peer pressure. And 99.9% of women are extremely sensitive to social pressure. ”

      The hatred for women on this website is poisonous.

      Newsflash: everybody is susceptible to peer pressure. Has no one here ever heard of gangs? What is male bonding other than peer pressure?

      Being the fact-oriented sort, I have tried to find out whether men or women carry more debt. There are a lot of crappy websites, so who knows:

      https://www.bankrate.com/finance/debt/men-women-and-debt-does-gender-matter.aspx

      gothamette

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • I agree that women are more susceptible to peer pressure. But men are bigger risk takers, and taking on debt is risky. Plus the men could be in debt because they are strapped from paying alimony or child support.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • You have no proof of this. You think think it.

        gothamette

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Lion’s comment approval is haphazard at best. Sometimes I wonder why he manually approves comments at all since so many unnecessarily nasty ones come through. If he allowed pre approved commenters, and blocked those who offend him the most, the net effect would probably be about the same.

        Re bourdain: I have now watched more episodes and must redact some of my previous opinions. There is definitely something ‘off’ about him emotionally/ psychologically but his heart is in the right place. I get the sense in some episodes he’s being dicked around by the director/ producers. For instance in the congo episode he ‘has’ to slaughter, feather and cook chickens in the middle of the night on the congo river because there’s no refrigeration. But the next morning egg cartons and cans of spam miraculously appear for breakfast. You can see how pissed he is during the chicken incident and I doubt the orchestrated drama was of his doing. He also frequently makes references to depression and self loathing.

        toomanymice

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • You can’t quantify “susceptibility to peer pressure,” so it can’t be “proven.” But should I on that basis conclude that teenagers aren’t any more susceptible than elderly people? It’s been my consistent experience that women are more conformist than men, less likely to rebel against the messages that come out of the idiot box. There’s a reason why women’s clothes cost more than men’s….

        Hwite

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • “I agree that women are more susceptible to peer pressure. But men are bigger risk takers, and taking on debt is risky.”

        I agree with all of this. Another factor is that women are more likely to have someone to turn to to help them pay down their debt, i.e. a husband who earns a good deal more than them. Another factor is that men who are stupid and short-sighted are much more likely to end up dead or in jail (and thus debt-free) than women who are stupid and short-sighted.

        How all these factors play together, I have no idea. But I do know (and everyone knows) that women are much more sensitive to social pressure than men

        In everyday life, you have to state facts like this in a way that is flattering to women. For example “men are much more likely to engage in socially inappropriate behavior than women.” Because the gynocracy tends to freak out about any observation which casts women in a negative light. They are “unprovable slanders.”

        Fortunately this blog is a nice escape from the constraints of every day life.

        fortaleza84

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • “You can’t quantify ‘susceptibility to peer pressure,’ so it can’t be ‘proven.'”

        Actually you can, through social psychology experiments in which people are put into phony group settings (the other group members are actually the experimenter’s confederates) and observing whether peoples’ observations and opinions conform to those expressed by other supposed group members.

        If you look at some of these studies (by searching “conformity” and “sex,”) you will see that study after study confirms what everyone knows: That women are more susceptible to social pressure than men. Of course the studies generally attempt to minimize the difference and explain in it ways that are flattering to women but for the most part they don’t deny reality.

        Another interesting fact is that there is an actual clinical phenomenon of mass hysteria. i.e. where one person imagines that she is ill and suddenly dozens of other people start experiencing the same symptoms through some kind of social domino effect. Almost invariably, the people involved in such incidents are women, usually young women.

        Anyway, my point is that Lion’s criteria are not enough. Even among people who are intelligent and iconoclastic, it’s still common for people to borrow money for positional goods like expensive vacations due to marriage. I would know, since my wife did exactly that — running up $80,000 in credit card debt as she spent money on expensive haircuts, a trip to Europe with the children, manicures, etc. And that’s beyond the thousands of dollars I borrowed to pay for other nonsense.

        fortaleza84

        June 23, 2018 at EST am

      • “The hatred for women on this website is poisonous.”

        I agree. I think a lot of the men on this forum are hanging around with the wrong type of women, judging from many of the comments.

        Rosenmops

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

      • The idea that this blog harbors anything resembling ‘hatred’ of women is laughable. Taking an honest abd natter of fact accounting of some of womens’ flaws is not ‘hatred,’

        Abandon Ship

        June 24, 2018 at EST am

      • “I think a lot of the men on this forum are hanging around with the wrong type of women, judging from many of the comments.”

