Lion of the Blogosphere

College, part 3.1

This is an intermission. I liked this paragraph written by Matt Taibbi (whose father Mike my mother fondly recalls meeting):

So here’s the con so far. You must go to college because you’re screwed if you don’t. Costs are outrageously high, but you pay them because you have to, and because the system makes it easy to borrow massive amounts of money. The third part of the con is the worst: You can’t get out of the debt. Since government lenders in particular have virtually unlimited power to collect on student debt – preying on everything from salary to income-tax returns – even running is not an option. And since most young people find themselves unable to make their full payments early on, they often find themselves perpetually paying down interest only, never touching the principal. Our billionaire president can declare bankruptcy four times, but students are the one class of citizen that may not do it even once.

College is certainly a much better deal for students whose parents are rich so they can graduate without any debt.

(It’s unfortunate that the author had to take a stab at Trump, but maybe that was necessary in order to make the article more palatable for the Trump-hating but college-loving mainstream media. Maybe they wouldn’t publish an anti-college article unless it could also be made to appear to be an anti-Trump article. And it’s true that Trump has done nothing for the prole whites who got suckered into college debt they can’t pay off. He hired Betsy Devos to be Secretary of Education, and she makes the problem worse by reversing the Obama Administration’s crack-down on for-profit colleges, which was the only good thing to come out of the Obama Administration.)

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

Posted in Education

160 Responses

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  1. Trump never filed bankruptcy. his companies have.

    Matt Taibbi is a left-wing ideologue who has no idea what he is talking about.

    College debt is a good deal due to low interest (versus car and credit card debt which is much higher) and higher wages and higher employment rate a degree bestows. The left attacks college debt but ignores that credit card and car debt has far more onerous terms and has a negative ROI. (good luck selling a car or a TV for a higher price your paid for it). True, student loan debt cannot be easily discharged in bankruptcy, but the 2005 bankruptcy law made other forms of debt far harder to discharge.
    Matt attended two colleges and an elite prep high school. Just another example of the left doing one thing and saying another. No doubt those degrees helped him become as successful as he is .

    grey enlightenment

    January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

    • College debt, really bad deal, real interest rates much higher than advertised, can’t be discharged in bankruptcy like all other debt.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

      • If you fully finance 5 years of college education through debt, the interest only will be close to 35% of median personal income. Nice.

        My 2¢

        January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Depends on major and how much debt. $100k for a doctorate in theater will have a worse ROI than $100k for a master’s in a STEM subject or finance.

        grey enlightenment

        January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

      • A doctorate or undergrad in theater from Harvard will be much more valuable than a Stem degree from same unless you plan to start your own stem based start up. An investment bank will view you as more desireable for the intellectual diversity/interesting character you bring.

        Anyone that doesn’t know this falls into the prole bucket. Sadly anyone outside the 3-4 major metro areas (and maybe anyone outside New York and DC) is doomed to be prole in their tastes by definition, because those are the cultural/economic centers of the new Roman Empire. There’s even a quote from one of the early American founders: “I must study war so my children can study math.. I must study math so my children can study art… etc” something along those lines.

        I think lion should start an article series on why it’s good to be prole; the term has taken on a pejorative context here and was used in a very pejorative sense by Paul Fussell, but the truth is, being prole today means having better access to desireable feminine women and living in a more homogenous community.

        I realize the term prole here has been extended to include those of upper middle class status in places like the Midwest, but bear in mind they are culturally prole, but not economically prole.

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • its cute that you think DC is par with NYC. Boston maybe. SF maybe. But def not DC…

        uman

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • @ Paul Ryan’s Sickly Old Lap Dog — Your comment about a Harvard theater UG having better luck in OCR than a Harvard STEM major (concentrator? – ha!) is nonsense barring a significant difference in the respective students’ GPAs. No theater PhDs would ever be looking to work at an investment bank.

        @ uman — DC certainly belongs up there with those other cities if you’re compiling a list of where successful Ivy grads end up after college. DC jobs still (can) have a huge amount of cultural and social capital.

        renault

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “No theater PhDs would ever be looking to work at an investment bank.”

        Though there is the fortuitous circumstance of fine arts major Michael Lewis doing just that and launching on a socially useful career explaining Wall Street to we mere mortals.

        Curle

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

    • The federal student loan rate just went up to 5.04% for undergraduate loans, and 6.59% for graduate school. In comparison, three years ago I got a car loan at 2.7%. I think the best rates for car loans in my area now hover around 4%.

      M

      January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

      • As I recall, there were origination fees and other gotchas that resulted in a higher than the stated interest rate.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

      • I got a 0% interest car loan. And credit cards often do 0% interest promotions.

        Monsieur le Baron

        January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

      • That is with a really good credit score. the median is around 9%.

        grey enlightenment

        January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

      • I still owe $10K on my student loan from grad school from 20 years ago. The rate is 2.5% but I get an additional 0.25% discount with auto-pay at $160/mo.

        Also, I estimate half of all student debt was used to cover living expenses not tuition. Living expenses must be paid whether one goes to college or not; living expenses should be pay-as-you-go.

        E. Rekshun

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • The loans at Northwestern University are actually at 11%.

        map

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • “Also, I estimate half of all student debt was used to cover living expenses not tuition.“

        They are also using it to finance trips to Europe.

        Curle

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

    • @Paul Ryan’s Sickly Dog

      “I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain.”

      John Adams said it.

      emanations & penumbras

      January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • He read it, someone else wrote it.

        My 2¢

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “Then my grandchildren, who became effete poetry- and painting-loving weaklings, will be conquered by a more virile nation, and my great-grandchildren will have to study politics and war again…”

        Tarl

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

    • I agree with the argument, but Taibbi isn’t the right messenger. It’s hard to picture anyone in the Trump or Taibbi families filling out a student loan application. But that is class warfare in 21st century America: the millionaires (Hillary, Obama, Taibbi, etc) vs the billionaires.

      Strange times, these. And honestly, that’s what got Trump elected: stepping outside the box and addressing issues of interest to white, blue collar Americans. Whether he will solve these problems or not is moot: he simply put them on the table. Hillary, if I recall correctly, said something about moving against the coal industry, America’s second largest source of electricity. Good policy can be bad politics.

      The Shepherd

      January 14, 2019 at EDT am

  2. I don’t know if anyone in the other threads mentioned this, but . . .

    The only reason to go to college is networking. Being a college student opens access to multiple internships and work study programs across a variety of fields. From doing grunt work in a biology lab to reading scripts at a production company, many foot-in-the-door opportunities emerge at all decent universities. Of course, the opportunities are better at the better schools, but even regional state universities place students in solid careers via internships and similar programs. One of my recent students (a humanities major) landed a solid position at a non-profit thanks to an internship.

    Of course, only 20% of students avail themselves of these lucrative opportunities. For the other 80%, college is indeed a waste of time and money.

    /college prof

    Seth Largo (@SethLargo)

    January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

    • There are programs like that for high schoolers, some of them free. My 17 year old did an internship at a local hospital and the pathologist she met was so impressed with her he invited her to come in daily. So she ended up spending six weeks, five days a week, 9 hours a day in the pathology lab for what should have been a once a week program. The guy ended up writing her a recommendation that makes her sound like the second coming, too.

