Lion of the Blogosphere

Computer science an increasingly popular major

with 133 comments

The New York Times reports that the number of computer science majors more than doubled between 2013 and 2017.

1. This invalidates the theory of certain blog commenters that everyone goes to college to major in bogus majors like women’s studies (which in reality is an extremely rare major). There is actually widespread, if not universal, acknowledgement by college students that they should be concerned with the marketability of their degree.

2. Perhaps the reason for this sudden increase (which I actually was surprised to learn about) is that the problem of young people getting saddled with student debt but with no corresponding high-paying job is becoming more widely known, and there’s a new rush to major in something practical.

3. The fact that people are going to college for vocational reasons goes completely against the liberal ideal of college as a humanist place where minds are expanded, and you can self-actualize by studying the world’s greatest works of literature, philosophy, etc. What college students really want is to major in something like plumbing or HVAC, but less blue-collar.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

January 24, 2019 at EST am

133 Responses

Subscribe to comments with RSS.

  1. Increase in white young people or just Indians?

    Jokah Macpherson

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  2. The Seattle Times had an article the other day about how STEM majors have massively replaced humanities majors at the University of Washington. I attribute this to the large proportion of Asian students at UW, and the emphasis on STEM around here. At the private universities (such as Seattle U), minorities were stil bitching about “old white men” dominating classics education.

    Joe

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • U Wash is trying to break into the top five in CS. Microsoft money was trying to push them into it as well.

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  3. Comp Sci remains popular because the immigration flood gates are still wide open and student visas flying off the shelves. What percentage of those students are Chinese and Indian? 80%? Then there’s a layer of the smarter Arabs in there, and Eastern European and Russian immigrants.

    How many comp sci majors are actual Americans? 10% at best?

    Trump should cancel all student visas from China and India.

    peterike

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • Hipsters would rather find a way to live on Easy St. for a discount.

      White kids want to be cool with craft breweries and design work, not hardcore techie work.

      Ok, what, who's this again?

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • Good point. UIUC has a top 5 CS Grad program. I took some Grad level CS classes there a while ago. Recently I heard they were the #1 school for Chinese international students.

      If you walk around campus town and see a big group of all white young Midwesterners, they’re undergrads. Some (but not necessarily all) of them are majoring in useless majors. The more international a group of people are, the more likely they are to be grad students. The more Indians and Chinese, the more likely they are to be CS or engineering majors.

      Another thing people don’t realize is that these international students are paying cash. If you’re from Delhi India not Delhi NY, there’s no financial aid, federal, state, or otherwise. When someone (usually dad) has to pay cash for that tuition money, what classes get taken with that money starts to matter a lot more. Making the most of that opportunity becomes more meaningful.

      Once people, Americans or international, get that student ID, they have the exact same equality of opportunity with regard to what classes they take. The American students are going to “follow their dreams” by taking classes that aren’t very interesting or useful, but that are easy. This strategy frees them up to enjoy the “college experience” of getting blackout drunk on the weekend. International students think that they will have to recoup the investment of a college degree, or at least not bring disgrace on their family. It’s a different mindset.

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • You mean the Indian government pays for these kids to get computer science degrees so they can become spies in American companies on behalf of the Indian government?

        map

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • The Indian government doesn’t pay any of the Indian CS grad students. Typically either the family has money or the parents take out loans in India.

        Bryan Bell (@bjwbell)

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • Really?

        They have the money to do that?

        map

        January 25, 2019 at EST am

      • “Really?

        They have the money to do that?”

        Yeah right. Haven’t you heard? India, superpower by 2020.

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 27, 2019 at EST pm

    • Well H1b followed by Green Card followed by citizenship would turn them American soon enough. Green card wait for Indians is about 12 years now, I was lucky to go the marriage route though. Took me 1.5 years.

      mpt

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • “How many comp sci majors are actual Americans? 10% at best?”

      More like 90%.

      Tanturn

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • Back in the late ’90s, I had to take six graduate-level computer science courses as part of my MBA to earn a spcialized concentration in MIS. I was the only American-born student in each of those large classes. Nearly all Chinese (that couldn’t speak English) and southeast Asian.

      E. Rekshun

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • I bet most of the other students are Americans now too. In the end, it did not matter.

        mpt

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • The universities are addicted to the high fees foreigners are charged.

      I mean, someone has to pay for all those useless grievance studies departments. Even if they’re not large, they still require some funding.

      And then there’s all the people supporting “diversity.” They make good money.

      Frau Katze

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  4. In a post scarcity world of tangibles, an intangible, information economy is what drives students to major in tech.

    What a travesty!

    Ok, what, who's this again?

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  5. Fundamental question arises here.
    What is the quality of graduating students? Does the term “computer science” lump together science, engineering to some basic programming courses?
    I cannot talk about situation in the US but having a loosely related major, masters in computer science and engineering is really heavy on math and actually also physics (especially electro-magnetic field and forces, plus physical principles of operations). Then comes logical thinking and abstraction in a way to architect and design SW and design or understanding of HW.
    No matter how hard you try, there is only a limited number of people in population who can make it.