        This is what’s known as the NAWALT argument, and it inevitably comes up when female nature is discussed online. “NAWALT” stands for Not All Women Are Like That and I think it’s worth explaining the underlying fallacy at work.

        See, everyone — male or female — has instincts to misbehave towards others (although not everyone acts on those instincts). This includes male instincts to mistreat women and female instincts to mistreat men. What’s happened over the last few generations is that our society has gotten so dominated by feminism and gynocentrism that sanctions for female misbehavior towards men have become essentially toothless even as male misbehavior towards women has gotten more severely punished.

        It’s a bit shocking that there are essentially no consequences for a wife who decides to get pregnant from another man; lie about it to her husband; and tricking him into supporting another man’s child. But that’s the way things are in a society which puts the well-being, needs, and desires of women high above those of men.

        Anyway, it’s true that some women are well-behaved even in the absence of societal constraints, just like some wild animals are well behaved in the absence of constraints. But you are taking a significant risk associating with a leopard which is not in a cage. For years Sigfried & Roy had no problems handling these types of wild animals until one day they had a big problem. So too with women. With no cage of societal restraint, they are a danger to themselves and others. And even a woman who seems like a good, decent person, can suddenly turn on her man with no obvious red flags.

        Probably this comment will be interpreted as misogyny, but keep in mind that I am not letting men off the hook here. Men have the instinct to mistreat women, which is why we need laws against sexual assault, financial consequences for wealthy men who “trade in” their wives, and so on. And in fact we do have such laws. We just need to do the same thing for women.

        fortaleza84

        June 24, 2018 at EST am

    • Lion is a snob driven by contempt for those below him and envy of those above him. These unhealthy emotions are a result of his disappointment with how his life has turned out.

      Gozo

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Last I checked he was making neighborhood of 150k. I would say his life turned out all right. But if he is bitter on not making 500k, no one can help him.

        mpt

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • My sense is that Lion is a victim of the “but I did everything right” syndrome. In the past, a reasonably intelligent Jewish boy from a modest background could and would do decently in college; go to law school; and end up with a high status job, a decent salary, be married with children; and live out a comfortable upper middle class life.

        Unfortunately, various changes which are clear in hindsight have made this version of the American dream much harder to obtain. So I think what happened is that Lion got kinda screwed over; wasted a lot of time and money; and is somewhat bitter about it. I’m just speculating though.

        “Last I checked he was making neighborhood of 150k. I would say his life turned out all right. ”

        Lion doesn’t talk about his romantic life much, but I think part of the problem is that in NYC, being a 150k a year computer programmer is not that special in terms or attracting women. What’s happened is that a huge shortage of eligible women has developed in the West so there are a lot of lonely guys. Again, I’m just speculating.

        fortaleza84

        June 23, 2018 at EST am

      • “What’s happened is that a huge shortage of eligible women has developed in the West ”

        What are you talking about? Why would there be a shortage of women in the West? China has a shortage of women.

        Rosenmops

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

      • “What are you talking about? Why would there be a shortage of women in the West?”

        There are a number of factors in play, including the rise of single motherhood; the obesity epidemic; lowered birth rates; improved infant mortality rates; lowered workplace mortality rates (including military casualties); and reduced murder rates. Probably the rise of online dating has played a role since it’s much easier now for the most desirable men to simultaneously date multiple women.

        fortaleza84

        June 24, 2018 at EST am

      • This is ridiculous! There is enough women, even Romney found binders full of women, when he wanted to. You gotta settle on your level, that it. If only black transvestites are interested in you, all you need to do is to look at yourself in the mirror. This is very, very simple.

        Yakov

        June 24, 2018 at EST am

      • “This is ridiculous! There is enough women”

        Not enough eligible women. By “eligible” I mean single, childless, fertile, and not obese. I was surprised a bit myself to learn it as I have been married for many years now. But the dating market has changed quite a bit over the years.

        fortaleza84

        June 24, 2018 at EST pm

    • Lion doesn’t hate them any more than the average middle class person who pays more for housing in order to avoid them. You wanna see hate? Look at the libertarians.

      Tanturn

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • By the way, with prole drifting, the middle class is the new prole class, and the prole class is the new lumpen proles with 21st century technology, which kind of mitigates their pariah status, where they appear to be better than their cohorts from the past, due to technological advances.