      Which brings me down to… I hate to say this but success in life really isn’t about pedigree but rather personality and the impression you make on people (and for certain fields innate intelligence). There are plenty of people who do well in life without a vaunted degree and there are countless people who had every advantage handed to them who end up face down in the mud.

      Lion grossly overstresses pedigree because he blames his perceived failures (let me emphasize the word perceived) on the fact that his parents couldn’t funnel him through elite social or educational channels.

      My kids’ pediatrician went to some nowhere college then medical school on one of those tropical island places. He’s now head of pediatrics at a top teaching hospital. I could go on and on with people I know or have encountered who are happy and successful in life despite having non ivy degrees. And I’ve known plenty with lofty degrees who are floundering or frustrated. There are no guarantees. I’m surprised lion keeps pushing this idea of top tier/ costly education- while acknowledging the usurious tuition- without pointing out cheaper ways to get a degree, or examining people who’ve done well in life by that route.

      I sometimes think there are two types of people in the world, information gatherers and non information gatherers. Information gatherers will always be learning something even in the worst of circumstances so in that respect college degrees are a moot point. The blank slatists think they can balance the non information gatherers by giving them the trappings of education but at least in this arena they’ll always be at a disadvantage. Like the studies that found children raised in homes with lots of books do better in school, so the answer is to dump piles of books in every disadvantaged home.

      toomanymice

      January 12, 2019 at EDT am

      • Right on! The fact is the Lion is a graduate of Stuyvesant and U.Penn, and that’s pretty damn elite. He got his law degree from the University of Arizona or some such place, but was homesick for New York and naively thought he could get hired by a law firm there. I’m sure there are lots and lots of Arizona law graduates in Phoenix or Scottsdale or Tucson or wherever who are doing very well indeed. I guess he couldn’t take the heat! In addition to being an academic snob of the first order, he is a geographical snob as well. I worked in NYC for seven years, but I had no regrets on leaving it.

        Crazy Jimmy

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Lion went to UPenn, so he has an elite pedigree

        Borat

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • If lion has stayed in Arizona he could have had a high 6 figure partner position by now and multiple blond gentile girlfriends/possibly a wife/kids that way. It’s probably not even too late for him to choose this road, but change is hard and leaving New York is even harder.

        Oh and he would be surrounded by political allies rather than leftist scum. Albeit the circles he would float in would be cuck traitor Mitt Romney types unless he represented big ranching interests.

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • @Crazy_Jimmy

        Most single people do not want to move to Arizona for the mere reason that there is nothing out there in terms of social life. The reason why college graduates move to NYC, Washington DC, etc. is that after college, the only type of people they can socialize with are in those areas. The only places in red state you can imagine yourself socializing as a college graduate would be in deep blue cities like Austin or other college towns.

        It’s only when said single people get married and have to worry about bills, taxes, etc. do they move to red states and usually they are special suburban conclaves built specially for them away from the Meriprolestans inhabiting the nether regions outside.

        Red pill aspie

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Actually, I thought the social life in Phoenix was pretty good.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

    • College is indeed a waste of time and money if your interest is Medieval Studies and you land a job with a non-profit organization (which 99% of the time, is unrelated to your studies).

      Non-Ivy colleges/universities in Meriprolestan are a value transference racket, which is just as bad as tax accountants/H&R Block who charge a few hundred dollars filing out IRS forms that a layman cannot understand.

      What justifies a student paying thousands of dollars to embark on a college major pertaining to the Middle Ages?

      Ok, what, who's this again?

      January 12, 2019 at EDT am

      • Your argument is moot because, as Lion noted elsewhere, the vast majority of college students today major in business related fields. You live in a fantasy world if you think kids throwing away thousands on “Medieval Studies” is a problem faced by the American economy circa 2019.

        But the point you’re trying to make about “Medieval Studies” is particularly retarded because, unbeknownst to you, a fool, you could make the same argument about physics, math, chemistry, geology, and nearly every other STEM field outside pre-med and select engineering majors.

        Unless they move on to a graduate program, the vast majority of STEM students end up in careers not at all or only tangentially related to their “major.” Even computer science majors end up doing basic code upkeep for Nameless Contracted Entity, work that certainly does not require a four year degree. An English major and a STEM major will be in similar boats after graduation as regards something as nebulous as “putting their degree to use.” I’ve been in academia for a decade. I’ve seen STEM majors and humanities majors variably flounder and succeed in equal measure after they graduate.

        Nevertheless, by the time they hit 35, most students recognize that, yes, their collegiate studies did indeed prepare them for their careers in ways they could not have understood beforehand, mostly related to general interpersonal and intellectual growth.

        Seth Largo (@SethLargo)

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • So what are these humanities degrees that you are alluding to..?

        The point I was trying to make is why spend thousands of dollars to acquire a degree in Medieval Studies where it gets you a job at a SJW.org in response to your point about humanities majors getting work at a non-profit.

        You just contradicted yourself by saying that the vast majority of college students are vocational majors (based on Lion’s observation) and by the time they hit middle age, they recognized that their collegiate studies gave them a intellectual bent, which of course, is totally untrue.

        Look at any industry, beside the cloistered Ivory Tower, and tell me how greed and not intellectualism has destroyed the sanctity of this country for good.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • > An English major and a STEM major will be in similar boats

        BS. Somebody with sufficient grounding in an engineering discipline and some business career exposure will be in a boat to write patents, write proposals, and meet with venture capitalists. A humanities major will either be in a sales related finance position or broke.

        Any 18 yo should pursue the most quantitatively demanding STEM path they can possibly succeed in. Life is a series of narrowing funnels. You have fewer and fewer choices as time goes on, and an important consideration is to keep options open. At 22 with a degree in pure math or chemistry you can do almost anything. You can waltz into law school or become a historian, or whatever. With just a degree in history you can do very few things. If you don’t have an in on some FIRE job, good luck.

        bobbybobbob

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Medieval Studies will teach you scholastic Aristotelianism and hence top-level argumentation, familiarity with the great religions and cultures, ins-and-outs of Byzantine politics and business, sustainable agriculture and small-group management, and because small (compared to today) very useful basic concepts of war/strategy in history, and how to do well-based presentations in several languages. Plus great love poetry ladies dig.

        Sounds pretty uplifting and useful to me.

        The Old Libertarian

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • “Life is a series of narrowing funnels. You have fewer and fewer choices as time goes on…”

        Good statement and very true. Every life decision precludes multiple future life decisions.

        Mike Street Station

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • @bobbybobobbob . . .

        A BS in a hard science may indeed put a student in a better position to do all those things. But the majority of hard science graduates are not doing those things, just as the majority of humanities graduates are not professors or professional authors.

        For every physics or math major working in a STEM career, there are ten doing whatever random job you imagine only philosophy majors do.

        Seth Largo (@SethLargo)

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Must of them wind up doing computer programming.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “For every physics or math major working in a STEM career, there are ten doing whatever random job you imagine only philosophy majors do”

        I’ve known lots of physics majors. The worst job any of them is doing right now is “electrical engineer”.