    So, now comes the other question. Where the new people do come from?
    If we assume there is no dumbing down of the major, the only options are either to siphon them from other fields or foreigners. But there are not many places to siphon from.
    My experience with (my) high school sample is that most people who have the means to go there really go there – computers or electrical engineering/electronics. There were few who chose mechanical engineering, physics or (applied) math and few doctors. But no-one else. At least at the level needed.

    krakonos

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • “Does the term “computer science” lump together science, engineering to some basic programming courses?”

      Yes, and advanced math.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • I don’t think the mob-think hipster and yuppy sheeps could hack it in CS. Not even close.

        CS is not a popular major for the natives.

        For the lesser creatives, there’s finance, law, sales, and marketing.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • And this is the person profiled in the NYT article.

        A far cry from reality!

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • There is no money in computer science. The flood of third-worlders has destroyed the field.

        The salaries that you see from computer science people are due mainly to an apex fallacy…a sample of the very highest people in the industry, usually self-reported, because they like bragging in university surveys.

        Consider what computer science is…a fundamental understanding of software and operating system design, the basis of pretty much the entire computer industry.

        The trouble is, the computer industry depends on compatibility and re-licensing for its profits…not on innovation. The primary concern of Microsoft is making sure Windows and Office is backward-compatible with everything that people use. They are not going to hire people to radically redesign either of these software packages or operating systems for fear of breaking something and leading to a massive run on their call centers.

        The network effect in computer science and computer engineering guarantees that most computer scientists will be severely underutilized, forever competing against ordinary programmers in maintaining applications. The field is largely a dead end.

        map

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • map comment reminds me of the famous “Why a career in computer programming sucks”, from Lion’s other persona. Man, that was a life changer for me. After that (and some more extensive research, like article “Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s all about age”) I quit, got into law and I’m happier than ever. My old buddies are essentially stagnant or even unemployed
        thanks lion

        Lucas

        January 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • If you have access to another career, stay away from IT.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 26, 2019 at EST pm

    • “Does the term “computer science” lump together science, engineering to some basic programming courses?”

      Not really. First off, it’s a lot more than just “basic programming courses”. It’s a lot of programming, with an emphasis on learning lots of ways to do that programming, which aren’t necessarily straight forward: lambda functions, recursive functions, currying, linked lists vs arrays, inheritance, metaclasses, etc. There are required math classes, but not really required science or traditional engineering classes. A computer science degree teaches you about computer software. If you want to learn about computer hardware, there’s a different degree for that.

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • The average intelligence of incoming medical students has fallen precipitously. Would guess that’s a major source for the marginal CS students. Also probably a fair bit of the academia-focused science majors, like physics. Because everyone recognizes that the demographic period means trying to get a tenured position is a fool’s game.

      Wall Street and high finance has also fallen in preeminence relative to the tech sector. So some of the drain’s probably coming from there. Ascribing which majors specifically is a little harder in this context. Would guess that you’re looking at some of the more intelligent econ, accounting, and finance majors.

      Doug

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • “No matter how hard you try, there is only a limited number of people in population who can make it.”

      True that.

      China has a population of 1.3 billion. India also has a population of 1.3 billion. The U.S. only has a population of 0.3 billion. Between China and India, they have more than 8 times as many people as the U.S.

      Right tail psychometrics apply to all these populations. Even if the U.S. has more of a “fat tail” than China or India, the total population sizes of these Asian countries increases the absolute number of people in their population “who can make it”. If you flood the U.S. colleges and the job market with those people, the effects of “brain drain” are as real for the U.S. as for India. How many Indians does The Lion have to sme…. uh work with?

      I have known quite a few adults who grew up in either India, or China, and who are now making six figures working in the U.S. As I recall, all the ones who I talked to all came from successful ‘elite’ families. One of them was the son of a nuclear scientist working on India’s atom bomb program.

      No matter how successful their families were in the old country, they couldn’t get clean drinkable tap water, except by moving to a Western country. Some of them decided to pass their family fortunes to the oldest son, while making all the other children go to the U.S. and study computer science.

      You start selecting the crème of the crop out of a pool of two and a half billion, and send them to a country with only a few hundred million, and what do you think that’s going to do to the demographics of the CS major? What did it do to the demographics of Stuyvesant high (73% Asian)?

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • Smart Jews either moved out of NYC or became rich enough to send their kids to better private schools, thus abandoning Stuyvesant to the Asians.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • China and India are very different, many Chinese cities these days are not less or even more modern than American cities. Even developing countries like Thailand has decent infrastructure and quality of life comparing to India. So the motivation of people from those countries to come to the US is very different.

        As for the level of people going into CS, you don’t need to be a genius, it is just applied math and algorithms, you are not required to come with anything remotely original like in advance math degrees. So if you are not that smart all you have to do is practice a bit more and you will be fine usually.

        Hashed

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • “many Chinese cities these days are not less or even more modern than American cities.”

