Lion of the Blogosphere

The Bernie Goetz scene in Joker (2019)

There are spoilers.

When I saw the scene, I immediately thought, “Bernie Goetz!” I thought of Bernie Goetz as a hero back then. He gave those punks what they deserved, back at a time when the murder rate in New York City was more than THREE TIMES higher than it is today.

However, there are significant differences between Bernie Goetz and Joker. For starters, the actions of the muggers in the real-world Bernie Goetz incident were less clear. They surrounded him and acted threatening, but they didn’t start beating him up. If Bernie Goetz had refused to hand them any money and pushed them aside, would they have let him go? Possibly. There is no doubt they were bad dudes from the ghetto who were up to no good, but on that particular day they may have just been hoping to see if their scary ghetto demeanor would land them some cash without them having to beat anyone up.

In Joker, there is no doubt that Arthur Fleck was getting the crap beat out of him, and the shooting is more clearly on the side of legitimate self-defense. Except for when he killed the guy who was running away. It’s self defense to shoot someone who’s beating the crap out of you, but it’s not self defense to shoot someone who’s running away.

And then, of course, there’s the issue of the race and social class of the people who Arthur shot. Three drunk white Wall Street types. And that’s where the movie goes more into fantasy. In the real world, three Wall Street types wouldn’t be riding the subway in the first place, but if they were, it’s literally unheard of for three white Wall Street Types to beat the crap out of some mentally ill guy. Because if it had happened, there would have been a huge news story, because it’s a man-bites-dog story. But for the crime that happens all the time, a bunch of black youth beating up a middle-class white person, it’s not deemed worthy of any attention.

Despite the fact that the movie liberalized the incident, and made it tolerable for movie viewing—it would have been totally racist to show a bunch of black youths beating up the white protagonist for no reason, and then the black youths getting what they deserved—nevertheless, extreme SJWs complained about the scene, that it was “racist” because it “whitewashed” the real Bernie Goetz incident.

* * *

White Wall Street types can be assholes, for sure, but their assholeness never manifests in the form of ganging up on a mentally ill person and beating the crap out of him.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

January 18, 2020 at 6:26 PM

Posted in Movies

55 Responses

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  1. ” would have been totally racist” means TOTALLY TRUTHFUL!

    ” the actions of the muggers in the real-world Bernie Goetz incident were less clear.”

    BULL! There is an implied physical threat of four men surrounding one man in an enclosed space and demanding money (aka robbery). Without his gun, Goetz is beaten to a pulp or killed. . .which is what the corrupt leftist law wants! A corrupt govt is always upset when a citizen does what the govt is SUPPOSED TO DO.

    A sane society would’ve given Goetz a medal. But then again a sane society wouldn’t always “youths” to roam around in the first place!

    fakeemail

    January 18, 2020 at 6:45 PM

  2. “SJWs complained about the scene, that it was “racist” because it “whitewashed” the real Bernie Goetz incident.”

    From their warped point of view, Goetz was an example of white supremacist genocide against innocent youfs as opposed to self-defense against the threat of criminals.

    You should hear black folk talk when some black guy holds up a korean grocer at gunpoint and the Korean has the gall to shoot the guy!

    They say, “Aw, he just bored and wanted a few bucks; he wasn’t gon hurt nobody or nothin. ”

    This is their actual viewpoint; they’re not even lying!

    fakeemail

    January 18, 2020 at 6:51 PM

  3. Yeah, admit it already. Riding the filthy of a rat hole underbelly in the city is prole.

    Do you think Michael Bloomberg or the late David Koch would want to pack themselves like sardines among a crowd of NAMs and proles?

    Ok, what, who's this again?

    January 18, 2020 at 7:03 PM

    • Bloomberg was famous for actually riding the subway. Do you really live here?

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 18, 2020 at 8:03 PM

      • Yeah, with bodyguards, outta my way, and give me space, because I’m the mayor.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 18, 2020 at 8:17 PM

      • Btw, the Hudson Valley is one of the best places to visit in Murkaprolestan according to Forbes magazine. I didn’t google or anything. A stumble on the MSN site and it shows me this:

        https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/tripideas/hudson-valley-1-of-forbes-25-best-places-to-visit-in-2020/ar-BBZ5SnV?ocid=hplocalnews

        This bridge which connects Poughkeepsie to the west side of the better part of the Hudson Valley is one of the nicer things about the city. Main St Pough-NAM-keepsie sucks big time, where the White folks are mostly proles who are about to knock on heaven’s door.