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

    • Looks like I’m the outlier, but now at the later years of my career I find I’m getting more use out of things learned in college than ever. Having been a philosophy student I learned forms of thinking and evidence evaluation as opposed to mere evidence collection. I’ve found over the years that even many well educated people fall into historicism traps.
      Reading Karl Popper helps me avoid such traps and has helped me articulate ‘feelings’ others have they but can’t find the vocabulary to discuss. I believe there is great merit in the ‘learn to think’ proposition.

      Curle

      January 12, 2019 at EDT am

      • There is much intellectual and interpersonal growth that occurs in a college environment, at least for that 20-30% of students for whom college is a worthwhile investment.

        Seth Largo (@SethLargo)

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • College gave me a reading list I’m still working on 30 years later. Luckily most of it’s free now too.

        Mrs Stitch

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Great comment and yes college/university/academia including the liberal arts are necessary and worthy endeavors.

        redarmyvodka

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

    • @ Seth

      It sounds like you are talking about humanities and social sciences students, mostly. I would have to agree that networking is the main benefit of university for those students.

      H/e for students in engineering and the hard sciences, the main benefit is literally what they say it is. You learn about subjects and pick up skills that you would certainly never have gotten if you hadn’t been in university. Yes, there are lectures on technical subjects online, but I can tell you with certainty that they are spotty at best, and having access to a professor who will answer your questions, is invaluable.

      Nobody learns how to be a quality engineer or scientist outside a university, because it’s impossible.

      Lowe

      January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Oh, I agree that STEM requires college education. My point was mainly that (excepting some engineering degrees), most STEM graduates are not in STEM-related jobs or are doing jobs that probably did not require a full STEM degree. If you want to be a chemist, a physicist, a biologist, a pure mathematician . . . . you have to go to graduate school and enter the academic/research world.

        People like “Ok, what?” above labor under the delusion that a bachelors degree in a hard science puts you in a better career position than a humanities degree. Which it doesn’t, by and large.

        Seth Largo (@SethLargo)

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

    • As a slight tangent, I’ve noticed that most whites (white being upper middle class) are much more into the networking as they see STEM as a way to become a manager. The vast majority of UMC whites who studied engineering went into management after doing a few years of grunt work. They truly see STEM as lucrative (if hard) way of getting a nice, easy management job.

      Meanwhile, the Indians and Chinese (and aspie/nerdish whites) who usually stay in research, science and engineering fields doing all the grunt work. It’s rare that they go into management and my guess is it’s probably against their will.

      This is why forcing more Americans to study STEM will be useless. Even if you convince them that it’s a safe job, they will only think of terms in getting a management job, not in contributing to the continuing scientific/technological development of the US.

      Red pill aspie

      January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • STEM management is so boring.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • You don’t even have to be a real manager to make good money. Lots of project managers at tech companies make 150k+ salaries. Yes it’s not hedge fund/ big finance salary but road to it is much much easier. Marry someone pulling similar salary and look and behold you got 300k+ household income. Not too shabby and not too competitive.

        mpt

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

  3. It’s true having wealthy parents is very beneficial. I’m doing a second bachelors in nursing and my parents are giving me the money for tuition. No student loans.

    Bryan Bell (@bjwbell)

    January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

    • Nursing is prole. And touching human flesh of strangers is unkosher.

      Ok, what, who's this again?

      January 12, 2019 at EDT am

      • Who dis?

        The Old Libertarian

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • It’s a borderline prole profession, which can be discerned based on whom they tend to date and marry – firefighters

        Borat

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • It’s not like you’re going to eat them.

        Crazy Jimmy

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

      • “It’s a borderline prole profession, which can be discerned based on whom they tend to date and marry – firefighters”

        Also interesting that of all the women on the planet, nurses are among the ones who are least attracted to doctors.

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

    • That’s great, Bryan. My parents also gave me a lot of money, to get through school. Nursing is a good career, which from what I have heard is in a lot of demand.

      Lowe

      January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

    • Had it to do over again, def nursing is what I’d do. Useful, portable and active unlike accounting or law.

      Bodies tend to wear out in your 50s tho. Keep that weight down .

      Mrs Stitch

      January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Being educated as a lawyer is probably one of the best investments you could make in life. Being able to think, write, speak, and argue effectively is extremely important. Even Lion who didn’t use his law degree created a great blog and has a sizable following. I’d say studying classics followed by law is the hallmark of a true elite.

        redarmyvodka

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • One law professor I had called law school graduate-level liberal arts.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • The Lion has a sizable following, compared to what? A small social club or church? Wow, law school sure paid dividends. =/

        Lowe

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Generating a following of any kind is pretty tough let alone one that reads/comments regularly. Lion has been blogging since the early 2000s and his legacy and that of many others will be the Trump revolution. For years people said our activities were in vain but that simply isn’t so. I can say myself that the content presented here and elsewhere has profoundly changed my worldview. Some of it is just common sense and other parts are deprogramming public school propaganda but that’s far more useful/powerful than some social club or church organization with its limited reach and echo chamber pitfalls.

        The telecom/technology sector including the internet and new media platforms associated with it have decentralized knowledge in way not seen since the printing press. It was highly educated men and ambitious laymen who capitalized on the opportunity to change history forever. Now the equivalent of the church is trying to suppress us to protect their privileges, positions, and power in society but it didn’t work then and it won’t work now. The power of truth, justice, history, and law is universal and not transient like the media propaganda you swallow wholesale.

        redarmyvodka

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

  4. I mean, it’s obviously a racket. The solution is just like the idiots say–allow bankruptcies for student loans. But the reason is that, once bankruptcies are allowed, the price of money will skyrocket and the price of college will collapse. Ideally, student loans simply won’t exist, and colleges will only be able to charge what a typical kid can make waiting tables or working construction three months a year…

    …just like in the past.

    onetwothree

    January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

    • Reminds me of the old saying, “If you owe the bank a dollar, the bank owns you. If you owe the bank a billion dollars, you own the bank.” Student loan debtors own the bank right now.

      Two in the Bush

      January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

  5. Hear hear.

    It’s a bear-trap for prole whites.

    jjbees

    January 11, 2019 at EDT pm

  6. Trump is a con-man and a huckster, he is not a friend of the white working class. He is not a patriot, and he is not even a conservative. That was obvious in the 1990s, obvious while he was on “The Apprentice”, and is still obvious today. Why are conservatives so amenable to fast-talking frauds? Evangelical preachers, multi-level marketing schemes, and those infomercial real estate systems always seem to target conservative types. So many “nationalist” politicians are people like Trump, Putin or Orban, who are obviously just seeking to enrich themselves and their cronies but use nationalist rhetoric as a way to engage peoples’ emotions, and stop them from looking behind the curtain.

    My sense is that conservatives tend to be more aware of relative social status than liberals (who are often clueless) and are thus more vulnerable to arguments that other people are an existential threat. Conservatives are more likely to follow someone who seems to possess high social status regardless of that leader’s morals or policy. Liberals are always convinced in their own minds that they are superior to the people around them, even when objectively they are not, but it does make them more open to voting for dorks who make intellectual arguments – Carter, Dukakis, Obama.

