Lion of the Blogosphere

Time to #cancel Mormonism?

with 67 comments

The New York Times article about cancelling Gaugin (who married two 14-year-olds and a 13-year-old) made me think that there’s another person that needs to be #canceled, and that’s Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, just as much of a pedophile as Epstein, who had multiple under-aged teenage wives, two who were only 14. How can we allow this religion to continue to exist? Mitt Romney is such a hypocrite accusing Trump of immorality when he follows the teachings of a pedophile child molester.

After we cancel Mormonism, we can move on to canceling Islam. Mohamed had sex with a 9-year-old. Also, some of Mohamed’s other wives were given a choice between slavery and marrying him, which sounds kind of rapey to me.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

November 26, 2019 at EST am

Posted in Religion

67 Responses

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  1. I know Lion is just having fun with us and his Buttigieg prognostications, but how is he gonna win anything with zero black support?

    https://www.theroot.com/pete-buttigieg-is-a-lying-mf-1840038708

    (I usually avoid The Root but it was trending on twitter so I took a gander. I don’t understand how this writer gets away with using the word “negro” and using a lower-case “n” at that. I guess he’s being ironic.

    gothamette

    November 26, 2019 at EST am

    • Ain’t nothing wrong for a black man to use the magic negro word. Every negro is magical.

      The Social Justice Warrior

      November 26, 2019 at EST am

    • My cousin who was raised a lily-white conservative Christian but rebelled and became a woke SJW Black Lives Matter Bernie Sanders-supporting Democratic Socialist just retweeted that article.

      Hermes

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • If Buttigieg is “racist,” that just speaks well of him.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • I feel sorry for you. I hope you don’t have to attend Thanksgiving with this guy.

        I would love for someone to research whether it’s true that the gov’t spends $23BN more on white school districts than minority school districts. I smell BS.

        gothamette

        November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • I agree, but of course he’s not “racist.” Like any good liberal Democrat, he imagines himself to be anti-racist. It’s just that in the fevered imaginations of the woke, the non-woke don’t fully grasp how deep the rabbit-hole of racism in our racist society goes, and so the quaint, tone-deaf attempts of mainstream liberal Democrats to be anti-racist really just advance the cause of white supremacy.

        Hermes

        November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • “Majority-minority schools receive $23 billion less in funding than majority-white schools”

        It doesn’t sound ridiculous because a lot of minority-majority schools are in poor states like MS, AL and NM where the white schools are also comparatively underfunded when compared with schools in other states, think MA or WA.

        Note the dog that doesn’t bark here. The author didn’t compare minority and majority schools in the same school district, city or even state. It was likely for a reason.

        Curle

        November 26, 2019 at EST pm

  2. Until a generation ago, the age of consent and marriage in most state’s was 16, and in many it was 13 or 14. In traditional societies there is no teenage-hood. After puberty you are an adult for most purposes and need to get on with your life. Midshipmen entered the British Navy at 14, and apprentices started at that age, too. So, what Joseph Smith did a hundred plus years ago is not relevant to today’s Mormons. Mohammed is another matter entirely, since his marriage to Alisha is the model for modern Muslims.

    By the way, pedophilia in law and dictionaries is sex with pre-pubescent children. Sex with post-pubescent teenagers is ephebophilia.

    bob sykes

    November 26, 2019 at EST am

    • Teens would be happier/healthier if they were forced to do something real with their life instead of languishing in today’s schools.

      I also reject the term pedophilia when it comes to sex with a woman who has undergone puberty and is fertile.

      fakeemail

      November 26, 2019 at EST am

      • I’m only saying that if Epstein is a “pedophile,” then so is Joseph Smith.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        November 26, 2019 at EST am

      • Did Epstein marry his?
        Commitments vs flings seems pretty meaningful.

        Half Canadian

        November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • Polygamous marriages are more evil than paying for sex.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • Yes, teens would be happier that way.

        Which is why it ain’t happening.

        njguy73

        November 26, 2019 at EST pm

    • Of course, Joseph Smith was considered a pervert by his peers at the time, which is why Mormons had to flee to Utah. More for the polygamy of course, but even in Smith’s time young women generally got married in their late teens/early twenties. Marrying 13 year olds has always been a bit abnormal in the West.

      Peter Akuleyev

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

    • “Polygamous marriages are more evil than paying for sex.”