        And the ride on the Metro North is more pleasant than the MTA Subways. Both are somewhat dirty when it comes to seating, but significantly pricier fares prevent riff raff from riding to the north of the Bronx.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 18, 2020 at 8:59 PM

  4. A much better subway scene, still kind of ludicrous, is when the prom kids get on the car that some of The Warriors are on. It’s ludicrous because the filmmaker pretended class matters more than ethnicity/race. If you accept that premise, the scene makes sense, it’s even well done and well acted. If you harshly leave movieland and look at real life, both then and now, it’s laughable.

    Back to the River

    January 18, 2020 at 7:49 PM

  5. There is no doubt they were bad dudes from the ghetto who were up to no good…

    …they started making trouble in the neighborhood…

    SlushFundPuppie

    January 19, 2020 at 1:27 AM

  6. “It’s self defense to shoot someone who’s beating the crap out of you, but it’s not self defense to shoot someone who’s running away.”

    Legally, yes, but I’m not sure I completely agree with it. It’s not unusual for someone to lose themselves in a high stress situation. Once the shooting starts one is liable to just keep shooting whether someone is a threat or not. So I might not convict someone for a shot like that. Especially, if it began as a legitimate act of self defense.

    destructure

    January 19, 2020 at 7:11 AM

    • I’m going to be really honest here, but if a group of jerks decided to make an unprovoked attack on me, and if I happen to be armed, I think I would lose sense of reason. Chasing down your attacker with a gun is wrong legally, I understand that, but I would lie if I’d say it’s not satisfying.

      markus

      January 19, 2020 at 2:00 PM

  7. Troubling subway scenes in NYC are still a NAM affair for the most part. 2020 is no different from 1990.

    It’s also quite fascinating that blacks as a group have not kept up with societal trends. Most of the black youths are no different from their estranged parents when it comes to eating patterns, speech, education etc…

    Ok, what, who's this again?

    January 19, 2020 at 9:30 AM

    • One thing I’d like to know is when blacks started using “ain’t” to mean “do not” as well as “am not.” The latter usage is well known. Whites use it all the time, ironically or not. I never heard blacks use the former meaning until this century, as in “I seen Denzel in that, but I ain’t know who the other one is.” When did that start?

      Inquiring Mind Wants to Know about Itch Cures

      January 19, 2020 at 12:22 PM

      • blacks tend to eat a lot of corporate junk food, because it’s cheap, while other groups are less inclined to eat it, if their environs has artisanal, SWPL food.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 19, 2020 at 4:34 PM

  8. Nearly barfed watching that implausible scene. There’s no way three SOBER white guys from Wall Street would act like that, so that’s why the director had them stinking drunk. Also, Latino “youths” stole his sign and beat him up at the beginning of the film. Having black youths harass him and the woman on the subway a few scenes later would have made libs lose their minds. Easier to defame whitey than combat their charges of racism.

    Brendan

    January 19, 2020 at 10:17 AM

    • One of the rules of Hollywood is to NEVER make Blacks look bad, but Latinos are still fair game.

      markus

      January 19, 2020 at 2:07 PM

      • Black social worker: sympathetic
        Black girlfriend: sympathetic
        Black mother & son on the bus: sympathetic
        Black records clerk @ hospital: sympathetic
        Black therapist (who may have been murdered): sympathetic

        Now let’s take a look at the white characters:

        Arthur: psychopath
        Arthur’s boss: asshole
        Guy who gave Arthur the gun: asshole who later got killed
        His mother: a loon
        Bruce Wayne’s dad: asshole who hates the poor. And the guy who killed him was (drum-roll please) white.
        De Niro: asshole TV host
        Two detectives: got their asses kicked by a mob
        Wall Street subway guys: nuff said

        Brendan

        January 19, 2020 at 2:36 PM

      • Yet despite all this, SJWs found reasons to dislike the movie, and it scored a low Rotten Tomatoes score for not checking SJW boxes.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 19, 2020 at 2:57 PM

      • So caving to the SJW magical negro narrative didn’t win the movie any points with SJW reviewers?

        That only makes the artistic decision even gayer and more pathetic. Why throw any bones to dogs that bite no matter what?

        Lowe

        January 19, 2020 at 6:34 PM

      • Black mother on the bus was a super b*tch.

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 19, 2020 at 8:04 PM

      • Indeed she was.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 19, 2020 at 8:12 PM

    • Well why blow a chance at an Oscar for no reason?