        JS

        June 24, 2018 at EST am

  4. Leftists are always going on and on about how great it was when we had a 91% top marginal tax rate, i.e. during the 1950s. You know what else we had back in the 1950s?

    – A tightly regulated banking sector, e.g. no branch banking across state lines, separate retail banks and S & Ls, etc. etc.

    – Strict lending standards.

    – No credit cards as understood in the modern sense. Borrowing was something that businesses did, and for consumers it was generally only for big ticket items, e.g. house or car. And the customary down payment for houses and cars was larger back then, 30% IIRC.

    – If you wanted to make a big ticket purchase (TV, appliances) you used what is called the lay-away system, i.e. you paid in installments in advance, and when you had paid in full only then could you take your purchase home. I’ll bet the same system applied to big ticket vacations.

    BTW, to fortaleza84’s point, the spendthrift wife was a staple of 1950s and 1960s TV sitcoms. Try that today. Go ahead. See what would happen.

    Sgt. Joe Friday

    June 22, 2018 at EST am

    • I’d go back to all of that in a moment. Then again, it’s easy for me to say that because I’d get the benefits of all of those things without being rich enough to ever face that 91% marginal tax rate.

      Kyo

      June 22, 2018 at EST am

    • Those official high tax rates were a total joke and nobody actually paid them. Everybody just deducted like crazy. Hence all the wood paneled offices, corporate country club memberships, three martini lunches with steak, and company cars.

      bobbybobbob

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Also, keep in mind the fact that because of inflation, the income at the time that would have put you in that top tax bracket would be the equivalent of over 2 million dollars a year today. And not many people have an income that high, as opposed to capital gains. These CEOs and such derive most of their pay from stock options.

        Hermes

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • the spendthrift wife was a staple of 1950s and 1960s TV sitcoms.

      Not saying you’re wrong but could you give some examples? My memory may be fading, but I don’t remember this theme in the shows I used to watch, e.g., The Donna Reed Show, Bewitched, The Dick Van Dyke Show, Leave it to Beaver, 77 Sunset Strip, etc. Maybe Perry Mason?

      vipltd

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Not exactly a sitcom, but I remember an episode of the Flintstones with the following exchange:

        Barney: My wife takes just a fraction of what I earn.

        Fred: How much?

        Barney: About nine tenths.

        fortaleza84

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Lucy wasted money and failed to pay bills, and Wilma and Betty loved to use those credit cards!

        Gozo

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • njguy73

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • MEH 0910

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • Are Japanese women spendthrifts?

      Japan is a very conformist country.

      I understand why you guys don’t try logic. It might explode your chilly little brains.

      gothamette

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • “Are Japanese women spendthrifts?”

        Yes!

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • No they aren’t.

        gothamette

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Why do you hate women so much? When is that last time you actually interacted with one outside of the internet?

        gothamette

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Today.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • “Are Japanese women spendthrifts?”

        Don’t know, but Japanese women should be expected to conform to Japanese social norms.

        Hwite

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • I’m reminded of an exchange I had with my wife a few years ago. I told her I thought it was likely that wives cheated on their husbands at about the same rate that husbands cheat on their wives. In response, she asked why I hated women so much.

        Unfortunately, Western Culture is permeated with the idea that Women are Wonderful. Even suggesting that women’s behavior is just as bad as men’s is shamed as misogyny/hatred of women.

        fortaleza84

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • It’s funny how women jump on the same shaming language when offended. Inevitably, they insinuate that (1) you are a loser who women avoid in real life; (2) you are physically inadequate; and (3) you hate women.

        fortaleza84

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Gothamette is proof that no matter which side of the isle a woman is on, their political power will always be a threat to societal stability.

        So Gothamette, you consider yourself right wing? How does it feel to be part of the same cancerous seed that is BLM? How does it feel to be part of the same barbarism that’s destroying this country piece by piece until nothing is left but a decaying corpse?

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

    • My mother was a bit of a spendthrift and that broke up the marriage ca 1953. Dad was a saver and investor, but she thought they should live for today and spend more. He wouldn’t tell her how much they had…funny, he ended up sopporting everyone except me a good 40 years after the divorce. My brothers gad lost their jobs in their early 50s.

      Mrs Stitch

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  5. I’ve come across “proles” who use credit cards to pay for rent, utilities and even tax bills. Others dip their 401(k)s as an emergency fund. So yes, they don’t deserve any sympathy from me.