        Yes, there’s some super high-tech stuff and impressive buildings in the leading cities of mainland China. If you try to drink the tap water raw, you will still become extremely ill.

        “As for the level of people going into CS, you don’t need to be a genius, it is just applied math and algorithms, you are not required to come with anything remotely original like in advance math degrees.”

        I don’t have a PhD in either field, but I took 400 level classes in both subjects, including a senior seminar math class. Based on my experience, I can’t corroborate your conclusions about the relative intellects of people in these fields.

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 25, 2019 at EST pm

      • “Smart Jews either moved out of NYC or became rich enough to send their kids to better private schools, thus abandoning Stuyvesant to the Asians”

        Yes, I know about that. Interesting to note, and valuable information for numerous considerations. Also doesn’t undermine my main points about immigration, demographics, and education. With no Asians, and lots of poor Ashkenazim C.S. at the college level might be dominated by the same demographics that once dominated the student body of Stuyvesant. However, for the reasons I’ve stated, both of these things are dominated by Asians who would have been the cognitive crème of the crop in their countries of origin.

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 25, 2019 at EST pm

      • So what if you can’t drink tap water? There are enough seven elevens in every street corner to buy bottled water or serviced watercooler at home. Life in a chinese city are not worst than life in NY overall.

        Hashed

        January 25, 2019 at EST pm

      • “So what if you can’t drink tap water? There are enough seven elevens in every street corner to buy bottled water or serviced watercooler at home. Life in a chinese city are not worst than life in NY overall.”

        but, American universities are still better, and right now they confer status in China (unlike, say Japan, where they confer no status)

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 27, 2019 at EST pm

    • Computer Science degree (BA) in the US is very light on Math (Calculus I and II, most bright kids take them in high school + Computational Linear Algebra) and has zero Physics in it. Computer Science degree (BA) adds two science courses like Intro to Physics and Chemistry (again, most bright kids take them in high school).

      My 2¢

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • Oops! The second degree is BS.

        My 2¢

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  6. It appears some of your readers picked up on something you missed — many of those comp sci majors are likely foreigners hoping that a degree from an American University will improve their chance of being hired by an American company and lead to citizenship. This oversupply of STEM majors from the 3rd world is actually pushing Americans out of STEM fields not leading to an increase.

    destructure

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • So you think that accounts for all of the doubling? Asked sincerely, I’m not sure.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • CS is a growing field. So the absolute number of American CS majors is probably higher. But Americans are probably a smaller percentage of CS majors. This would be especially true if one grouped the children of immigrants with foreigners.

        destructure

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • PS: I’m fairly confident but haven’t looked it up.

        destructure

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • For the life of me, I thought I read Lion ranting on this exact phenomenon. I recall him saying that part of the problem was that third worlders have very low status with women, and that by having them fill a field of human endeavor, it dropped the status of the Americans doing the same thing. Hence American males were de-motivated to compete in hard classes that wouldn’t have an immediately obvious benefit to their status.

      Wonder where I read that if it wasn’t here?

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • Sounds like something I agree with!

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • Lion should be encouraging white people to study finance, law, banking, journalism. Leave boring dead end jobs like software development, quality testing to 3rd worlders !!

        mpt

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • A Master’s degree is a back-door into an H1B visa. For a holder of a Master’s degree, the employer does not have to show they searched and were unable to hire a suitable native applicant at the industry-standard wage.

      It’s a HUGE loop-hole, which is why you see so many foreign grad students. And yes, they pay full-freight, which is why Uni’s are so sensitive about open borders… it’s not just a virtue signal, it’s a pocketbook issue too!

      Portlander

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  7. East Asians + Brown Indians ?

    Bruno

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • yes

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  8. Lion,
    What do you make of coding bootcams for those without a CS degree?
    Is it possible to learn data science in 5 months? Could you get a job afterwards?

    Larry

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • I don’t know.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • “What do you make of coding bootcams for those without a CS degree?
      Is it possible to learn data science in 5 months? Could you get a job afterwards?”

      It is my understanding that they don’t try to teach you “data science” whatever that means. Instead they try to teach you what you need to know to function in a specific programming environment. What are the programs and commands your future co-workers use every day and how do they work. This is more valuable to many employers than a lot of the stuff in many computer science courses.

      The good boot camps are also very selective about who they admit. They won’t admit you if they don’t think they can find you a job if you complete the program. Of course the bad boot camps just want your money.

      I think this right but it isn’t based on personal experience.

      James B. Shearer

      January 25, 2019 at EST pm

      • James,

        That’s what I’ve heard. What do you think of the bootcamps vs. websites like codewars? Any opinion?

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 27, 2019 at EST pm

      • “That’s what I’ve heard. What do you think of the bootcamps vs. websites like codewars? Any opinion?”

        I am unfamiliar with websites like codewars.