      No, they are not. Polygamous marriage is not uncommon in the world. Paying for sex is degradation.

      gothamette

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • Polygamy causes a lot more social damage than prostitution.

        Lowe

        November 27, 2019 at EST am

      • Explain.

        gothamette

        November 27, 2019 at EST pm

      • @gothamette

        You mentioned that polygamy is common in the world, which I think is a great point. Most of the world is also utter shit, with high poverty and crime, and no innovation to speak of.

        Whereas prostitution at its worst only affects the margins of a society, since most women will not become prostitutes, and most men will not become johns, no matter what, polygamy is a rot that affects a society through-and-through.

        In Africa it is not uncommon in polygamous societies for older, wealthy, and connected men to have 4 or 5 wives, while young, less successful men have none. If you are such a man, why not be a criminal? Why innovate for future generations, made up of children who are not yours? Why do anything but try to migrate somewhere else, where there might be women available? Or free food and entertainment at least.

        Lowe

        November 27, 2019 at EST pm

      • “You mentioned that polygamy is common in the world, which I think is a great point. Most of the world is also utter shit, with high poverty and crime, and no innovation to speak of.”

        I don’t agree that most of the world is utter shit, with high poverty and crime.

        First, high poverty isn’t necessarily associated with crime. There are many societies with low crime and high poverty. This is very much a modern urban phenomenon.

        Second, where did you get the idea that “most of the world” is utter shit? Have you been outside the US? If so, was it really all “utter shit”?

        I’m not in favor of polygamy – nor am I in favor of prostitution. I think they’re both bad and probably work together to oppress both men and women.

        gothamette

        November 29, 2019 at EST am

    • Age of first marriage in western european cultures has been around 20 for ages. Marrying a 14 year old has been kind of weird for a very long time. Much younger remained normal in eastern europe (and everywhere else), though.

      What has changed is that while the bride was typically 21, the groom was very often 30-ish. A man had to prove he could make money and support a household before any father would allow. Your typical 23 yo man was still finishing up an apprenticeship or getting a business going.

      bobbybobbob

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

    • “what Joseph Smith did a hundred plus years ago is not relevant to today’s Mormons.”

      Thirteen and fourteen was young enough to cause an outcry and was the root cause of his killing all those years ago about which he’s treated as a victim by Mormons instead of a guy getting his just deserts.

      Curle

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

    • I do not find regular Mormons (who have renounced polygamy) to be particularly problematic at the present time.

      Joseph Smith doesn’t impress me. Fundamentalist Mormons who still practice polygamy are awful. We have a community of them here in B.C.

      But Islam is worse and much more dangerous because it is vastly more widespread.

      Mohammed was more realistic in his restricting polygamy to the few who could afford it. Smith was from a society that had been monogamous for a very long time and he did not think it through.

      Fundamentalist Mormons could not exist an entire society on their own.

      The existing communities are made up of a few men and many women. Since they can’t stop males from being 50% of births, there is a problem with excess males. Currently they’re simply kicked out as teenagers and forced to live in the surrounding society.

      It can only exist if there is a surrounding society that can absorb these excess males.

      Mohammed was far more realistic. Not that I have any fondness for Islam. I don’t.

      But Islam does exist as entire societies since most men can afford to take only one wife.

      Even so, Islam has other problems. It takes an extreme view: for example, Muslims cannot become atheists or switch their religion, on pain of death. It has other violent punishments for various things. Mohammed went into great detail on how Muslims should live.

      Islam has had problems with extremely violent groups like ISIS emerging all through its history, After all, they are only following their scriptures.

      Frau Katze

      November 27, 2019 at EST am

    • Puberty didn’t begin until 14/15 year old in a lot of traditional agricultural societies. Nowadays puberty can start as early as 8 in really obese girls. That’s why end of puberty is no longer a good determination of “adulthood”.

      GondwanaMan

      November 27, 2019 at EST am

  3. How many 13 and 14 year olds are virgins now? I mean, even I in my little way and not having had the benefit of a religious education early on, started at 14 55 years ago. What the hell are they talking about? 13-14 is the right age to start. I should have done it tn the framework of marriage, but otherwise there was no problem with that. First they deny HBD, now the deny healthy sexuality? #Cancel Newyorktimes.