    Peter Akuleyev

    January 12, 2019 at EDT am

    • Trump is the only candidate who was anti-Immigration. And only Trump could have beaten Hillary, open-borders Jeb would have lost Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. I also love Trump for sticking it to the global warming idiots.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 12, 2019 at EDT am

      • We shall see on immigration. I was always concerned that Trump will do more long-term damage to the anti-immigration cause than a stupid liberal would have done. Trump is making “Open Borders” acceptable to large number of leftists and libertarians, when it wasn’t before. The wall is a silly pseudo-response to immigration that will never be as effective as E-verify, revoking birthright citizenship, and just sending out armed patrols, but of course the wall will never be built even if Trump gets his 5 billion. There is no real constituency on either side of the aisle to support a decade long wall-building project.

        A liberal President held in check by a conservative congress would probably have been less dangerous than a pseudo-conservative who makes nativists feel warm and fuzzy while allowing the GOP to focus on tax breaks.

        Come out to the Alps and look what is left of our glaciers, then talk to me about global warming.

        Peter Akuleyev

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Yes, in fact the only candidate who would even TALK about immigration.

        Mrs Stitch

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “Trump is making “Open Borders” acceptable to large number of leftists and libertarians, when it wasn’t before. ”

        Peter that’s just absurd. Libertarians have always been open borders and leftists have been since at least the 80’s. I remember reading a Nation article decades ago advocating for a “wet foot/dry foot” immigration policy. That’s basically, if you can get here, you can stay. And now, the Speaker of the House has declared physical border barriers immoral. That’s not some guy on twitter, that’s the Speaker.

        It’s over. If you think Trump pushed the left to open borders, than it’s already too late because that’s where they are right now.

        Mike Street Station

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

    • I love Trump most for his Trump University shenanigans. Whether the university students were liberals or conservatives, prole whites or swpls, it was awesome to see these idiots get fleeced!! 🙂 The more he cons the proles the more his market value rises for me.

      mpt

      January 12, 2019 at EDT am

      • What is it with all these people on here who have zero understanding of law? Lawsuits are a routine part of business but politically motivated lawsuits also exist such as the endless sexual harassment cases against Bill Clinton.

        Trump University was a real estate course created during an industry boom period. Nothing illegal occurred and the claims were settled out of court with no admission of wrongdoing. The timing of the lawsuits were also highly suspect and given legal standing by a Mexican judge but if someone couldn’t learn anything of value from a multi-billionaire and president of the United States well it’s their loss.

        You also sound like a cuck.

        redarmyvodka

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

    • Why do you think Trump, Putin, and Orban are not conservatives? They seem conservative to me.

      I think you are right that conservatives tend to be more aware of their true social status than liberals are, but I think the difference is not that large. Liberals demonstrate their social status awareness through their actions, more than their words.

      Lowe

      January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

    • Trump has achieved a lot both for America and his base. I’ll be happy to post a list of specific achievements if you’d like.

      Trump’s base was not just working/middle class people but also primarily younger people in their early to mid 30s and below. The flag waiving boomer cucks and bible thumpers you refer to were never the core of the Trump revolution. Some may have supported Trump but that was mostly because he was leader of the party and their support is expected.

      Like everyone says who else would have done a better job than Trump? The same can be said for Putin and Orban as well. Shades of Vladimir Lenin are present in all three men. Lenin was wealthy, highly educated, and even a noblemen but was still the greatest nationalist/populist of the 20th century.

      redarmyvodka

      January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • Lenin was an internationalist, who brought death and slavery to Russia. Putin is a thief and a criminal, who has robbed and impoverished the largest and the richest country on earth. Just like the last Tzar, Putin should be shot immidiately together with his whole family and his wealth confiscated for the benefit of the people.

        Yakov

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • The Russian Social Democratic Labor party and its Bolshevik faction which became known as the communist party was founded in 1900 by Vladimir Lenin. It was the influence/threat of Marxism that led the land based civilizations like Germany and later Russia to be the first to enact nationwide workplace safety inspections, sanitation laws, reduced working hours, and social insurance. They also enacted wage increases and partial land reform. A political/military union between central Europe and Russia would have conquered the world. However these ideas were a major threat to rightists, bosses, clergy, corporations, investors, industrial tycoons, mine operators, landholders, and foreign powers especially the sea based civilizations like England.

        Lenin’s internationalism was driven by the correct understanding that the international stage is the major league in politics not local, regional, or even national affairs. In other words Lenin was a cosmopolitan but not a rootless cosmopolitan much like Trump.

        The British are the number one enemy of Russia both past and present. Lenin refused to allow Russia to squander her political, economic, social, and military capital in fighting Great Britain’s wars as a member of the Allied powers during WW1 and rightly sought an alliance with the Central Powers instead. While some regard Lenin as a tyrant many regard him as a hero especially a hero to the poor, downtrodden, bullied, and abandoned. Despite his wealth, privilege, power, and prestige Lenin gave voice to real passions and suffering.

        redarmyvodka

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

      • This is a decent blog post that goes in depth on the topic.

        https://eradica.wordpress.com/2014/05/06/old-and-new-gods/

        redarmyvodka

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

      • Lenin was a paid German agent, who did exactly what the Germans paid him to do. He pulled Russia out of the war right when Russia was in a position to win, and handed over vast swathes of land to Germany. Then he killed the Tsar and his family and destroyed the Orthodox church. Lenin is one of the greatest traitors in Russian history. His reputation was saved first because the Germans weren’t smart enough to keep Wilson and the US out of the war, and thus ended up losing on the Western Front, second because Trotsky did a brilliant job reorganizing the Red Army and saved the Bolshevik’s bacon, and third because Stalin abandoned Lenin’s “Communist Internationalism” pipe dream and focused on “USSR First”.

        Peter Akuleyev

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

      • redarmyvodka

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

    • Because we’ve seen what is “behind the curtain” of Hillary Clinton, Creepy Joe Biden, Obama bin Laden, Billy Boy Clinton, Jeffery Epstein, John Pedosta, Mueller and Comey and a whole host of other Republican and Democrat degenerates.

      We’ve seen plenty of Democrats and GOPe types become millionaires on government salaries. How does that happen?

      Trump has proven to be more of a friend of the white working class than pretty every other politician. What exactly is the complaint.

      map

      January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • Trump’s record as a hero of the white working class seems a bit thin. Opioid deaths are still going up, there has been no investment in infrastructure, the tariffs are killing precisely the sorts of jobs white working class needs (agriculture, steel, automobile) and white men are now more disrespected than ever. I was stunned watching my first NFL game on US TV in 10 years the other day – all the ads are interracial couples, black families, hispanics, etc. If Trump is moving the Overton window at all, it seems to be in the wrong direction.

        Peter Akuleyev

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

      • The president has no control over what ads are shown on TV. Would those ads be any different had Hilary won the election? Not very likely.