        One thing about programming is that people vary a lot in their aptitude for it and that this matters even at the top end. That is while for example a very good truck driver isn’t much more valuable than a good truck driver a very good programmer can be much more valuable than a good programmer. This is because of the multiplier effect of running the same program on many computers even small advantages add up. So top end programmers can potentially make a lot of money. But if you aren’t in the top 10% of aptitude you probably shouldn’t be working as a programmer and if you aren’t in the top 1% (.1%) you won’t be competitive for the good (best) jobs.

        Another thing about programming is that it can be hard for potential employers to distinguish between good programmers and bad programmers (or between very good programmers and good programmers and so on). A degree in computer science indicates that you are interested in computers but I don’t know if it demonstrates much else. Science majors traditionally required tough introductory level courses that were designed to quickly screen out the students who didn’t have enough aptitude to be successful. I don’t know if computer science departments (particularly at weaker schools) do the same. If not they will probably be granting lots of computer science degrees to students who aren’t in the top 10% of aptitude. This really hurts such students as they will have spent years of their lives (and potentially a lot in tuition) to obtain a degree which is basically worthless.

        I have heard that a way to demonstrate ability without academic credentials is to get involved in a free software project. If you can get lots of your code accepted into a meaningful project people should notice. This shows ability to program and the basic level of social skills required to contribute to a group project. Of course this requires working for free for a period of time but getting a computer science degree can be expensive too. Again however this is not based on personal experience and probably works best when you are really good.

        James B. Shearer

        January 27, 2019 at EST pm

  9. Long Island highschool students taking computer summer camp at StonyBrook University. By the way, Long Island is in America.

    peterike

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • One white girl, and one white boy.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • I thought there was a black girl, but when I enlarged the picture I realized she’s a very dark South Asian.
        Two of the “boys,” the East Asian in the blue shirt on the far left and the South (West?) Asian in the Hogwarts shirt third from right both look like they would have graduated high school a decade ago.

        Peter

        ironrailsironweights

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • I would assume those two are teachers or graduate TAs.

        Hermes

        January 25, 2019 at EST am

    • lol

      Fact Checker

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  10. more surprising to lion’s readers may be how abysmal CS majors’ SATs and GREs are. worse than soc majors. they do ok on the math section but are verbally retarded.

    thou art rock hudson, and upon this rock i will found libertarianism

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • How are their TOFL scores compared to soc majors?

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • *TOEFL*

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  11. From previous write ups here Lion mentioned that Computer Science was a bad major, one with diminishing future usefulness. If true than all the foreigners entering this field of study aren’t making a very wise move, which flies in the face of the idea that foreign students have their shit together.

    Armando

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • Agree.

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 27, 2019 at EST pm

  12. My son was a computer science major. Most of his co-majors were American citizens who were the children of immigrants. Russians, Indians, Chinese. Immigrants who settle here have always understood that their children can’t afford to waste their time/money on a liberal arts major. You have to be at least third generation to do liberal arts.

    My second son majored in applied math, which is a combination of statistics and operations research. He said it was like going to a high-end trade school. (One course was a really deep dive into what you can do w/ spreadsheets, I remember.) His big problem was that most of the professors were Chinese and he had trouble understanding them.

    amused observer

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • “You have to be at least third generation to do liberal arts.” – Not even close. Most of my colleagues are 1st generation who work in tech industry (H1b’s). Some of them are old enough whose kids are going to colleges. What are they studying? Dentist and Medicine for like 80% of them. They all want their kids to be doctors or something to do with medical field. Only a very few of them encourage their kids to study computer science.

      mpt

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  13. As of 2016, graduating with a STEM major automatically allows the graduate to stay and work in the U.S. for three years. Non-STEM only get one year. B-schools are getting their majors STEM certified! It’s a big scam.

    Does this account for all of the growth? No, but my guess is it is a significant contributor and any serious analysis would have to explore the contribution.

    https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2016/03/10/may-10-2016-stem-f-1-visa-students-can-work-3-years-opt-45656/

    bitterclinger13

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • I agree that foreigners know all the loopholes to stay here and steal jobs from native Americans.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • I’m sure there are consultants who advise foreigners on how to do it. But the real scam is with corporate lobbyists who pushed the legislation in the first place. Motive was to drive wages down. I suspect all this feminist crap about not being enough women in STEM was astroturf funded by big tech to undermine american resistance to H1Bs. They use a coalition of feminists and foreigners to turn white men into the enemy. But I suspect the gender imbalance is actually much higher among the H1Bs and immigrant programmers.

        destructure

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • Yes, there are consultants and ethnic social organizations that offer these services. Scamming and ripping off the government is common knowledge and people share the information.

        Yakov

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • All the furloughed federal workers should be replaced with h1b’s and illegal aliens at half the wages and pensions

        Borneo

        January 25, 2019 at EST am

  14. The Lion should use his spare time to learn more about Asian culture. In America SJWs are a major social pre-occupation. In the parts of America where SJWs are sparse, Jeebus and his Godly agenda are a major social pre-occupation. In Asia, people don’t care about any of this, and it makes no sense to them at all if you try to explain it.