    Yakov

    November 26, 2019 at EST am

    • 13 or 14, yes. But nine years old, as Islam permits?

      Frau Katze

      November 27, 2019 at EST am

      • As a matter of practice hardly anyone in the Islamic word supports the idea that a 9 year old is suitable for marriage. You can look up the sources youself.

        In our tradition the age of 3 is mentioned as being suitable for conjugal relations, but no one has ever done it. 12 for a girl had always been acceptable as a matter of law, but not necessarily as a matter of practice .

        For when Abraham came from Mount Moriah, he was informed that Rebecca had been born. Isaac was then thirty-seven years old, for at that time Sarah died, and from the time that Isaac was born until the “Binding” [of Isaac], when Sarah died, were thirty-seven years, for she was ninety years old when Isaac was born, and one hundred and twenty-seven when she died, as it is stated (above 23:1): “The life of Sarah was [a hundred and twenty seven years.”] This makes Isaac thirty-seven years old, and at that time, Rebecca was born. He waited for her until she would be fit for marital relations-three years-and then married her. — [From Gen. Rabbah 57:1

        Yakov

        November 27, 2019 at EST am

  4. אמר רב חסדא האי דעדיפנא מחבראי דנסיבנא בשיתסר ואי הוה נסיבנא בארביסר

    Rav Ḥisda said: The fact that I am superior to my colleagues is because I married at the age of sixteen, and if I would have married at the age of fourteen,

    הוה אמינא לשטן גירא בעיניך א”ל רבא לר’ נתן בר אמי אדידך על צוארי דבריך משיתסר ועד עשרים ותרתי ואמרי לה מתמני סרי עד עשרים וארבעה

    I would say to the Satan: An arrow in your eye, i.e., I would not be afraid of the evil inclination at all.

    Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Kiddushin 29b.

    The earlier you marry, the more pure your mind is going to be. This is very simple.

    Yakov

    November 26, 2019 at EST am

    • “The earlier you marry, the more pure your mind is going to be. “

      I agree. Whenever this issue comes up, people start howling that marrying before 25 increases one’s risk of divorce. That’s bull. Most people will have about the same risk of divorce whether they marry at 18 or 40. When it was common for people to marry young the divorce rate was very low. Now that it’s common for people to wait, the divorce rate is much higher. Yes, people who wait have a lower divorce rate than those who marry young… today. But it’s still much, much higher than those who married young in previous generations. It’s a matter of self-selection bias not age. Waiting doen’t make dirtbags virtuous. However, it will provide many more years for someone to succumb to temptation.

      destructure

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • True words, if there ever were ones.

        Yakov

        November 26, 2019 at EST pm

  5. OT: Lion, what happened to your Anonymous coverage? What do you make of the Snodgrass model?

    Blue Tribe Dissident

    November 26, 2019 at EST am

  6. Let’s #cancel Islam, too. Muhammad, the founder of Islam, married a 6 year old.

    “The majority of traditional sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of six , but she stayed in her parents’ home until the age of nine, according to Ibn Hisham,[31] when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina. ”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad%27s_wives

    In the present day Muslims can marry 4 wives at the same time.

    Rosenmops

    November 26, 2019 at EST am

  7. Are you implying Epstein started or about to start some sort of religion?

    My 2c

    November 26, 2019 at EST am

  8. If Mormonism gets canceled, it will be for RACISM!!!, not teen sex. Although our society currently considers a man a RAPIST for doing anything sexual with a girl up to 11:59 and 59 seconds the night before the birthday that brings her up to the age of consent, it tends to be willing to write off such things a hundred years ago when they were legal and not uncommon. It’s like historical context is a valid excuse when it comes to that… but not when it comes to RACISM. SJWs now routinely explain that even 19th century abolitionists were evil because they still often held the view that blacks were generally less capable or whatever. Mormonism only recently ceased to be anti-black and for that there is no excuse. If any person, group, or institution has ever been RACIST, there is nothing for it other than for them to be utterly destroyed.

    Hermes

    November 26, 2019 at EST pm

    • The Mormons gave up their racism 35 years ago. Get with the times.

      gothamette

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

  9. If you ask me, Mormonism needs to be canceled not on account of what its founder did almost 200 years ago, but for what it promotes nowadays, which is large scale 3rd world immigration. The funny thing is, the LDS church could only exist in a reasonably homogeneous, high trust society due to the rules its adherents observe, e.g. tithing, in-group charity, abstention from alcohol and pre-marital sex, etc. etc. Bring in a bunch of people from places and cultures where cheating and poor impulse control are the norm, and the whole thing falls apart.