    What’s there to “stop” when America runs on a society solely on consumer spending?

    JS

    June 22, 2018 at EST am

    • Why not legislate no home purchase without 20% downpayment. Then we can get the riffraff to rent and the demographic that has a savings mentality enjoy home ownership. We should encourage more folks to rent anyway so that people can easily move where jobs are and not be tied to their homes.

      mpt

      June 22, 2018 at EST am

      • It’s not just riffraff but prole drifting among the higher classes that Americans look like slobs.

        JS

        June 22, 2018 at EST am

      • Rootedness is an important part of conservatism. People should not be leaving simply for jobs. Jobs should be created in population centers.

        Unfortunately someone said it in another thread: “conservatives always lose, because they are reactionary” the past is dead.

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

    • You can’t make any judgments based on what people buy with credit cards, only with the balance they maintain. Paying for everything possible on a credit card is smart if you’re getting rewards and the merchant doesn’t charge you a fee to use the card.

      Wency

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • I have my credit cards set up so that they get paid automatically from my financial accounts.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Right. People get credit cards because they are a loan. Buy now and pay later.

        JS

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • People use their credit cards in 2 scenarios. Initially, it’s a loan upfront, and people use it with enthusiasm. The subsequent balance paid, becomes an “emergency” scenario, when people don’t want to their debit balance or there is no/enough money in it.

        JS

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • “I have my credit cards set up so that they get paid automatically from my financial accounts.”

        Same here. I also put everything on a card and go months at a time without looking at my accounts. The catch is that I never buy anything unless I really need it. This is partly because I’m pathologically frugal and partly because I’m a minimalist who doesn’t want the clutter. Most people aren’t like that. So this wouldn’t work for them.

        destructure

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • I use my cc to do all that. Then I pay the balance at the end of the cycle. Free hotel points. Bam.

      Wah wah wah

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • The free hotel points come on the backs of proles who don’t pay on time. Likewise they are also paid for by businesses with the 5% merchant fee. Both should be eliminated.

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

  6. I agree. That’s another reason why hogeneous societies are, in general, better because people elite care for each other. They are counterexample with Japanese or UK. There also the case when the elite is foreign.

    Bruno

    June 22, 2018 at EST am

    • That worked so well in Sweden.

      Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

      June 23, 2018 at EST pm

  7. I think it’s long past overdue that people started feeling the consequences for their actions. It’s the only way people learn.

    You overpay for a vacation, house, or car? EAT IT. No bail out.

    You have kids you can’t afford? Tough shit, either they starve or you get another job, get back together with the father, or go back South of the border.

    The problem is shielding people from the natural consequences of their stupid actions. Prevents a natural and necessary weeding. And in punishes the the prudent K-selected savers.

    fakeemail

    June 22, 2018 at EST am

    • I don’t buy this libertarian thing because on top everything is socialized. The rich is the most socialist class. They have won the class struggle.

      Bruno

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • “I don’t buy this libertarian thing because on top everything is socialized. The rich is the most socialist class. They have won the class struggle.”

        You’re actually parroting a critique first made by libertarians decades ago. So you sure bought that.

        Robert

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

    • I think that actually loose credit hurts prudent people since prices for goods and services get bid up. Things like houses and professional school are far more expensive than they need to be because there are so many yahoos in the market, borrowing money and spending it carelessly.

      fortaleza84

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • This is all well and good, but there are also sometimes unhappy consequences that flow from the rich soaking the poor, once the poor get angry. And the rich can try to say, “Well, my terms were all spelled out clearly in this contract,” but the poor didn’t understand the contract. All they understand is that you’re rich, they’re poor, and yet you’re still trying to squeeze them for all they’ve got.

      This recognition is the practical side of noblesse oblige.

      Wency

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • I read a psychological study a while back that showed people naturally have a strong dislike for money lenders and see them as predatory. And this extends to credit card companies today. I’m not saying they’re necessarily wrong. Credit card companies really do some sneaky, nasty things designed to encourage people to run up debts and then hit them with fees and higher rates. Islam actually outlaws usury. I wouldn’t go that far because credit can be a useful tool if used properly. But most people don’t use it properly..

        destructure

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • PS: It’s my understanding that islam pretty much considers all interest to be usury. I didn’t mean to imply that I thought usury should be legal.