    In Asia, the most important thing is family. Parents do all kinds of things for their children. However, that help always comes with strings. If you come from a good family, there’s a high probability that your parents make or influence most of your important decisions even when you’re an adult. I had a job where I was unofficially managing a team of Indians living in the U.S. I got to learn way too much about their personal lives.

    One guy was saving dowry money so that his sister could get married. He had a girl he wanted to get married to, but her family didn’t have dowry money, and if he didn’t come up with that dowry money to turn around and give it to his sister, that money situation could prevent her from getting married. Another guy (my best worker) got married to a woman he’d only met two weeks ago. This year they attended my wedding with their son.

    The cost of a dowry goes way up when an Indian involved in the process has an IT job in America, kind of like how housing prices will go way up if everyone in a neighborhood makes lots of money, while equivalent houses cost much less when the people in that area can’t afford to pay the higher price. Just try to imagine a family that arranges marriages letting their children choose to major in anything that ends with “studies”.

    In America, if your daddy is rich, he can buy you a new car for high school graduation and pay for college, and your chances of majoring in something vocational go down. If your daddy is from Asia, he’s just as generous, but he’s also a total hard-ass who wants to make sure that you will have enough money to support the family when you are his age.

    The only time Asian students in America do worse than American students is when daddy is a rich and powerful government official in China. That means daddy is eyeball deep in piles of bribery money, and can afford to buy you a high powered sports car when you have zero driving experience. It also means that back home he can fix the consequences of any crime short of murder, and the amount of corruption necessary to maintain that lifestyle has eroded the family’s morals and sense of restraint.

    In America, the upper-middle-class Chinese, and the ruling-class Chinese form two separate and distinct social cliques in colleges. This is pretty much invisible to American observers who can only tell the difference between American born Chinese, and Chinese from China.

    MoreSigmasThanYou

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • “This year they attended my wedding with their son.

      Weddings, funerals, etc are for family and a handful of very close friends. Not foreigners, coworkers, etc.

      destructure

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • Must have been a big wedding.

        Lowe

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • “Must have been a big wedding.”

        Fifty people bro. We had our share of untermenschen, even a yarmulke wearing Jew.

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 25, 2019 at EST pm

    • Asians are increasingly showing up in SJW professions. Mostly women, but not all. And when they go SJW, they go FULL SJW and are even worse than Americans. Especially Indian women.

      peterike

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • And they have no respect for laws. They are on a mission, law be damned.

        Curle

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • Makes sense, since India has a lot of class based bullying.

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • At my job yesterday we had a presentation from a vendor for a new specific kind of lab test, that was touted as being ” women and minority-owned” in line with my employer’s policy of giving preference to such businesses. It seems that the “woman and minority” in question was not black or Hispanic, which likely would have been more in keeping with the intent of the policy, not that that is any better, but rather an Indian woman. So there you have it. Not only are we importing brahmins to rule over us, we are then giving them formal privileges.

        Hermes

        January 25, 2019 at EST am

      • “At my job yesterday we had a presentation from a vendor for a new specific kind of lab test, that was touted as being ” women and minority-owned” in line with my employer’s policy of giving preference to such businesses. It seems that the “woman and minority” in question was not black or Hispanic, which likely would have been more in keeping with the intent of the policy, not that that is any better, but rather an Indian woman. So there you have it. Not only are we importing brahmins to rule over us, we are then giving them formal privileges.”

        When I worked as a contractor for The Pentagon, I worked for a ‘women and minority-owned’ business. The business was owned by my boss’s wife, and had only two employees that I know of: me, and my boss. The funny thing is they weren’t Hindus. They were Muslims.

        So the DoD was dropping bombs on Muslims in their own countries, and then turning around and giving preferential treatment to other Muslims living inside our borders. Of course the mandatory number of women thing works the same in Afghanistan. The U.S. mandates that a certain number of elected positions must be held by women, so the local warlords each pick one of their wives to run for office. When the woman makes decisions, guess who’s really making the decision.

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 25, 2019 at EST pm

      • I also worked for a female minority owned government contractor. The owner was supposedly Native American, but I wouldn’t have known that she wasn’t white. And practically, her white husband owned half the business. (They were kind of prole-ish, so they were nice people.)

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 25, 2019 at EST pm

  15. Most bright US kids go to Economics and related fields because they have language and culture skills and so are better suited for leadership and management jobs (where nuances are important). Those in turn are more lucrative than other jobs. It was like this since at least 40 years ago (as much as can remember).

    My 2¢

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  16. OT: is the Florida bank shooting a case of Beta Rage? Zephen Xaver (weird name) looks sort of nerdy, and all five victims were women. Based on his now-deleted Facebook page he also seems to be a fan of Milo Yiannopoulos and Alex Jones. Somehow I don’t think many of their supporters are Alpha.