    Sgt. Joe Friday

    November 26, 2019 at EST pm

    • Yes, and for being anti-Trump Republicans. I used to think that at least they were good conservatives, even if they have some weirdo beliefs. But no, they are not. They are cuckservatives.

      Roger

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • Strongly religious people who belong to a proselytizing religion (Christianity, Islam, Mormonism) will always favour bring in their “brothers & sisters”.

        It sucks. Catholic groups are heavily involved in bring in 3rd worlders, for example.

        Frau Katze

        November 27, 2019 at EST pm

  10. I recently visited Salt Lake City Mormon sites and monuments out of curiosity. I believe that currently, Mormonism is the only healthy religion. Mormons have a very bright future.

    My 2¢

    November 26, 2019 at EST pm

    • I’ve read the Church massively inflates it’s membership and that access to the internet, as a mechanism for transmitting information previously suppressed in the Mormon community, such as Jos Smith’s many swindles and perversions, is taking a terrible toll on young Mormons who are leaving in droves.

      Mormons are shocked to learn what a creep he was.

      Curle

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

  11. I agree with My 2cents regarding Mormons. In my 36 years of teaching & coaching I dealt with many Mormon kids and their families. An I’ve never met a bad one. Which I can not say about standard Christians. With out a doubt every Mormon I’ve met is a moral person who will go out of their way to help not only other Mormons but all kinds of other people as well.

    As an unbeliever in any religion I have been consistently impressed with he caliber of student that these families have produced..

    Oden's Raven

    November 26, 2019 at EST pm

    • Mormons seem to be good people and if you could pick your neighbors, I’d probably pick Mormons as neighbors over about any other group.

      Their beliefs are crazy of course, but hey, can’t have everything.

      Mike Street Station

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • Religious Mormons have a weird Stepford Wives vibe about them, you don’t want them as neighbors.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        November 26, 2019 at EST pm

  12. In the 1820s most people in America were farmers and it was normal for a young girl of 13-15 years of age to get married. The polygamy issue is a while different can of worms…but the ages of the girls involved needs to be seen from the perspective of American culture at the time.

    Tbone (@SavorDaJourney)

    November 26, 2019 at EST pm

    • I’ve done extensive genealogy on my own family tracing every direct ancestral line back at least 400 years. I’ve yet to find a single person who married younger than 17. All this talk about how girls used to get married at 15 is more myth than reality. It may have happened but was never the norm.

      destructure

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • My tree only goes back to about 1700. Youngest bride I can find is 18. The average age is 23. Marriages took place between 1820 and 1950. Before about 1920 the location was rural Scotland and England.

        Rosenmops

        November 27, 2019 at EST am

    • Sounds bogus to me. I’d buy that 18 wasn’t unheard of, but I challenge you to provide some evidence that girls were getting married at 13-15 in 1820s America.

      Hermes

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • There ought to be records of when people were born and when they were married.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • Your DNA has a record of two important dates for pretty much each ancestor you had: date of birth and date when they gave birth.

        My 2¢

        November 27, 2019 at EST pm

      • @Lion Such records do exist. Scotland has found a new money-maker: selling records to the descendants of very numerous Scots who left.

        But there’s a cutoff, I’m not sure how far back it goes, but it’s around 100 years I think. Families often know the dates of the recent ones already.

        Quality of records varies by country. Some places lost records during WW II.

        The UK seems pretty good, going back to about 1800 in both Scotland and England.

        Frau Katze

        November 27, 2019 at EST pm

      • @My 2cents How does your DNA tell you your birthdate? Much less when you gave birth yourself.

        Frau Katze

        November 27, 2019 at EST pm

      • @Frau Katze It is all in mutations. DNA changes drastically when your are conceived, then slowly during your life. You add 9 months to every drastic change to get the date of birth, which is coincidentally the date someone gave birth to that person. Knowing DNA of every person in the world is enough to figure out DNA and dates of birth of many generations of ancestors. Of course, it would depend on available processing power, but some simple info like average age at which people gave birth and associated standard deviations would be easy to calculate with moderate computing power.