        Trump’s role is that he has WOKEN UP the sleeping prole white masses.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

  7. I would tell proles that their kids would be better off taking AP/CLEP/DSST exams to quiz out of their first two years. Or going to community college while working. Or doing distance learning to get their bachelors. I know people who spread their college education over as many as ten years, and if anything it helped their careers. They were able to learn the corporate ropes while studying, and they didn’t get sucked into the college lifestyle, a lifestyle which ruins young people in appalling numbers.

    But nobody listens. I’m getting tired of being ignored. I’ve come to the conclusion that some people are determined to live their lives by social pressure, results be damned. “My life may be fucked up, but at least I got fucked-up people around me. And no one I know thinks they’re better than me.”

    njguy73

    January 12, 2019 at EDT am

    • “Or going to community college while working.”

      Where they interact with other proles and pick up bad ways of thinking from them.

      “Or doing distance learning to get their bachelors. ”

      Most people lack the self-motivation to do that. Even I needed to take BAR-BRI in order to get motivated to study for the bar exam.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 12, 2019 at EDT am

      • I recently cut off an acquaintance who wanted to travel with me and by listening to your advice that credentials from low tier schools does indeed reflect the prolish attitude of their graduates, I made a very sound move.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Maybe you should ask your boy Trump, instead of building a wall between Texas and Mexico, build a bunch of small walls. Within this country. Between prole areas and SWPL areas.

        njguy73

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “Maybe you should ask your boy Trump, instead of building a wall between Texas and Mexico, build a bunch of small walls. Within this country. Between prole areas and SWPL areas”

        The real elephunt in the room of divide, is something like this, which is depicted in a mother of all jones article about the current gov’t shutdown:

        This eyesore of an ugly, num-infested, public housing project, which is situated in Lincoln Center, a wealthy Manhattan neighborhood, is the gist of America’s divide problem. Proles are a problem, but disenfranchised nums are the problem, that creates problems for everyone else.

        https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/01/the-shutdown-could-take-its-biggest-toll-on-the-most-vulnerable-americans/

        NUM is my term for NAM.

        NUM = Nascent-Undeserving-Minority

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • [Or going to community college while working.]

        “Where they interact with other proles and pick up bad ways of thinking from them.”

        My second job at the Major Home Improvement Retailer may be pretty crappy but I work or have worked with quite a few young people who’ve done just that. If they have “bad ways of thinking” I certainly haven’t noticed any such thing. Most of the young women are sweethearts and the young men are decent sorts.

        Peter

        ironrailsironweights

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “My second job at the Major Home Improvement Retailer may be pretty crappy but I work or have worked with quite a few young people who’ve done just that. If they have “bad ways of thinking” I certainly haven’t noticed any such thing. Most of the young women are sweethearts and the young men are decent sorts.”

        Yeah, I’ve found that.

        Lion is full of shit. He’s simply externalizing self-hatred.

        Proles are to him as women and Jews are to Andrew Anglin.

        gothamette

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “Most of the young women are sweethearts”

        You are absolutely correct about that. We hired a very prole and very sweet blonde early 20s girl a few months ago. Since discovering her the local beat patrol officers have been dropping by with greater frequency checking in on their new friend.

        Curle

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

    • I’m listening to you but I agree with you about being tired of not being listened to, including here.

      But yeah, you’re right. Of course your right. Lion sees things in a very sad, blinkered way. He’s on his knees in front of the ivies, because he wasted money on a useless law degree, and instead of doing something with his life, he kvetches endlessly and writes junk for tweens.

      Over and over again I have said that the vast majority of corporate CEOs do not have Ivy BAs, they have engineering degrees from states, and Lion’s response has been, “Being a CEO is prole.”

      Fuck you, Lion.

      gothamette

      January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • I thought he was a computer programmer.

        njguy73

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • There are about 4000 universities in the US. The Ivy League produces 9.2% of F500 CEOs. 17 universities account for a fifth. These schools are a mixture of the usual suspects and intermediate prestige state flagships, except for one intermediate prestige liberal arts college. I would guess that an overwhelmingly majority of CEOs came from at least intermediate prestige schools, and that Directional States are almost nonexistent. Considering Directional States are like 70-80% of schools, this is damned significant.

        Sure, Lion should count his blessings. But it’s hard to say he’s wrong about credentials.

        Monsieur le Baron

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • 9.2% of the F500 CEO’s undergrad degrees?

        Look, I call bullshit, or I challenge you to prove it.

        I’ve never denied the importance of an Ivy degree. It’s like having a title. But having an Ivy UNDERGRAD degree doesn’t factor at all in becoming a CEO.

        I think that 9.2% includes grad degrees, especially elite B-school degrees. I’ve said this here (and elsewhere several times), the way to a CEO job is to get an engineering degree anywhere, and then an elite B-school degree.

        That said Jack Welch wasn’t hurt by having three degrees from UMass.

        I wasted 5 minutes and discovered that the top 3 companies in the US are Walmart, Exxon Mobile, and Berkshire Hathaway. Their CEOs graduated from University of Arkansas, Texas A&M, and U Nebraska.

        It’s pretty pathetic for someone who never actualized his potential to curl his lip with fine contempt at these guys.

        gothamette

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “That said Jack Welch wasn’t hurt by having three degrees from UMass.”

        Jack Welch is 83 years old. College age men today will encounter a very different world than Jack Welch did 60 to 65 years ago.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Kittleman Research counted the undergrad degrees of the Fortune 500. UMass actually does reasonably well. UMass Amherst is #70 on USNews. In fact, most state flagships do reasonably well. Because there are tons of state flagships and few Ivies, of course lots of CEOs have state flagship degrees. But as I said before, there are 4000 universities in the US. Defending the honor of UMass as downtrodden is like lion complaining about his top 5% income. UMass may not be the best, but everyone agrees it is pretty good.

        Isn’t it common sense that an Ivy League degree is a good thing to have? Isn’t this borne out by overrepresentation in all these various metrics, none of which I proposed? Is it the end-all-be-all in UMC professional life or in rising to the UC? No, of course not. But it helps. It matters.

        And are you saying I never actualized my potential or that lion didn’t? If me… you don’t know me. And if lion, he rose from proledom to the top few percentiles and gained a reasonably prestigious job. He lived the American Dream. He’s just a sad sack about it.

        Monsieur le Baron

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

      • I never actualized my potential.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

      • > The Ivy League produces 9.2% of F500 CEOs

        The average Ivy League grad is not impressive. Brush up on your Bayes, bro. If you can get in on a good deal, definitely go Ivy. It’s really not worth obsessing about. It’s not the school brand that does it.

        I’m pretty sure the impending legal changes and 80% Asian student body will severely impair the brand soon anyway. So it won’t even mean what it did 40 years ago, if that’s not already the case.

        This CEO title metric is a goofy starting point in any case. Wealth is what people are interested in, not jobs.

        bobbybobbob

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • The CEO metric isn’t mine. So far, it looks like Ivy League grads generally have significantly higher income and form a disproportionately large amount of CEOs. I’m going to take a guess and say they tend to turn out pretty wealthy too. The average Ivy League grad doesn’t have to be super amazing for them to have better outcomes. Are you seriously going to deny they have better outcomes? And if they do, how much comes from hard to test competence as opposed to people seeing the brand as a mark of quality?