    However, there are a some non-Beta things about Zephen. He spent two months as a prison guard trainee, resigning a couple weeks ago, and that is definitely an Alpha-oriented occupation. Until fairly recently he had an off-and-on girlfriend for two years, though we don’t know what she looks like, at least I haven’t found a photo. The ex-girlfriend also says that Zephen is fascinated with death and guns, and often spoke about wanting to hurt people. He was a wrestler back in high school, definitely not a Beta thing. Finally, two of the women he shot were older, 55 and 65, and therefore not the sort who would have made him feel frustrated, though the three others haven’t been publicly identified yet.

    My guess: probably a mental case, schizo most likely, not a raging Beta.

    Peter

    ironrailsironweights

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • I agree with your analysis. Prole loser rage rather than beta-male rage.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • In the manosphere, Alphas are guys who are calm and composed.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • Looks beta to me in this photo:

        Media sources tell us he was into Japanese Anime. Is this a beta thing?

        https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2019/01/23/sebring-shooting-zephen-xaver/2660721002/

        Here’s more details about his former correctional job:

        “Little is known about Xaver, who state officials confirmed late Wednesday was hired in November 2018 to work at Avon Park Correctional Institution near the Avon Park Air Force Range. Patrick Manderfield, a spokesperson for the agency, reported that Xaver “had no discipline while employed with the department,” but resigned…”

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • Perhaps he took the prison job because he thought it would make him more alpha, but then he realized he was afraid of the prisoners.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • > he was into Japanese Anime

        Back in the 90s that was a good sign you were dealing with a weirdo, but not anymore. All kinds of under 25s watch Japanese content now.

        bobbybobbob

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • “Media sources tell us he was into Japanese Anime. Is this a beta thing?”

        No. Omega.

        Curle

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • “took the prison job because he thought it would make him more alpha”

        If he did, then he wins the prize of being Too Dumb To Live.

        njguy73

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • [an Alpha-oriented occupation]

      One of my husband’s brothers who is extremely nerdy and beta was an NYPD trainee before dropping out. He didn’t even bother telling them and just stopped showing up. Since he had been kind enough to leave my name and number as an emergency contact I had an extremely irate sergeant hounding me to disclose his whereabouts (which I didn’t know). I finally told the guy look, I would make a better cop than [husband’s brother] and I’m a wimpy woman. I have no idea why you accepted him as a recruit in the first place!

      toomanymice

      January 28, 2019 at EST am

  17. There is such a thing as the rise of the brogrammer.

    Paul Ryan's Sickly Old Lap Dog

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  18. [Off Topic] Elizabeth Warren proposes a *wealth tax* (2% annually on households with over $50M in assets.) I could support that. Leave the 1% alone!
    https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/elizabeth-warren-planning-wealth-tax-on-americas-rich-report

    (I think Lion should read and review Warren’s book “The Two Income Trap.)
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/23/18183091/two-income-trap-elizabeth-warren-book

    Kosher Kowboy

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • Great idea, and the rich will vote for her anyway because they hate Donald Trump more than they hate paying tax.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • $50M is a lot. I support that.

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • I’ve argued for a wealth tax on this blog. But I’m not sure how it should be structured. Rich people are a very mobile demographic. It’s very easy for them to just surrender their citizenship and buy citizenship in another country. Most people would find that unthinkable. But when you have that kind of money it’s no big deal.

      destructure

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • The income and capital gains taxes should be done away with entirely and replaced with a heavy land value tax. I see no downside and great upsides. It wallops the rich and kills off a lot of rentier activity, and drives commercial activity to lower cost of living areas.

        bobbybobbob

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • Borrow $50 million against your $50 million in assets and you now have a net worth of zero. Hence, avoiding all wealth taxes.

        Or, start a charitable trust or foundation and avoid these wealth taxes completely. You would need to remove every tax deduction and tax dodge from the tax code to effectively access this wealth.

        Besides, Elizabeth Warren and Democrats in general have too much baggage to take them seriously on a matter like this. Between hating white men, and deplorables, and believing in mass immigration, just who do you think is a softer target for them…some poor white guy or a billionaire?

        The purpose of taxes is to raise revenue and whatever optimizes that is best. The optimized tax rate is total tax burden of 25%. That will ensure that revenue is optimized for the government.

        map

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • If a lot of wealthy Democrats surrendered their citizenship to live in another country that itself might be a good thing.

        chris

        January 25, 2019 at EST am

  19. Proles can skip college and move up into the middle-class by doing a prole job for a prole company.

    USA Today, 01/24/19 – Walmart hiring hundreds more truck drivers – and it’s paying nearly $90,000

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/01/24/walmart-hiring-hundreds-more-truck-drivers-shortage-persists/2665704002/

    Walmart is looking to add more truck drivers in the upcoming year as an industry-wide shortage continues to loom. And it’s increasing their pay, too.

    In addition to the more than 1,400 truck drivers hired in 2018, Walmart stated that “hundreds more are slated to join the fleet.” Plus, starting in February, drivers will earn one cent extra per mile as well as additional pay for every arrival – adding up to roughly 89 cents per mile, or an average of $87,500 per year.