        My 2¢

        November 28, 2019 at EST pm

      • @my two cents

        You come in to existence when you’re conceived. There is little change in your after that.

        Frau Katze

        November 28, 2019 at EST pm

      • @Frau Katze About three new mutations in sperm and about one new mutation in egg per year of parent’s life is carried to the baby. It can be used to look back at our ancestors and their reproductive habits.

        My 2¢

        November 29, 2019 at EST am

      • @My two cents I’ve never heard that DNA changes “drastically” at conception. Sometimes you do get a mutation, as in Down’s syndrome.

        Mutations also tend to be undesirable and even if the fetus survives to full term, many mutations reduce fertility. But some likely occur in parts of the DNA that no longer have any function so no one knows about it.

        Most people don’t get a mutation that has an effect. Cases where they do are few and far between,

        The hemophilia gene in the UK royal family must have been carried by Queen Victoria as more than one child was affected. There was an example you could use. But that’s not very common.

        I’ve never heard of this drastic change you’re speaking of. And you certainly don’t the DNA data of anyone from the past.

        Frau Katze

        November 29, 2019 at EST pm

      • @Frau Katze Look up sexual reproduction and different types of sperm and egg meiosis.

        My 2¢

        November 30, 2019 at EST pm

      • “Look up sexual reproduction and different types of sperm and egg meiosis.”

        23 and Me and other DNA companies don’t supply any such date so no one is going to be able to use that information.

        Mike Street Station

        December 1, 2019 at EST am

  13. Joseph Smith’s first wife, Emma Hale, denied her whole life that her husband had been a polygamist. In fact, she broke off from the main Mormon church because Brigham Young and the others were practicing polygamy. Regardless, researchers believe Joseph may have had as many as 27 wives. There were a couple who were 14. But most were in the 20s, 30s, 40s and even 50s. 50s?!!! Yeah, that’s what I thought. So what was going on. Was his first wife lying? Was he really banging 14 year olds one night and a 58 year old the next? No.

    The clue to what was going on is found in DNA. He had 11 children with his first wife. But DNA analysis has never found that he fathered a child with any of those other “wives”. There’s no evidence he ever had sex with them. In fact, some of them were already married when they were “sealed” in the temple. Some of them got married to other men only a few weeks after they were “sealed”. And, in the case of the 14 year olds, they continued to live with their parents and later married someone else.

    So what was going on? Simple. He only ever had one earthly wife. The other marriages were spiritual not sexual. Mormons have strange beliefs about the afterlife. They believe that if you’re “sealed” to someone in the temple that you’ll be with them in the afterlife. They wanted to be “sealed” to the prophet in the afterlife. It was merely a ceremony to insure their salvation and that of their families. Other mormons were polygamous, especially after Joseph Smith died. But that’s a different story.

    The real question is — why is Leon so desperate to excuse Epstein?

    destructure

    November 26, 2019 at EST pm

    • “On December 29, 1873, Ebenezer and Angeline Robinson signed an affidavit saying that Hyrum Smith had come to their house in the fall of 1843 to teach them the doctrine of polygamy.”

      “Apostle Orson Pratt’s wife testified…

      “One day they came both, Joseph and [Doctor] Bennett, on horseback to my house. Bennett dismounted, Joseph remained outside. Bennett wanted me to return to him a book I had borrowed from him. It was a so-called doctor-book. I had a rapidly growing little family and wanted to inform myself about certain matters in regard to babies, etc., — this explains my borrowing that book.”

      “While giving Bennett his book, I observed that he held something in the left sleeve of his coat. Bennett smiled and said: ‘Oh, a little job for Joseph; one of his women is in trouble.’ Saying this. he took the thing out of his left sleeve. It was a pretty long instrument of a kind I had never seen before. It seemed to be of steel and was crooked at one end.”

      “I heard afterwards that the operation had been performed; that the woman was very sick, and that Joseph was very much afraid that she might die, but she recovered.” – Testimony of Apostle Orson Pratt’s wife, Sarah Pratt from “Joseph Smith the Prophet: His Family and Friends”

      Curle

      November 26, 2019 at EST pm

      • Brigham Young had tasked Pratt with defending polygamy. And there’s no better way to do that than to claim their founder / prophet was secretly polygamous himself. So I find his wife’s “testimony” a little too convenient. Many historians do, as well. Which is why many of her claims regarding Smith have been dismissed.