        Monsieur le Baron

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Being a CEO is prole? So Lion’s thinking is more in line with JS/”Ok, what, who’s this again?” than I thought.

        Has Lion ever explained why he didn’t use his law degree?

        Hermes

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • The trend is more important. What % of CEO’s come from pedigrees in the last 10 vs 20 vs 30 years. The world has changed. The globalists have all but eliminated the concept of working your way up from the mailroom.

        Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

        January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “Has Lion ever explained why he didn’t use his law degree?”

        Indirectly, I think.

        The practice of law requires some minimal degree of extroversion outside of some limited practice areas such as writing appellate briefs on spec. A lot of the work involves interaction with undesirables or unpleasant people. Make of that what you will.

        Curle

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Eh, there’s lot of lawyers with no people skills.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “there’s lot of lawyers with no people skills.”

        A few doing mainly transactional work or support for other lawyers. The bulk of lawyers need to interact with people regarding sensitive subjects and have people skills sufficient to deal with their foibles. It isn’t realtor level people skills but also can’t be shut in. Plus, you need to be able to negotiate with other lawyers

        Curle

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

      • Lawyers tend to interact with other lawyers who also don’t have people skills. Very few lawyers actually do jury trials, and some of those lawyers don’t have great people skills either.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

  8. Waaaay OT:
    For the first time ever, there are three likely 2020 presidential candidates whom you’d want to bone – Tulsi Gabbard, Kirsten Gillibrand and Kamala Harris. Or even four, Elizabeth Warren is quite old but still might be decent to nail.

    Peter

    ironrailsironweights

    January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

    • Tulsi is way more boneable than the others, with Kirsten a distant second.

      Lowe

      January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Agreed.

        This topic is worth it’s own thread.

        Mike Street Station

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • Not a pres candidate, but I’d add Homeland Security Sec. Kristjen Nielsen to the list.

        emanations & penumbras

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • “Not a pres candidate, but I’d add Homeland Security Sec. Kristjen Nielsen to the list [of bone-worthy women].”

        She isn’t bad, but there’s something sort of weird about a highly desirable woman who has reached age 46 without marrying or having children. As far as I know she’s not of the Sapphic persuasion. She’s certainly had quality Alpha males pursuing her for 30 years.

        Peter

        ironrailsironweights

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

    • Dude you need to look at some non-staged, non-photoshopped pictures of Kirsten and Kamala. They are saggy and wrinkly, as you would expect from women in their 50s. Hard pass.

      Tarl

      January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

  9. Having rich parents who will set aside a slush fund for you in every facet of life is of course a moot discussion for those who are have nots.

    Ok, what, who's this again?

    January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

    • Do you know how to make a point?

      Lowe

      January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

  10. “(It’s unfortunate that the author had to take a stab at Trump, but maybe that was necessary in order to make the article more palatable for the Trump-hating but college-loving Atlantic. ”

    The article was published in Rolling Stone. What does The Atlantic have to do with this?

    gothamette

    January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

  11. James Watson geneticist stripped of Nobel prize because he believes hbd.

    Armando

    January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

    • It doesn’t say he was stripped of his Nobel. After being blacklisted because of his 2007 remarks, he sold his Nobel medal, but the person who bought it, an Uzbek (and thus not susceptible to Western liberal groupthink) returned it to him, saying he deserved it.

      Hermes

      January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

      • That was an uncle of the Uzbek that used to work for Yakov.

        My 2¢

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • Interesting. Any clue who this Uzbek really is? Sounds like a fake identity for the powers that be in America. The USA is where the eugenics movement began and was heavily associated with Yale. The media is not really a strong barometer of what elite opinion actually is because media and especially GOP media has been race baiting for decades.

        redarmyvodka

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • I had a Tajik, not an Uzbek. The Uzbeck in question is a bona fide oligarch worth15 billion $$ and is to be one of the first to be shot in the next popular revolution.

        Yakov

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • “media and especially GOP media has been race baiting for decades.”

        You are part right and part wrong. The media generally has been race-baiting whites for decades promoting the idea that performance, income or crime gaps by minorities are caused by current or historic white behavior. A specious claim. The more Left-wing the media the more this claim is amplified.

        Curle

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

  12. dried peanuts

    January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

  13. There are many European countries where higher education is free. Nobody needs to go into student debt. I would rather study in Rome or Lisbon then in NYC or LA. There is everything right with studying Humanities for knowledge sake without a practical end in mind. If you can’t make a living as a linguist or an art critic, you’ll figure something practical to do when the reality bites, but the knowledge, that is important to you, is priceless. The US educational racket is for really dumb people. If you are too stupid to go to a European country, learn its language and get a fine free education, you are just too stupid and I’m not gonna waste my time on worrying about you, but the government should shut down this criminal racket, but only a fasisct dictatorship can do it. The present government has no legitimacy because everything it does is against the interests of the American people
    It does everything to enslave and impoverished the population and the student loans to finance worthless ‘education’ is part of that. This is very simple.

    Yakov

    January 12, 2019 at EDT pm

    • There are many European countries where higher education is free

      Who funds this free education?

      enwurd

      January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • Those who can afford it.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • You would be surprised how cheap education can be when the universities don’t fund sports teams, don’t build stadiums and gyms, don’t fund giant bureaucracies making sure LGBTQ students have safe spaces, don’t provide luxury student housing and fancy cafeterias, don’t have to process thousands of admissions essays and worry about the “right balance” of admissions, and don’t even have to have a financial aid office.

        Peter Akuleyev

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

    • The US used to squeeze rent from other countries. Now it cannot do it at the same scale anymore, so it had to start squeezing its own people.

      My 2¢

      January 13, 2019 at EDT am

    • Nah. The free Euro education is generally pretty lame. It’s ‘free’ for certain students, is paid by ill-managed taxation, and what is taught interlaced with propaganda that makes US SJW professordom look like Ayn Rand Objectivism. While I love Europe, Euros are not as educated or sophisticated as they think about the US or even their own countries, and as Jefferson observed still behind the US by several centuries in philosophical development, personal/team self-organization, and multi-cultural sophistication. I will say some of the eastern Europe colleges are trying hard and despise the far-left so are better, at least where I’ve audited courses. But that may be me. I’m a rich and well-connected old man with personal charm. Still, the stupidest and ridiculously provincial professors I ever met were in Cambridge and Oxford.

      In the US endowed colleges are generally free or low-cost (and without taxpayer involvement) to their IQ class. It is trying to go to a better college than you merit that gets you in financial trouble as they’re in no rush to subsidize you from their endowments, but unlike Europe won’t prevent you from getting in. Your funeral, as we say in US, and just enough late bloomers who then get a full ride once they’ve proven themselves.

      As for networking unless you’re a prodigy it’s a multi-generation project. It makes better sense to build a business and get some land the 1st generation, send the kids to college to network locally the second, the next generation statewide and maybe make a splash especially if your ethnic group is relatively new or having a new cycle or if able (or maybe the next ) a federal level place like Harvard or the top LACs. After then maybe certain specialty or e-colleges the grandsons of the ‘elite’ use. The maybe you understand how the US works and your family has earned a place to have some influence because they don’t sound like idiots when they open their mouths. It takes 5 generations to become leaderly American, as the saying goes. Most of the US is just 2nd generation still. And a lot of folks are fine where they are, like Hutterites and such.