    The median salary for a truck driver on a national, irregular route is over $53,000, according to a study last year by the American Trucking Associations…

    This move by Walmart comes at a time when companies are struggling to hire truckers, amid a nationwide shortage that has pushed up freight costs and subsequently increased retail prices.

    Bob Costello, the chief economist of the American Trucking Associations, projected the industry could be short 175,000 drivers by 2026.

    E. Rekshun

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • A job doomed to be replaced by self-driving trucks in a decade.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • Careerism is a trap. Job hopping done right is the path to upward mobility.

        Anonymous Fake

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • It will always be “in a decade”.

        My 2¢

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • I am willing to bet that there are not going to be even one self driving truck on a public road within a decade. Maybe on a dedicated road for self driving vehicles only.

        Hashed

        January 24, 2019 at EST pm

      • A truck on a dedicated road is called an elevator.

        My 2c

        January 25, 2019 at EST am

      • You mean a train.

        Lowe

        January 25, 2019 at EST pm

      • Looks like we are stagnating currently in terms of self driving progress
        https://blog.piekniewski.info/2018/02/09/a-v-safety-2018-update/
        With this disengagment rate the driver probably cannot be made redundant.

        UncleMilton

        January 25, 2019 at EST pm

  20. I’m sure the number of incoming freshmen selecting comp sci is increasing. But what’s the actual increase in comp sci grads?

    It’s a tough gig and most people can’t hack it.

    Kaz

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  21. “What college students really want is to major in something like plumbing or HVAC, but less blue-collar.”
    It would be interesting to see the results if a traditional university started offering a major like that. You could still have the impressive old buildings, the fun dorm parties, and the fancy graduation ceremony + diploma. You could even take gen-ed classes in literature, art history, etc. But your core classes would be related to a skilled blue-collar trade. Would they be able to convince the public that it’s a “real” college degree?

    ack-acking

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

  22. I think another interesting thing is that there’s massive variations in what a Computer Science degree is. The easiest CS degrees could just be learning how to program or basic IT skills. At the other end of the spectrum, actual Computer Science theory – think automata, turing machines, decidability, is extremely challenging. And CS has a lot of content in between those two extremes.

    So I think that mixing of prestige and accessibility is a big draw.

    Alex2

    January 24, 2019 at EST pm

    • Some schools split the easy program off and call the degree “IT management” instead of “Computer Science”. It’s popular with people who want to land a high paying IT job, but don’t like programming computer and don’t want to work really hard. So add that to the list of degrees you shouldn’t get.

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 25, 2019 at EST pm

      • Everybody wants to be a “manager” and no one wants to do the actual work.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 25, 2019 at EST pm

      • ^^^ This.

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 25, 2019 at EST pm

      • It sounds like the easiest way to part proles and their money is with get-rich-quick schemes like this joke degree.

        Why isn’t this illegal?

        Monsieur le Baron

        January 25, 2019 at EST pm

  23. Can’t we put this to bed already?

    Yakov

    January 25, 2019 at EST am

  24. Unrelate, Lion, it looks like you were wrong with Kelly. He is not a anti-migrant who is able to organize things.

    He is a deep state operative who hates Trump. He started by saying the idea of the all has been adandoned. And now, he incites Trump to surrender. The fact that he was Sessions friend is also scary.

    Top management seems to be anti-Trump. It’s lîe the letter had been written by all of them. That’s why he hasn’t build the Wall yet by appropriating funds by executive order.

    Bruno

    January 25, 2019 at EST am

  25. @14.27

    3 choices to be middle class. Finish high school, get married before kids, get a full-time job, any job.

    I think I remember Lion mentioning these at some point?

    chris

    January 25, 2019 at EST am

    • Finish high school, get married before kids, get a full-time job, any job.

      I first heard this great advice over twenty years ago from Pat Buchanan.

      E. Rekshun

      January 25, 2019 at EST am

  26. Has Lion addressed the phenomenon of affluent but not particularly academically inclined white males getting degrees in “Sports Management”? I know a few sons of friends pursuing that career track, and the degree is offered now at schools like UNC, Ohio State and U of Michigan. It is definitely “vocational” but also a good track to avoid competition from Asians and women. I find it kind of funny our economy can support turning out thousands of young people every year with a degree that specialized.

    Peter Akuleyev

    January 25, 2019 at EST am

    • white males getting degrees in “Sports Management”?

      No. Sports Management is a stupid, worthless, fluff degree. Other than selling gym memberships, none of of these grads will ever work in anything sports-related. A few might become coaches. They are getting entry-level retail management trainee positions for $15/hr and working nights and weekends. If they’re lucky, they get hired at Enterprise car rental for $18/hr. They’re not avoiding black females in these positions, in fact, they’re probably being bossed around by them.

      No Where Man

      January 25, 2019 at EST am

    • I’ve thought that schools in the U.S. should offer a “master of sports” degree like the old communist block countries did. Only recruited athletes would be eligible, and the colleges could drop a lot of the charade and scandals around pretending that they’re regular students who have to get passing grades in gen-ed classes.

      That being said, unless you’ve got a real shot at being a pro-athlete after graduation, a “Sports Management” degree is stupid.