        It’s more likely that a man who had 11 children with his first wife and none with the other 27 “wives” wasn’t having sex with them than they were all having a shit-ton of abortions. Especially at a time when medicine was still fairly primitive and dangerous. Not to mention, they weren’t living with him and many were either already married or married other men shortly after the ceremony. This is completely different than what was going on with the other mormon leaders. It’s much more likely that their being “sealed” to Smith was for spiritual reasons. Sort of like a baptism or annointing with oil. They wanted to be with the “prophet” in the afterlife. A lot of women are very religious so this would be important to them. If one understands mormon beliefs this makes sense.

        destructure

        November 27, 2019 at EST pm

      • “Many historians do, as well.“

        Historians who aren’t members of the church?

        Curle

        November 27, 2019 at EST pm

  14. When we lived in Boise, Idaho, during the late 60’s thru the early 70’s, we lived across the street from an 87 year old lady who came west with her parents with Brigham Young. She claimed that her father had 7 wives with 67 children. (including her)

    She was a lovely lady who would occasionally look after our kids for us. In return I would mow her lawn and she and my wife would exchange cooking bits.

    The people on our left were also Mormon and had only three kids, just a we did. We used to play doubles tennis with them and our son ran around the court chasing errant balls
    They were perfectly normal in every way except that they believed the preaching of John Smith.

    Oden's Raven

    November 27, 2019 at EST pm

  15. Maybe the lady across the street meant that her father and mother and his wives came out with Brigham young and that she was born in Idaho later in their lives. Other wise the time sequence doesn’t make sense

    Oden's Raven

    November 27, 2019 at EST pm

  16. British scientists concluded in 1971 that: “in classical antiquity the time of menarche was fairly constant at around the age of fourteen and probably remained at about that age until the beginning of the modern era, But c. 1500, or earlier, a retardation of menarche began throughout Europe … By the end of the eighteenth century this process of retardation had produced the very high figure of 17·5-18 years, at least in northern Europe. In the early nineteenth century, perhaps c. 1830, there began a progressive decline in the age of menarche, which now seems to be levelling out at around the age of 14·0-14·5.” This partly explains why many here think that 15 is too early for a woman to get married. I think women are definitely adults and ready to be wives and mothers at 15 if they are supported by husbands or somebody else. I know few women from my school who fell in love and got pregnant and legally married at 15 and then became mothers at 16. They are all from good families (e.g. school teacher parents etc.) and doing totally fine having two to three grown children now.

    My 2c

    November 27, 2019 at EST pm

    • I’ve read that malnutrition can delay menarche. The body conserves what resources it has and drops some things not essential to survival. Women with anorexia may stop menstruating completely if they have a bad case,

      Frau Katze

      November 29, 2019 at EST pm

  17. My grand grand father married when he was 13 and his wife was 14, the engagement happened between the families when his wife was 3 years old, according to the stories they were very happily married. Of course it is not like an old guy marrying a young teenager but 100 years ago a woman was viable for marriage once she was sexually mature. So I wouldn’t judge people from such a long time ago by today standards, although marrying a 9 years old is a bit extreme considering she is not sexually mature yet. But it is hard to say when the marriage was actually consumed and we are talking about something that happened 1500 years ago.

    Unlike Judaism which was the first nationalist religion confined to the defined borders of Israel and forbidden expansion beyond it (Israel first!!!), most other religions were imperialist. Christianity abandoned it, at least by sword, but Islam holds the same values even today and that’s the main problem with this religion these days, not some unfortunate marriage arrangement from years ago. Some christians like the Bush family still had this imperialist mindset, trying to bring democracy and western values to the middle east, this was stupid and it is good that Trump is taking the more nationalist way. Unfortunately people tend to ignore the difference between nationalism and imperialism tending to see one as the pretext for other or just confuse the two.

    Hashed

    November 29, 2019 at EST pm

    • ” Some christians like the Bush family still had this imperialist mindset, trying to bring democracy and western values to the middle east,”

      The Bushies weren’t interested in pushing Christianity to the middle east or anywhere else. He was probably embarrassed to bring Christianity to his Methodist church.

      Mike Street Station

      December 1, 2019 at EST am


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