      Mike Street Station

      January 20, 2020 at 7:39 AM

  9. Subways are getting worse and worse. Beggars are back in force. Stinky-crazy homeless people seem to be on every train. Fare beating is now essentially allowed, and you constantly see “youths” just jumping turnstiles or going through the “alarmed” doors (which never have working alarms). But dammit, New York City is going to make sure you don’t use straws or plastic bags. THAT will be dealt with harshly.

    peterike

    January 19, 2020 at 1:34 PM

    • Subways are officially prole now. I’m used to riding the Metro North with its pricier fares, which costs me at least $20 round trip to and from a town in Westchester vs a $6 commuting train ride with the subway, that the latter irks me when I step aboard a sheet aluminum box car where I see throngs of annoying strangers among my midst.

      Ok, what, who's this again?

      January 19, 2020 at 4:29 PM

    • I was recently back in NYC after being away for 8 years, and long story short, they appear to be slowly inching back to pre-90s days (I sincerely hope I’m wrong)

      markus

      January 19, 2020 at 11:41 PM

      • The NAM Bronx hasn’t changed at all. It was always pre-Guiliani not sub-coming to the forces of gentrification. Yonkers, which is the lower end of Westchester County is nicer than the Bronx as we know it, despite having a substantial number of blacks. All I can say is that a number of factors are at play. Yonkers has the “Hudson Valley Look” and is close to the city that one finds in Riverdale (the only nice area of the Bronx along with Fordham’s University Campus) and Whites with money are willing to relocate.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 20, 2020 at 10:13 AM

      • Beacon in Dutchess County is one of those Hudson Valley towns by the river on the east side that has a Hipsterville vibe on its Main St. The Main St is quite a stretch that runs about 20 street blocks in Manhattan with all kinds of artisanal foodie places and other Hipster shops. There are about two chain establishments for amenities which is a Rite Aid pharmacy and a Key Food, a mainstream supermarket, among the various local organic and farmer’s markets. This type of arrangement makes sense. Big chain stores provide necessities while local artisan shops provide luxuries.

        Towns with a majority of local artisan shops do not attract blacks and welcome them, while those that have a lot of chain stores are indeed NAM friendly (essentially prole).

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 20, 2020 at 7:23 PM

  10. SJW cry foul if a movie is not OVERTLY IN YOUR FACE LEFT ANTI-WHITE on every point at all times.

    If it is not that, in their warped minds, it is FASCIST!

    Joker was considered alt-right or neutral simply because it wasn’t Left enough. But it was still Left, and it was still a stupid movie.

    fakeemail

    January 19, 2020 at 4:34 PM

  11. Unz has a pretty wild article about NAMs calling the MTA racist towards racial minorities, because riding public transportation is supposed to be free.

    https://www.unz.com/sbpdl/more-than-1000-riot-in-new-york-city-demanding-black-and-brown-never-pay-for-fare-on-public-transportation-again/

    An older article in 2012, before the serious Metro North derailment in Riverdale, hinting that NAMs were whining about how expensive the Metro North is for those who want to take it from Harlem to Midtown Manhattan, instead of the local subway which would take longer by stopping each station along the way. Comments suggest that the wealthy residents of Westchester who take the Metro North consider the NAM Bronx, a land of riff raff, where they’re glad not to encounter them on the local subway.

    https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2012/09/28/a-chance-for-faster-commute-times-in-the-bronx/

    Ok, what, who's this again?

    January 19, 2020 at 6:19 PM

  12. What about the granddaddy of movie scenes in which subway muggers getting their comeuppance?

    Great comment: “I didn’t know New York City muggers look like Bruce Springsteen and Frank Zappa.”

    Oswald Spengler

    January 19, 2020 at 6:25 PM

    • Whenever subway muggers like that slit the paper I’m reading, I just bat the knife hand away, reassemble my paper, and continue reading. Then they just go away. It’s not that hard, babies!

      Irrational Means Insightful

      January 19, 2020 at 11:56 PM

  13. Happy MLK Day everybody!

    Curle

    January 19, 2020 at 9:50 PM

  14. It seems a big problem with the film that the Joker never justifies these killings as self defence when two of the three clearly were just that.