        I strongly oppose financing consumer spending. If one has credit card or consumer debt they need to stop spending and pay it off asap. If it were up to me, I’d prohibit all credit except for that used to finance business, education and home ownership. I have mixed feelings about car loans. I would never use a car loan to buy a car that I couldn’t afford. But it makes sense to take out a loan to buy a modest 2 year old Toyota Camry or Corolla with low miles at 4% interest. Then park your cash in a vanguard index fund at 7%. They’re a great car for the money. And you’ll come out 3% ahead for the life of the loan.

        destructure

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

      • Maturity transformation is way to abstract for most people to understand. It probably requires an IQ of at least 100 if not 115. At the very least you need to be able to do arithmetic very well and have a knowledge of exponents.

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

  8. If the proles are not competent to run their own lives, why are they competent to elect a government that runs everything? The kind of people who borrow money for vacations will not vote for candidates because they agree where they stand on most important issues. They will pick a candidate because “He looks like cowboy. He is tough, he will protect me.” or “He looks like billionaire. He is rich, he will make me rich too.”

    Zenit

    June 22, 2018 at EST am

    • “If the proles are not competent to run their own lives, why are they competent to elect a government that runs everything?”

      Liberals, previously champion of one-man-one-vote, are now starting to feel that way after the election of Trump.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • When elections go their way they call it “democracy”. When elections don’t go their way they call it “populism”. The billionaires and political elite have all been fretting about populism lately. How dare the peasants not recognize their divine right right to rule!

        Speaking of divine right, even Francis has been criticizing populism recently. Which is ironic because he was heralded as a “populist pope” when he took over. Of course, he was never a true populist but a socialist. Commie pope is a commie.

        destructure

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  9. Aspirational lifestyle conditioning is eugenic. If the proles don’t aspire to going on great vacations then they will just sit at home and pump out more offspring.

    One of the most eugenic influences on Brazilian society was when televisions became widely available. All of the poor folks in the favelas started idolizing and copying the soap opera stars, this brought down fertility as the small family of 1 or 2 kids became aspirational. Can you imagine how many problems this has eased in Brazil?

    DataExplorer

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • Using TV to encourage good behavior is a great idea! Unfortunately, TV in the U.S. now promotes promiscuous sex, homosexuality, etc.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Whatever sells in America is king. Hypocrisy has no bearing, ‘cept for a few illegal goods and immoral acts, business is usual.

        If businesses like H&R Block provides both tax saving advice and push refund loans, then so be it!

        JS

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  10. My personal feeling is that most of this problem would take care of itself if we just didn’t have social promotion in the schools. I’ll bet there’s a huge overlap between the credit card overspenders, and people who couldn’t graduate from 8th grade without that administrative push. On a personal note, I used to know a young lawyer who said to me, in a self-satisfied way, “if you aren’t living above your means you aren’t living.” When he said that, he was working for a high-flying San Francisco firm. Now, he’s working at an obscure small firm in San Antonio.

    Marty

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  11. Bravo Lion.

    CMC

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  12. People shouldn’t spend money on the lottery, or take high interest loans to pay for nonsense, but one of the better arguments for allowing such things is that it strikes a blow against organized crime. In the real world, a criminal black market does not spring up over night, and attitudes take time to shift, so while I’m inclined to cap interest rates in the current environment, I would not be shocked if we’d need to later increase the ceilings. Social policy is often a matter of choosing the least bad option.

    As for Trump’s low agreeableness — I disagree. Sort of. Trump’s held almost every position on every issue. He’s ignorant. The last person to speak on a topic often has his mind. I think that’s how his remarks about asset forfeiture were explained by a commenter on this blog. Or, after the Parkland shooting Pence said we need to respect due process, and then Trump piped up that the cops just need to seize guns immediately and then go through due process. Or when Dianne Fienstein floated the idea of signing a clean DACA bill immediately. He’s low in agreeableness on things that he knows. He’s not going to eat brussels sprouts because Melanie says “they’re good for you.”

    Vince

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • “As for Trump’s low agreeableness — I disagree. Sort of. Trump’s held almost every position on every issue. He’s ignorant. The last person to speak on a topic often has his mind.”

      Your attempts at explaining political Kabuki theatre are moronic. This cluelessness is a large reason why the left lost the election, and comments like this show they still can’t learn. You are living in a fantasy world. Unless you start making accurate predictions, nobody has any reason to read your “explanations”.

      Anon

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Noone can make accurate predictions. If you think you can you’re just deluding yourself about what you thought would happen before things did.