      If you’re 1st generation college in your family, my advice is learn a trade, privately read the Great Books and all the history and law you can, then in a local college take several majors including a job-ready profession and get great grades and read well beyond the assigned reading, go cheap but intern and network and learn from extracurriculars like crazy, take a year off to backpack in foreign countries, save like mad and expand your family property, test out a bunch of courses for breadth as you finish your BA (it is better for financial aid reasons, ask around), and join up with the Libertarians and their manifold affinity groups do their LIO neighborhood leader program. Once you’re on their radar as a good egg they’ll open doors unasked, and you’ll network with libertarians in every country. Take a few courses at Harvard Extension to meet people and see what that’s about, if you’re doing well in the PTK honor society it’s free for the basic three courses.

      The Old Libertarian

      January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • @Old lib

        A bachelor’s at Lisbon University is 1,000 euro a year in tuition and you can rent a small place for $300. I can’t imagine it being lower level then any of the NYC colleges just based on the demographics alone. But the truth is I don’t know for sure because it’s been a long time since I’ve been to Europe. Just as an example, you get a double major in philosophy and history for 2,000 euro, develop native fluency in Portuguese and Spanish, enjoy live Fado any time you feel like and get to see the rest of Europe in the summers. What can be wrong with this picture?

        Yakov

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • Nah. Europeans, continental ones at least, are approximately as sophisticated as they think they are. Restrict your claim to Anglo-Europeans and you may be correct.

        Unlike Americans, Europeans don’t look lost when–in conversation–historical, literary, or geographical references are made. In America what passes for culture consists of little else than the overweight watching the semi-literate play with a ball (as an aside, it’s astounding how many men of middle age are emotionally affected by “their” team losing). Her intellectual life consists of conversing about the same.

        You are absolutely right about reading great books. But I must say I laughed out loud at your claim that Jefferson believed the US to be philosophically ahead of Europe. What philosophy is there in America? Muh small government? Wonder what Iraqis and Libyans would say?

        Mj

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • “Europeans, continental ones at least, are approximately as sophisticated as they think they are. Restrict your claim to Anglo-Europeans and you may be correct”

        The greater term is Anglo Prole which is designated for those who live in the British Isles, North America (with the exception of Québec and its Francophones), Australia and New Zealand.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “Jefferson believed the US to be philosophically ahead of Europe.“

        I presumed he meant America of Jefferson’s time operationalized Hume and Locke before Europe.

        Curle

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

    • “If you are too stupid to go to a European country, learn its language and get a fine free education,”

      If you are smart enough to do those things, you are probably smart enough to get a free-ride at a second tier private US college like Macalaster or at most decent state schools, like U Mass or UNH. And if you want to work in the US that makes more sense.

      The best European degrees are equivalent to a top State University degree in the US. You won’t get the networking benefits you get from a top-tier school in the US, and you better be damn sure you know what you want to study going in, because you will only study one topic. You also won’t have access to the resources that a top US university has. That said, close to free is a pretty good deal. Any sort of STEM degree in the Netherlands, Denmark or Germany (often offered in English) might be a smart move if you can’t get a free ride in the US to a Carnegie-Mellon or U of Michigan.

      Going to university in Portugal or Italy is stupid if you ever want to work in the US, and Italian universities are getting worse by the year.

      UK universities aren’t that cheap if you are an American citizen, are underfunded, and probably aren’t worth the money for the most part. Maybe if you can swing Oxford, Cambridge or St. Andrews it might be worth going.

      Peter Akuleyev

      January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • ‘Going to university in Portugal or Italy is stupid if you ever want to work in the US, and Italian universities are getting worse by the year.’

        Not if you love Europe and it’s civilization and feel that you have an Iberian-Latin soul.

        ‘And if you want to work in the US that makes more sense.’

        Yes, if you an insecure utilitarian.

        ‘You won’t get the networking benefits you get from a top-tier school in the US’.

        True, again if you are an insecure type, who starts his life ready to genuflect and kiss up. We arrived here in 1975. My dad, answered an ad for an engineering job in the NYT and had a job one week after our arrival. He was offered $20,000 and doubled and tripled his salary in no time. This type of education is what my Wing Chun sifu meant when he kept repeating to us: ‘Education is power! ‘.

        Yakov

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

    • Just as we’ve seen the rise of “medical tourism”, I predict that we will see the development of “educational tourism” as non-western countries enhance the value of their educational institutions and provide a better value for a much lower cost. Only very big problem is providing better physical security for the students.

      emanations & penumbras

      January 13, 2019 at EDT am

    • There are two types of “free” European education.

      1. The Nordic model, which means “free college” for a select number of students who have tested well enough to be allowed a spot at a university instead of a trade school. Imagine needing to earn a 4 or 5 on an AP test in order to get free tuition anywhere you want . . . that’s the Nordic (and Germanic) model.

      2. The French model, which offers free admission to giant lecture halls for two or three years to whoever wants to show up. Or not. Doesn’t matter. Either way, you get a nice certificate at the end. I don’t believe STEM programs are on the menu under this model.

      Seth Largo (@SethLargo)

      January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • I don’t know so much about it. I and my kids went to school in Israel for free. Why wouldn’t a Jew get a free (to a new Immigrant) education, including the dorms, in Israel? My daughter has 4 BAs (English, Jewish studies, Math, Education) all for free and that, and being very smart, gave her an excellent salary and carrier teaching in the elite Jewish private schools in the USA. She quit her job and is trying going into business now, so go figure, but to me acquiring native fluency in Hebrew was the major benefit of that education.

        Yakov

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

    • “The US educational racket is for really dumb people. If you are too stupid to go to a European country, learn its language and get a fine free education, you are just too stupid“

      Odd thing is that 40 years ago higher education in this country was effectively free. Another thing that’s been memory-holed as we focus on empowering racial spoils.

      Curle

      January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • In New York City, tuition was 100% free at City College which was one of the nation’s top universities. And then they went open admissions.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Slightly old article here — City College is expensive, because of value transference. Who will pay the top executives of the school for much ado about nuthin where they earn more than quarter of a million?

        https://nypost.com/2017/06/26/top-cuny-administrators-are-about-to-get-fatter-paychecks/

        Imagine private schools where they get paid more, hence a higher tuition billed to the students.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

  14. There is a book about it!

    The case against Education.

    Yoav

    January 13, 2019 at EDT am

    • “Bryan Caplan argues that the primary function of education is not to enhance students’ skill but to certify their intelligence, work ethic, and conformity”

      He’s wrong again! The primary purpose of education is to provide jobs for people like Bryan Caplan. Talk about biting the hand that feeds him.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • Don’t make me laugh now, mate! The purpose of education is the pursuit of knowledge, wisdom and perfection. This is what the Greek philosophers (the lovers of wisdom) and the Talmud sages thought. You still don’t get it. Just amazing.