    Tomalak

    January 19, 2020 at 9:52 PM

  15. Great stuff:

    Click to access glubb.pdf

    “ XXII The influx of foreigners
    One of the oft-repeated phenomena of
    great empires is the influx of foreigners to the capital city. Roman historians often complain of the number of Asians and Africans in Rome. Baghdad, in its prime in the ninth century, was international in its population—Persians, Turks, Arabs, Arme- nians, Egyptians, Africans and Greeks mingled in its streets.
    In London today, Cypriots, Greeks, Italians, Russians, Africans, Germans and Indians jostle one another on the buses and in the underground, so that it sometimes seems difficult to find any British. The same applies to New York, perhaps even more so. This problem does not consist in any inferiority of one race as compared with
    another, but simply in the differences between them.
    In the age of the first outburst and the subsequent Age of Conquests, the race is normally ethnically more or less homogeneous. This state of affairs facilitates a feeling of solidarity and comradeship. But in the Ages of Commerce and Affluence, every type of foreigner floods into the great city, the streets of which are reputed to be paved with gold. As, in most cases, this great city is also the capital of the empire, the cosmopolitan crowd at the seat of empire exercises a political influence greatly in excess of its relative numbers.
    Second- or third-generation foreign immigrants may appear outwardly to be entirely assimilated, but they often constitute a weakness in two directions. First, their basic human nature often differs from that of the original imperial stock. If the earlier imperial race was stubborn and slow- moving, the immigrants might come from more emotional races, thereby introducing cracks and schisms into the national policies, even if all were equally loyal.
    Second, while the nation is still affluent, all the diverse races may appear equally loyal. But in an acute emergency, the immigrants will often be less willing to sacrifice their lives and their property than will be the original descendants of the founder race.
    Third, the immigrants are liable to form communities of their own, protecting primarily their own interests, and only in the second degree that of the nation as a whole.
    Fourth, many of the foreign immigrants will probably belong to races originally conquered by and absorbed into the empire. While the empire is enjoying its High Noon of prosperity, all these people are proud and glad to be imperial citizens. But when decline sets in, it is extraordinary how the memory of ancient wars, perhaps centuries before, is suddenly revived, and local or provincial movements appear demanding secession or independence. Some day this phenomenon will doubtless appear in the now apparently monolithic and authoritarian Soviet empire. It is amazing for how long such provincial sentiments can survive.
    Historical examples of this phenomenon are scarcely needed. The idle and captious Roman mob, with its endless appetite for free distributions of food—bread and games—is notorious, and utterly different from that stern Roman spirit which we associate with the wars of the early republic.
    In Baghdad, in the golden days of Harun al-Rashid, Arabs were a minority in the imperial capital. Istanbul, in the great days of Ottoman rule, was peopled by inhabitants remarkably few of whom were descendants of Turkish conquerors. In New York, descendants of the Pilgrim Fathers are few and far between.
    This interesting phenomenon is largely limited to great cities. The original conqu- ering race is often to be found in relative purity in rural districts and on far frontiers. It is the wealth of the great cities which draws the immigrants. As, with the growth of industry, cities nowadays achieve an ever greater preponderance over the countryside, so will the influence of foreigners increa- singly dominate old empires.
    Once more it may be emphasised that I do not wish to convey the impression that immigrants are inferior to older stocks. They are just different, and they thus tend to introduce cracks and divisions.

    Curle

    January 19, 2020 at 11:57 PM

  16. I’ve always remembered the Goetz incident because I took that subway line that day and it made me feel uncomfortable and threatened, which is how he subjectively felt.

    My girlfriend of the time lived in Sheepshead Bay, and so you took the F line to get to Manhattan. Back then, they had recently cleaned up the green line in Manhattan with clean new cars, but the orange cars of the F line were covered with graffiti on every square inch. We decided that day to visit South St. Sea Port in the morning, so we got on the F line and headed north. Somehow, we got onto the 2 line in Brooklyn. At this point, I’m not sure how we managed since the subway map doesn’t seem to suggest any easy connection. My memory has some dim sense of DeKalb, but that doesn’t look right. Anyway, we got onto the 2 line inbound to Manhattan, and I felt very uneasy. I grew up around northern blacks, but the gf didn’t and was pretty obtuse about such things. I got a definite vibe of hostility and potential confrontation. The trip wasn’t too long and soon enough we got to Fulton St. After messing around at the Sea Port for a few hours, we decided to go back. So when we got to the station, I said, “No, we’re not taking the 2 line back to Brooklyn to catch the F line there. I didn’t like the feel on that car this morning. Instead, we’ll take the green line [with the nice clean cars!] up to Bleeker St. and catch the F line there.” And as we were entering the station and passing by where you’d go to catch the 2 line, some people were saying that the line was stopped because of some trouble up the line. As it turned out, that was because Goetz had just shot those punks. I vaguely think this was around 2 pm, but who knows after all this time?

    So, at just around the time Goetz was being harassed on that line, I’d independently decided that it wasn’t safe and wanted to take a different route to avoid the situation. Not saying this speaks directly to what he did and the rightness of his evaluation of the immediate situation, but I’ve at least felt sympathetic to what he went through. Don’t know what I’d do if some punks hit me up for money like that. At any rate, I couldn’t have shot them since I didn’t have a gun (and have never shot one in my life)!