        Magnavox

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • I made a claim, and I followed it up with evidence. You made a claim, and followed it up with other disconnected assertions. The only prediction you can infer from my comment is that Trump will continue to act erratically. Now maybe this is “delusion” and Trump’s not acting erratically at all but is playing some kind of 1024D chess, and if you believe that, then you reside in a fantasy world.

        Vince

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  13. In Arthur Hailey’s 1968 novel Airport (the basis for the first entry of the 1970s movie series), one of the main characters is a suicidal failure who plans to blow up a Rome-bound airliner so that his wife can collect on a large insurance policy.

    In the late 1960s, there was no airport security as we know it today. The guy in the novel (and the movie) simply packs a bomb in his briefcase and strolls onto the plane. He is detected only because, by chance, a veteran Customs agent with superb observational skills just happens to see him board the plane and pegs him as a dangerous man. The pilots eventually receive a radio warning and attempt to stop him. Drama ensues.

    Being totally broke, the mad bomber purchases the ticket on credit. When making the reservation, he deliberately misspells his last name to avoid any problems with the credit check. He pawns his wife’s mother’s wedding ring – a family heirloom – to get the money for the down payment.

    The first Airport movie has a real old-time Hollywood feel. The next three movies in the series range from silly to unintentionally hilarious:

    Stan Adams

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  14. Trump is doing a live conference with “angle moms” (parents who have lost children to illegal aliens. God damn, I love this guy. HE FIGHTS!

    SWPL2

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • I’m sorry that your life is such a mess that you have to cling to such ridiculous fantasies. I really am. But that’s just what they are: fantasies.

      Magnavox

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • Angle moms..l

      Mrs Stitch

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • Angel moms.

      Rosenmops

      June 23, 2018 at EST pm

  15. Does looser credit drive up house prices too? I’m a little too hazy on economics to work out whether this would be the case, but certainly looking back in the UK house prices really seemed to start rising sharply in the early ’80’s, not long after the ‘big bang’ which deregulated the City of London and paved the way for more relaxed controls on credit. It would seem to make sense–higher availability of credit would increase demand, which would push up the house prices without a corresponding increase in supply.

    prolier than thou

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • I’ve got to think there’s a connection between loose credit and rising home prices. Back in the early 2000s when “liars loans” were popular here in southern California anybody with a pulse could get a loan, and most connect the 20% year-over-year increases in housing prices to all that money chasing a much more slowly increasing supply of homes. Steve Sailer has written extensively about this.

      Sgt. Joe Friday

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • “Does looser credit drive up house prices too?”

      Absolutely, Sub-prime loans is one of the things that caused the housing bubble of the early 2000s. It seemed like everyone was into real estate speculation and flipping houses. It was crazy.

      destructure

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • America has a measly 200 years or so of human history, and it sets the morale of the world of what is noble and what is not. Is flipping homes a prole or noble act?

        Ridiculous!

        JS

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Again, there was no such thing as a sub-prime loan. The housing market collapsed because the federal reserve raised the federal funds rate, causing the prime rate to soar over 8%.

        map

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • Of course they do. It’s not how much does it cost totsl now, it’s howmuchamonth.

      I bought my first house in 1990 for $21,000. Interest rate was 12%. There were cheap houses all over the place and the average shlub had to do all these workarounds to buy. FHA and VA loans were the holy Grail.

      I put 20% down and got a conventional. My payment with insurance and taxes was $223. I soon refinanced to 7%.

      Good times.

      Mrs Stitch

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  16. Why proles? It’s the bankers and the politicians who plunge the world into periodic crises and wars. Look what the did to this poor country! Will they suffer any consequences ever? Not unless there is a revolution to put the end to this outrage and send them to the Gulag where they all rightfully belong.

    I say, leave the proles alone and go after the elites.

    Yakov

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • “Why proles? I say, leave the proles alone and go after the elites.”

      I agree with you in spirit. The problem is that, from an economic standpoint, the way you stop an activity is by going after demand not supply. In this case, demand for the loans is the proles. To put it in other terms, you’ll never stop prostitution and drugs by going after the supply i.e. prostitutes and dealers. You stop it by going after the demand i.e. their customers.

      destructure

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • “you’ll never stop prostitution and drugs by going after the supply i.e. prostitutes and dealers. You stop it by going after the demand i.e. their customers.”

        How’s that working out?

        njguy73

        June 23, 2018 at EST am

      • That’s some nice uninformed reckoning you’re doing there.