        Yakov

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • Lol…VT parasites who do not understand their parasitism!

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • The practical aspects are the outcome of that pursuit and are obviously necessary, but aren’t what education is about, ok?

        Yakov

        January 13, 2019 at EDT am

      • Well we do need some way to fund academic research so we can either put the burden all on tax payers, or we can force kids to go to college which has the added bonus of teaching them stuff & helping employers screen people (though it also has a lot of opportunity costs for kids)

        pumpkinperson

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

  15. If it weren’t for being enrolled in college, I’m not sure my adult son would ever leave his room. So there’s that.

    toomanymice

    January 13, 2019 at EDT am

    • The country needs a draft and laws against parasitism.

      Yakov

      January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Draft has been proven to be a terrible idea.

        mpt

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

      • Are you suggesting Vietnam proved that the draft was a terrible idea?

        Lowe

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

      • “Draft has been proven to be a terrible idea.”

        Proven how? Under the old system it provided the one, albeit slim, hedge on predatory war profiteer plutocrats, politicians and journalists who might fear losing a child by pushing endless wars. It created a legit distinction between males and females that moderated feminist moral claims. It gave aliens of child rearing age a reason to stay on their side of the border. By giving engineers a pass and other social assets safe assignments it ensured that some % of the losses would be absorbed by the the parasitic underclass thus having a small eugenic effect. It helped moderate excess concentration of overly hung-ho BD types (Doonsbury) from distorting the institution. And, it kept us from needing to recruit Dominicans and Jamaicans.

        Curle

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

  16. A couple of comments above repeated the false idea that going to college teaches you to think. It just isn’t so.

    And if Lion thinks CEOs are prole, what isn’t prole? How do you have to act to not be prole?

    CamelCaseRob

    January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

    • I didn’t say that CEOs are prole. But here are some old-time CEOs who are sort of middle classish. But I think the newer CEOs will more and more come from elite colleges, because that’ the way the world is heading.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • Newer CEOs will still parrot (and worse, implement) progressive ideas regardless of what college they attend, because they do not want to be the target of a media hate campaign or a shakedown attempt by some Lefty advocacy group. (“Why doesn’t your corporation care about diversity / LGBT issues / the environment / climate change / whatever?”)

        Tarl

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

      • CEO’s tend to be psychopathic, but the HR people they hire have totally drunk the Kool-Ade.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

    • It depends on what you mean by “college”. Throughout most of history real education was always private. The nearest to public schools were church schools and they were okay far better than the crap that passes for public education now.

      Public schools were great in the 20th century and specifically in the American 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s. Public school in communist/ex-communist countries remains strong as well as in places like Japan. In the American context they began to go downhill massively in the late 1990s and that trend has accelerated. Public school isn’t bad because it’s public but because they push weird agendas that have nothing to do with reality and have open enrollments which invite lots of undesirables.

      Private school was always great however.

      redarmyvodka

      January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

  17. I went to a prestigious STEM school for both my bachelors and masters in computer engineering. It is true that even STEM people are usually doing careers unrelated to their field at times. On the other hand, studying hard sciences give you valuable preparation and intellectual development that will allow you to change careers easily when the occasion is needed.

    As an example, I originally studied computer engineering to do image processing. It became hard later on to find such a position in New Jersey as all engineering companies have fled to low tax states like Ohio and North Carolina. I later transitioned to artificial intelligence and data science as that industry is booming in NYC. Luckily, all the math/science classes I took allowed me to make that transition much more easily (along with having credentials) than someone with a mere humanities degree could ever have.

    Red pill aspie

    January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

    • Yes, this is the point I was trying to make upthread. Few students end up doing exactly what their degrees theoretically prepared them for, but most degrees will prepare you to transition to adjacent (and sometimes not so adjacent) job fields. Obviously you could transition to data science more easily than a humanities student, but most of my humanities students could transition more easily into an advertising, publishing, or HR job than my STEM students.

      Seth Largo (@SethLargo)

      January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

  18. You know, I find it amazing that anyone still disputes the point about credentialism that Lion keeps making and on which he is completely correct. Keep in mind that his hypothetical example is about giving advice to a very bright kid with ample opportunities about what course of action to take when navigating his future. It is not a polemic on how awful community college or Directional U or going into trades may be. I am sure these are perfectly fine decisions for entire subsets of the population.

    But none of these are Lion’s point.

    The point is that if you get into an Ivy or a near-Ivy school, or a school with impeccable credentials, like a top 14 undergrad or professional school, then you go…full stop. You go even if you have to go deep into debt to attend. It is simply the best overall decision for all the reasons that Lion gives.

    Yes, you can graduate from Harvard and become a total failure. Yes, you can graduate from a community college and end up a millionaire. This happens…but it is not the way to bet. In terms of probabilities, becoming successful is far more likely graduating from Harvard than graduating from a community college. This is just a bare empirical fact that no one should dispute.

    The point is that there is no mix-and-matching an alternative set of educational matrices that will somehow equalize the probabilities against a proper and highly-valued set of educational credentials. Not even in the sciences. A person who structures their education around community college/Directional U to save money on tuition is not going to equalize his chances against a Harvard grad. It simply won’t happen. He will not even get a chance to test himself against the Harvard grad because the institution will screen out his application before it even gets into the hands of a decision-maker.

    Why? Because the CEO’s that went to the Directional U at undergrad want to higher the better-credentialed workers for their companies. They will hire based on credenialism even if the credentials are better than their own degree. They are that mercenary.

    In the end, this is all about market-signaling. There is only 24 hours in a day and 7 billion people. What shortcuts are you providing to decision-makers to make it easy for them to select you above dozens of other people who may want the same position? You think someone is going to take the time to listen how you got into Harvard but turned it down to go to a state school that offered a full scholarship? No one has time for that.

    map

    January 13, 2019 at EDT pm

    • If you have to compare a community college to Harvard to make your point, you have a pretty weak case. From my own experience (and experience of my friends), I know that the prestige of high school and/or university does not make a difference 10 years post university graduation as long as people start with similar level of intelligence and assuming they graduate from college with a bachelor’s degree.

      My 2¢

      January 14, 2019 at EDT am

      • The prestige may get the graduate into a career track they otherwise wouldn’t have gotten into, and that makes a HUGE HUGE difference.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 14, 2019 at EDT am

      • I do not think it makes any difference. No evidence of upward mobility for any schools. The University of Minnesota: parent’s income at 70th percentile results in student’s income at 70th percentile. Harvard: parent’s income at 78th percentile results in student’s income at 78th percentile. There is no advantage in going to Harvard vs. the University of Minnesota for the same student.

        My 2¢

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “There is no advantage in going to Harvard vs. the University of Minnesota for the same student.”

        Are you sure the same student wouldn’t fall from 78% to 70%?

        Curle

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm

      • “I know that the prestige of high school and/or university does not make a difference 10 years post university graduation as long as people start with similar level of intelligence and assuming they graduate from college with a bachelor’s degree.”

        I can point to numerous examples from real life where students with same BA and same graduate degree but different prestige levels for graduate school ended up with highly differentiated yearly earnings.

        Curle

        January 14, 2019 at EDT pm


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