    As for the claim that they were legitimately beginning money off him, my father, who grew up in NYC, said, no, that’s nonsense. If they were actually mooching, they would have asked for a quarter, not five dollars.

    Glad It Wasn't Me

    January 20, 2020 at 4:51 PM

    • In those days I remember the winos used to ask for “change” for “coffee”. I remember the first time I saw one of them panhandle my father. The sheer number of times bums would ask for coins totaling less than a dollar was parodied in the South Park episode: “Night of the Living Homeless”, which came out in 2007, and which depicts bums as zombies in search of “change” instead of “brains”.

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 20, 2020 at 6:14 PM

  17. “It would have been totally racist to show a bunch of black youths beating up the white protagonist for no reason”

    In fairness, how many people get assaulted for no reason whatsoever? Even when blacks do it there’s usually an economic or territorial reason This is a movie and they needed a plot contrivance.

    Curle

    January 20, 2020 at 9:31 PM

    • Tessa Majors, murdered by three black youths.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 20, 2020 at 11:11 PM

      • I gather that encounter started as an economic transaction, illegal probably. Maybe a sexual one.

        Curle

        January 21, 2020 at 7:15 AM

      • While I do believe that the likely reason she went to the park in the first place was to buy drugs (definitely NOT to have sex), but those three black kids were not drug dealers, they were kids looking to mug an easy target, a small skinny white girl.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        January 21, 2020 at 8:15 AM

      • See Lion, they had a good reason. No more complaining.

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        January 22, 2020 at 10:56 AM

  18. What’s laughable is that there are many White Nationalists who actually consider “Joker” a pro-white movie. How is it pro-white when almost all the people who treat him cruelly are white and he fancies the black woman who lives next door?

    • Most White Nationalists are stupid.

      njguy73

      January 21, 2020 at 1:05 PM

    • Because white nationalists understand full and well that any friendly gesture by Hollywood (however rare) will by its nature be coded, concealed and smothered in politically correct claptrap.

      Roli

      January 21, 2020 at 7:25 PM

  19. O/t – Brooklyn’s borough prez. Eric Adams tells gentrifiers from Iowa and Ohio to crawl back where they came from. His message: Stop making NYC expensive where black n brown people are displaced. Stopping being the same White people who refuse to integrate with these people who can’t even integrate with society as 1st world citizens.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/go-back-to-iowa-eric-adams-rails-against-gentrifiers/ar-BBZbzWY?ocid=hplocalnews

    Ok, what, who's this again?

    January 22, 2020 at 8:57 AM

    • It’s outrageous, I meant to blog about it, but busy.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      January 22, 2020 at 10:26 AM

      • The ever rising tide of gentrification might stall in NYC but it is inevitable that blacks are being pushed out en masse in a statewide phenomenon, starting with the Hudson Valley, since many towns along the river are seeing the same forces as the city 30 years ago.

        This burgeoning Hudson Valley gentrification is a good example proving that HBD is indeed real. Whites are the only pioneering race who are willing to adapt to different situations and create an oasis of civilization.

        I see plenty of academic oriented Eastern Asiatics riding the Metro North as college students, and living and forging a pastoral life in the Hudson Valley barely makes a bleep in their minds. I did see an Asian guy with an older woman getting off the Beacon station with a few plastic bags of Asian groceries, presumably a resident of the town, and that’s because Eastern Asiatics aren’t producers of their own living spaces, but merely followers and consumers of White creationism in the West. Beacon is the most developed river town along the Hudson, north of Weschester, which is still in proximity to the city.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        January 22, 2020 at 12:10 PM

    • The real victim here is diversity.

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      January 22, 2020 at 10:57 AM

  20. “The Bernie Goetz scene in Joker”

    I see you caught that too. I told my wife about it while we watching the movie. I do have to admit Joker is a brilliant film and my appreciation for it only grows as I think more about it (the opposite of what happens when I see J. J. Abrams film, for example).

    As for the other angle, note the races of the sign muggers earlier in the film….

    JayMan

    January 25, 2020 at 7:16 AM

    • You brought up an interesting point about JJ Abrams films. I have a similar reaction. I enjoyed his Star Trek movies while watching them on the screen, but by the time I drive home I’ve hated them because all the massive logic gaps, inconsistencies, and things that just make no sense. It’s a tribute to his filmmaking abilities that for a brief moment he can make you forget that, but then you are angry because he’s wrecked a beloved franchise.

      Mike Street Station

      January 26, 2020 at 8:19 AM


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