        Magnavox

        June 23, 2018 at EST am

      • “How’s that working out?”

        It works out great when they actually do it.

        destructure

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

      • It just occurred to me that you probably object because you’re either dopehead or a libertarian extremist who wants to legalize drugs. Amirite?

        destructure

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

    • Russia tried that in 1917 and is still paying the price.

      Peter Akuleyev

      June 24, 2018 at EST am

      • I’m not suggesting that elites should be eliminated as a class. It’s a corporate
        state, which will be guided by the interests of the nation as a supreme princiipal, that I’m advocating.

        Yakov

        June 24, 2018 at EST am

  17. “Only people with high IQ and low agreeableness have true free will . . . ”

    No one has free will, much less true free will.

    ice hole

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • Lion mistakes his contrarianism and resentment for reason and free will. It’s actually quite pathetic.

      Magnavox

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Lion also has a sense of humor, something some commenters lack…

        Hwite

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • And you mistake your constant black pilling and negativity for insight and informed commentary.

        Do you have kids or a job or anything to even remotely suggest that you are doing something to Make America Great Again? Or are you waiting for a politician to come and solve your problems and also find you a conservative wife and then fuck her several times for you until she pops out three white kids?

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

      • Thats actually a good comment. First time for everything I guess.

        Magnavox

        June 24, 2018 at EST pm

      • Glad you enjoyed it. Now go MAGA.

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        June 25, 2018 at EST am

  18. Seriously, Lion – your comment lines are the misogynist equivalent of Sailer’s vicious anti-Semitism – which, ironically, Fortaleza ignores. I gotta laugh.

    If you want to actually learn something other than how to be a pissing little woman-hating whiner like Fortaleza, read Eamonn Fingleton’s articles about how Japan suppresses spending, and why their personal debt is so low. Same deal in China.

    The culture of the US is one of extravagance. It’s based on getting yours, pigging out, eating to excess. So stupid people lose control. We need to put mechanisms in place to control them. This has nothing to do with gender.

    gothamette

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • “The culture of the US is one of extravagance. (..) This has nothing to do with gender.”

      The first part is very true. And there are plenty of men who spend out of control. But there’s a gender aspect you may not realize since you’ve never dated women. There’s a tendency for women to financially exploit men, especially when it comes to spending. I dated a couple of women who couldn’t spend my money fast enough and didn’t care how it affected my finances. I’ve seen lots of wives do this to their husbands, too. The husbands are working themselves to death and the wives are blowing it as fast as they can. Fortunately, my wife is nothing like that. She’s almost as frugal as I am. And while I won’t say I married her because of it, there are other women who I stopped seeing because of their attitudes toward spending.
      **
      I strongly disagree with Fortaleza on promiscuity and where to draw the line on sexual harassment/assault. But, after he caught my attention, I started reading his comments and find him otherwise very smart and reasonable.

      destructure

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Destructure is smart. I personally only married after we exchanged me and my fiancee’s credit scores. A spendthrift spouse (no matter how hot) will ruin a marriage.
        You can f$$$ hot/ugly/smart/dumb/slut/not slut but should always marry smart. Marriage should never be “just about love”. We are not peasants.

        mpt

        June 22, 2018 at EST pm

      • Correction: we are not elites. Especially not TOOS elites.

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

    • ” pissing little woman-hating whiner”

      Feminist shaming language spotted.

      fortaleza84

      June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  19. Only people with high IQ and low agreeableness have true free will

    Free will does not exist, not even for those people.

    JayMan

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  20. Has it ever occurred to anyone that this story is actually fake?

    Think about it.

    How exactly would you determine that someone is going into obscene amounts of debt at a high interest rate to go on vacation, when pretty much everything that people buy is bought on credit cards? What exactly is the logistics determining how any study like this is created?

    I call bogus on this completely.

    map

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  21. Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all correct — usury should be banned.

    Artifact

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

    • An outright ban on interest makes perfect sense in a society with a fixed energy/resource supply. Capital can never be loaned to generate true productivity growth in a simple farming economy. The total wealth is effectively fixed and only the lender and possibly the loanee can ever benefit at others’ expense. The main use for loans was waging warfare and stealing other people’s stuff, hence the prohibitions.