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 25, 2019 at EST pm

      • You can’t became a master of Sports by going to college be a se it elwasnt a degree wasn’t a degree, but a very high athletic ranking. Both of my boxing coaches were masters and my track coach was a master of the international class. For example, master time for 5k is 14:00,24, master of the international class is 13:32,24.
        The world record is 12:37.35.

        The colleges offered degrees in Physical Education: BA, MA and PHD. It was an excellent system. My boxing coach was actually writting a PHD at the age of 40. The thesis was the most effective training methods adjustments for various body types in the same weight category. We were the guinea pigs and it was the best time of my life.

        Yakov

        January 27, 2019 at EST pm

    • If you actually want a self-actualizing career in sports that isn’t being a player or health-care (so that includes everything from doctors to physiotherapist/trainer/etc) related, then what you want to do is go to a top 20 school and/or m7 mba and use networks like the sloan conference to brreak in.

      degrees in sports management from crappy public schools are not who the top people at sloan conference hire.

      Simba of the Blogosphere

      January 25, 2019 at EST pm

    • It’s a fake degree so the children of the rich don’t embarrass their parents too much. Oh, he went to U of Michigan, that’s solid enough. And then you never mention it’s for “Sports Management”.

      The people who get these degrees don’t need jobs.

      Monsieur le Baron

      January 25, 2019 at EST pm

  27. Looks like some students see that an old fashioned high prole discipline still works.

    I dont know why Lion despises so much the high proles that tell their kids to take a marketable degree in a directly applicable major and minimize undischargeable debt.

    Bruno Brazil

    January 26, 2019 at EST am

    • It’s the three ladders theory of social class. It’s easier to move up or down on a ladder than it is to jump between ladders.

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 26, 2019 at EST am

    • Lion despises those degrees because you can’t get into elite occupations. Those elite occupations include non profits like Ford Foundation, Goldman sachs, any of the to 15 investment banks, or doing M&A law at Latham or wherever, hedge funds, private equity, or working as a museum curator.

      Getting a nursing degree is working with poor people cleaning their buts and administrating medicine which your Indian doctor, schooled in India, tells you to do.
      Same reason for IT, you will be working with indians, chinese and russians and have to interact with them on a daily basis. You know how Lion hates that BO lol…

      uman

      January 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • Well, someone must learn that they probably will not be a curator in a museum and they need to pay bills. This becomes a life or death situation when it means undischargeable debt

        BrunoBrazil

        January 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • The prestige of being a museum curator or Ford Foundation doesnt pay the bills. Makes no sense unless you aré a trust fund kid.

        Fuck prestige. I want to self actualize reading and travelling with the money of a good job.

        Bruno Brazil

        January 27, 2019 at EST am

      • Like nursing, investment banking is not fun. Any career in finance is unpleasant (independent of any monetary rewards).

        Entry level museum curators earn about $40K annually with a prerequisite of a Master’s degree.

        Prole types don’t care for a musing career even if given the opportunity, and SWPL types avoid smelly STEM disciplines, because the Asian demographic is beneath them and don’t want to associate with them, which lowers their social status.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 27, 2019 at EST am

      • “Entry level museum curators earn about $40K annually”

        Which is a decent salary in Phoenix Arizona!

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 27, 2019 at EST am

      • Yes, but none of its museums are in the caliber of the Metropolitan Museum of Art or whatever institution that defines Gotham Elitism or snobbery.

        https://www.visitphoenix.com/things-to-do/arts-culture/museums/

        Some of your commenters from other parts of Meriprolestan don’t seem to understand that any place west of the Hudson River is not TOOS territory.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 27, 2019 at EST pm

      • 40k for a job that requires a masters? Lets see: 120k in undischargeable debt to earn less than a black car driver, is that right?

        What a stupid business proposition. Looks like there are people who will be much worse off than their parentes.

        Bruno Brazil

        January 28, 2019 at EST am

      • 40K is an entry level salary. Even in Phoenix, an experienced museum curator makes $70K in Phoenix, a lot more money than an experienced limo driver.

        Plus driving a car is a dangerous activity. In the U.S., 2.35 million injuries per year, and 38,000 deaths.

        And if one’s parents paid for the degree, then there’s no student debt at all.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 28, 2019 at EST am

      • Given a surplus of workers in parasitic occupations, the term “make work” is applicable to many industries.

        Furthermore, “elite” work in a vocational setting which often entails making someone else wealthy. The same goes for professionals, most of them who don’t work for themselves, because self-employment can be treacherous.

        Museum curator seems to be a SWPL occupation where no one else is getting wealthy at your expense. Museum directors earn less than the curators, which should set an example that CEOs should also earn significantly less, and anybody in a value transference position should earn less than the value creators.

        Ok, what's who's this again?

        January 28, 2019 at EST am

  28. I guess they didn’t read your infamous blog post, “Why a Career in Computer Programming Sucks”?

    Riff Raff Prole

    January 26, 2019 at EST pm


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: