Lion of the Blogosphere

Is lab-made dairy parve?

The first thing I thought when I read this NY Times article, was whether lab-made dairy is parve and can Orthodox Jews can finally enjoy a cheeseburger and stop having to deal with having two sets of dishes?

And what about vegans?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/02/science/lab-grown-milk.html

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

August 6, 2019 at 9:59 AM

Posted in Religion

27 Responses

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  1. Go contact them and find out:

    https://oukosher.org/

    Ok, what, who's this again?

    August 6, 2019 at 10:23 AM

  2. The rituals of the Orthodox Jews are simply mind-boggling to me. Let’s just say I would have higher expectations from a 110-average IQ population. Or maybe the Orthodox Jews are just the lower percentiles of the bell curve distribution of the Jewish population in the US?

    I for one like smart Jews like Feynman, Einstein, or even Lion – who most certainly don’t follow silly rules.

    PrinzEugen

    August 6, 2019 at 11:14 AM

    • Yes, mind boggling like any legalistic medium, but analyzing and debating what is Kosher can be an intellectual endeavor. Members of Judaism are like accountants and lawyers who are given a large intellectual plane in their profession, yet many accountants especially, more than lawyers, are not very dynamic thinkers or “not that smart”.

      Ok, what, who's this again?

      August 6, 2019 at 11:38 PM

    • ‘Or maybe the Orthodox Jews are just the lower percentiles of the bell curve distribution of the Jewish population in the US?’

      Or maybe you should try to understand a culture on its own terms? Rabbinical Judaism is the form that the Jewish Divine Service took after the destruction of The First Temple. The body of the Law is immense, but a few examples that seem odd are emphasized and used to negatively generalize about the whole.

      Yakov

      August 7, 2019 at 1:02 PM

  3. I highly doubt any group that hasn’t changed its fashion sense going on 400 years will change their thinking on what constitutes meat and dairy. For less stringent jews it will depend on the cell origins of what is being replicated or produced. Lab meat will probably maintain the meat designation but lab ‘dairy’ is being produced with modified yeast so will probably be considered pareve.

    My opinion is all lab grown items are ‘another substance’ so functionally pareve.

    My vegan daughter won’t eat dairy because it encourages the slaughter of the males and calves. I’ll ask her opinion when she’s home.

    toomanymice

    August 6, 2019 at 12:11 PM

  4. The first thing I thought was whether it was healthy. And whether it could be used to make human milk for infants.

    destructure

    August 6, 2019 at 12:28 PM

    • It’s kind of funny that the anti-GMO crowd is so ready to jump on the lab meat/ dairy bandwagon.

      Personally I wouldn’t eat lab grown meat until it’s been safely eaten as long as old fashioned meat. So ask me again in 2.5 million years.

      toomanymice

      August 6, 2019 at 3:09 PM

      • I’d definitely need to see some research to convince me it was the same and/or safe. But if my concerns were satisfied and it was less expensive then I’d eat it.

        destructure

        August 6, 2019 at 10:58 PM

  5. Lion, do you follow Jewish dietary restrictions at all? Do you think any of the dietary laws ever made sense?

    Oswald Spengler

    August 6, 2019 at 5:29 PM

    • I always try to eat some pork on Yom Kippur.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      August 6, 2019 at 10:51 PM

      • It’s interesting that guys like Lion can never find something worthwhile to do that Judaism was restricting them from doing. It’s always a blond shiksa or a ham sandwich on Yom Kippur.

        Yakov

        August 7, 2019 at 12:38 PM

      • Or eating pasta with cheese and meatballs during Passover, which is just as bad.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        August 7, 2019 at 2:19 PM

  6. The primary function of kosher rules is to maintain Jewish social cohesion by setting up dietary restrictions. So Orthodox rabbis will declare lab-made dairy as non-paerve.

    I predict that for the same reason lab-made pork with be declared non-kosher.

    Jimi

    August 6, 2019 at 6:57 PM

    • This is a secondary benefit, but he primary function of the dietary laws is obviously to make eating a conscientious rather then a physiological activity.

      Yakov

      August 7, 2019 at 12:34 PM

      • True, but it’s really based on physiological reasons, maybe with the exception of mixing dairy with meat. Perhaps it’s also physiological, because the prohibition was set by a few Jews who were lactose intolerant.

        Eating pork that is not fully cooked can lead to trichinosis. The pig is a scavenger that eats anything. Eating shellfish can also lead to similar reactions like diarrhea, because they are bottom feeders and thus they are also dirty like the pig. So whoever set these rules had a health reason in mind. Now consuming red meat or lamb meat is not good or clean for the body either, but it is not prohibited in Judaism or Islam.

        One of the reasons why some Jews like Chinese food, because they think Chinese food blows the Parve rules out of the water. For example, Chinese egg rolls contain finely chopped pieces of pork and shrimp, and to some Jews, this gives it an undetectable presence to them. Furthermore, Eastern Asiatics are also lactose intolerant, so there is no diary is involved with their food. The Chinese and Japanese hate milk products and only until recently, they have started to consume diary in moderation.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        August 7, 2019 at 10:00 PM

      • The Jewish tradition doesn’t allege that eating pork is unhealthy or disgusting. In fact 2,000 years ago Rabbi Elazar ben Azariah said that one shouldn’t say, “I abstain from pork because I don’t like it,” but rather that we do so because of G‑d’s commandment.

        Yakov

        August 7, 2019 at 10:55 PM

      • If someone wants to believe in god then that’s their business. And if someone doesn’t want to eat pork then that’s also their business. But when someone tells me that god commanded something then they’ve just made it my business. It makes me want to take a closer look at what else they think god commanded. Such as slaughtering neighboring tribes or blowing themselves up. God never commanded anything. People who claim to speak for god did.

        destructure

        August 7, 2019 at 11:56 PM

      • ‘But when someone tells me that god commanded something then they’ve just made it my business.’

        Religion is founded on the Divine Revelation.

        Yakov

        August 8, 2019 at 1:06 PM

      • ‘God never commanded anything. People who claim to speak for god did.’

        This goes to the very nature of prophecy. There are thinkers who are of the opinion that the prophecy is the prophet’s own understanding of the Divine Will. Many think that this is the opinion of Maimonides in the Guide. This doesn’t make it any less true or obligatory.

        Yakov

        August 8, 2019 at 1:12 PM

      • ‘It makes me want to take a closer look at what else they think god commanded. Such as slaughtering neighboring tribes or blowing themselves up. ‘

        What you need to take a look at is how the practitioners of the religion in question interpreted it. For example, ‘an eye for an eye’ has been famously understood in the Talmud as a monetary compensation. A deeper investigation may not convince one of anything, but he would at least know how extermination of the neighboring tribes was carried out and other things or this nature. Religion is vast and interpretation is the key. Poor Lion was exposed to the vapid version of Judaism and has been traumatized for life. I was fortunate in that by the time I’d encountered reformed and conservative rabbis, I’d already hated them.

        Yakov

        August 8, 2019 at 1:24 PM

      • I don’t remember now which Portuguese king it was who had said after attending a Jewish-Christian disputation, that religion is a matter of faith and cannot be proven by argument. He also added that the Jews had an upper hand because they were sincere in defending their faith as opposed to Christians ,who strived to convert them and controlled the boundaries of the discourse.

        Yakov

        August 8, 2019 at 1:31 PM

      • “Religion is founded on the Divine Revelation.”
        “There are thinkers who are of the opinion that the prophecy is the prophet’s own understanding of the Divine Will.”

        We know existence through our senses and reason. Some may confuse reason with revelation. But that implies a supernatural agent for which there is no evidence.

        “that religion is a matter of faith and cannot be proven by argument.”

        One can usually prove that something exists. But it’s not always possible to prove non-existence. Particularly when the thing which doesn’t exist is vague and poorly defined.

        “What you need to take a look at is how the practitioners of the religion in question interpreted it.”

        I look at both.

        “For example, ‘an eye for an eye’ has been famously understood in the Talmud as a monetary compensation. “

        An ‘eye for an eye’? Wasn’t that from the Code of Hammurabi?

        destructure

        August 9, 2019 at 11:30 PM

  7. I predict that the orthodox rabbis will decide that these foods are not parve. Such a decision would strip them of their power. Everything would be kosher. Why is chicken and milk not kosher? Chickens don’t give milk? So it’s not about halacha, it’s about power. Imagine kosher laws having no relevance in a laboratory grown meat and milk world. It’s not going to happen. The orthodox rabbis will not let it happen.

    Tamir

    August 9, 2019 at 10:48 AM

    • “Why is chicken and milk not kosher? Chickens don’t give milk?”

      This is a valid point. Chickens aren’t mammals. It doesn’t make any sense.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      August 9, 2019 at 11:12 AM

      • Going by the thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother’s milk rule, you shouldn’t be allowed to cook chicken in egg batter but it’s done all the time (fried chicken is often dipped in egg before coated with breading).

        toomanymice

        August 9, 2019 at 12:39 PM

  8. Chicken is a rabbinic prohibiiton.

    Yakov

    August 9, 2019 at 3:34 PM


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