      After certain populations escaped the classical malthusian trap with modern energy resources the equation changed. Without lending the industrial revolution would have been impossible.

      bobbybobbob

      June 23, 2018 at EST am

  22. Poll finds Lion is leading candidate for mayor of Jerusalem!!

    https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Poll-finds-Lion-leading-Jerusalem-mayor-candidate-560641

    Lion, is this you when you’re not blogging?!

    Artifact

    June 22, 2018 at EST pm

  23. While I am not unsympathetic to the need for protecting proles, I think that, historically, these laws haven’t been too successful. Remember Prohibition? A century ago, alcohol abuse was a severe problem, but the cure was worse than the disease. How about the drug situation – how are those laws working out? Speaking of outlawing usury, just what should the maximum rate be, and why? Should the rate be indexed, and, if so, to what? The federal funds rate? Treasury bonds? Short term or long term? And who gets to decide? You? Me? The Prez? The Fed? It’s like another one of the liberal’s great ideas, the minimum wage. Just what should it be, and why? If a small increase in the minimum wage is good, is a big one better? If not why not? You can’t protect the stupid against stupidity.

    BTW, I was in Jerusalem last week – very nice. Americans and Trump are very popular there. Lion, you’d be a great mayor.

    Black Death

    June 23, 2018 at EST am

    • “A century ago, alcohol abuse was a severe problem, but the cure was worse than the disease. How about the drug situation – how are those laws working out? “

      People need to understand the economics behind prohibition. Normally, free market competition keeps profits in check. If profits are high then competitors enter the market to increase supply and drive them back down. But when something is outlawed that doesn’t happen. Instead, organized crime takes over to supply the banned product or service on the black market.

      Since there’s no free market the profits frequently reach 100%. With profits like that, gangs use violence to protect their turf from competitors who would drive down their margins. That’s why there’s so much violence between drug cartels and gangs. That’s why they were killing each other during Prohibition. It should be obvious that prison won’t stop people who are already killing each other for profits.

      However, if you go after their customers instead then you suppress demand and drive down profit margins. People may be willing to go to prison and kill each other for 100% profit margins. But would they risk that for 10% profit margins? No. Not when they can make similar money doing something less risky.

      The way to stop organized crime is to go after their customers. If there are no customers then they go out of business.

      destructure

      June 23, 2018 at EST pm

      • Destructure, you’re right. Prison won’t stop people who are already killing each other for profits.

        It won’t stop people who profit off the killing and who while doing so, don’t risk death.

        So let’s put the fear of death in the death profiteers.

        As the great George Carlin said:

        “Drug dealers aren’t afraid to die. They’re already killing each other every day on the streets by the hundreds. Drive-bys, gang shootings, they’re not afraid to die. Death penalty doesn’t mean anything unless you use it on people who are afraid to die. Like… the bankers who launder the drug money. The bankers, who launder, the drug money. Forget the dealers, you want to slow down that drug traffic, you got to start executing a few of these fucking bankers. White, middle class Republican bankers. And I’m not talking about soft, American executions, like lethal injection. I’m talking about fucking crucifixion folks! Let’s bring back crucifixions. A form of capital punishment the Christians and Jews of America can really appreciate. And I’d go a little further, I’d crucify people upside-down. Like Saint Peter, feet up, head down. And naked. I’d have naked upside-down crucifixions on TV once a week at halftime on the Monday Night Football game! Halftime! Monday Night! The Monday Night Crucifixions! You’d have people tuning in, don’t even care about Football! Wouldn’t you like to hear Dan Dierdorf explain why the nails have to go in at a certain angle? And I’ll guarantee you one thing. You start execut- you start nailing one white banker per week to a big wooden cross, you’re going to see that drug traffic begin to slow down pretty fucking quick. Pretty fucking quick- you won’t even be able to buy drugs in schools and prisons anymore!”

        http://www.allthelyrics.com/lyrics/george_carlin/capital_punishment-lyrics-220555.html

        njguy73

        June 23, 2018 at EST pm

  24. People spend money on stupid stuff all the time. Johnny Depp spent $3 million to send his friend’s ashes into orbit. He blew through hundreds of millions more with little to show for it. There is only so much you can do to protect people of all financial strata from themselves, though banning usurious interest rates wouldn’t hurt.

    toomanymice

    June 23, 2018 at EST am

  25. “Only people with high IQ and low agreeableness have true free will, ..”

    Lordy, the commenters have gone wild.

    Lion, how high an IQ and low an agreeableness do you have in mind?

    Robert

    June 23, 2018 at EST pm


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