Lion of the Blogosphere

Law school

A reader asked me about law school.

Bad idea. Unless you can get into a top law school. I’m not sure if the Top 14 is still a thing or not, so to be safe, go for a Top 7 law school.

Also, helps to come from a rich family, even better if your mom or dad is a lawyer, which gives you an in with potential employers. Don’t go to law school in a distant city unless it’s for a Top 7 law school.

An interesting thing about law is that, while everyone else is going to go to a work-from-home arrangement, lawyers need to be near the courts, so you can’t work for a NY law firm while living in Hawaii. This is an unappreciated downside to a career in law.

You’re better off getting an MBA. That Amy Cooper woman, who appears to be off her rocker and a very annoying person, has an MBA from Chicago and consequently she had a pretty good job as a “Vice President” at Franklin Templeton (before she got fired for being a racist).

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

June 17, 2020 at 5:37 PM

Posted in Labor Markets, Law

92 Responses

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  1. The real issue is how do we redefine status if cities like Manhattan are no longer providing an impetus for status signaling? Many non-essential workers will be working remotely.

    Ok, what, who's this again?

    June 17, 2020 at 5:48 PM

  2. Thanks for the advice. What is the minimum rank needed for an MBA program to be worth it?

    Lowe

    June 17, 2020 at 5:49 PM

    • Per my comment below, because MBA school comes after you’ve been working a few years, an MBA is really something where you have a very specific goal you intend to get out of it. Its value is proportional to where you’re coming from, where it can realistically take you, and how badly you want to make that transition. For certain sorts of transitions, a 50-ranked sort of program is probably still worth it. Especially if you intend to stay in that local area (e.g., per Forbes, U. of Alabama is 50-ranked. If you intend to stay in Alabama, or possibly a bordering state, that degree is worth a lot more than if you plan to move there from NYC and then return to NYC).

      Wency

      June 18, 2020 at 11:03 AM

    • It could be very low, depending on why you need an MBA. In a lot of jobs, primarily but not exclusively in the public sector, a postgrad degree is required for promotion above a certain level, but nobody cares where you got it. Also, in some jobs you automatically get paid more for having a masters degree, even if it’s irrelevant to your job. In both cases, a cheap MBA from an obscure online “university” is more than sufficient.

      TWBC

      June 19, 2020 at 1:07 PM

  3. Even better get healthcare degree and have job security e.g. physician assistant, nurse practitioner, physical therapist, occupational therapist. I switched from software to nursing and never have to worry about being fired because of age discrimination.

    Bryan Bell (@bjwbell)

    June 17, 2020 at 6:09 PM

  4. Yeah I made that mistake. It is tempting for lib arts majors trying to put off work or escape a hellish job. Resist!

    Wish now I’d done accounting. Almost switched… But once you get on that law school train, it’s really hard to get off. They get all starry eyed and there’s no talking them out of it. 1L feels like a priesthood. Family is so impressed! Lol.

    Mrs Stitch

    June 17, 2020 at 6:31 PM

  5. Obviously Harvard, Yale and Stanford are in the Top 7, what are the other four?

    Also, on a completely unrelated note, have you heard much about these online coding academies? As I understand it they finance your education, but you don’t have to pay the loans back unless you’re working in the field making over a specified amount of money, in other words the downside risk is all on the schools.

    Peter

    ironrailsironweights

    June 17, 2020 at 6:34 PM

    • HYSCCN are the usual top six law schools.

      Harvard, Yale, Stanford

      Columbia, Chicago, New York University.

      Oswald Spengler

      June 17, 2020 at 10:26 PM

      • UVA, maybe?

        ScarletNumber

        June 19, 2020 at 11:41 PM

  6. An MBA is mostly and increasingly optional. Also, much like what you say about law, it’s really not worthwhile to go to lesser MBA schools, unless you made a poor initial decision and are targeting a career change. Big beneficiaries of career changes include engineers, military officers, and schoolteachers. You probably won’t go down the path Amy Cooper did; more likely you’ll end up in Sales or HR or something at a megacorp.

    I don’t know the law nearly as well as business, but in most of flyover country, it’s not like many lawyers went to top 7 schools. Usually the successful ones went to the top public law school in their state or a bordering state. A huge positive of law and medicine is that there’s always demand for these professions in both small towns and big cities; business careers will generally steer you towards working downtown in a big city, which is fun when you’re 22, but sucks as you get older unless you’re a phenomenal success. I was able to migrate to a small town despite a finance career, but I had to make a lot of sacrifices and start my own company to do it.

    Really, the best career advice is to start off on a good track. From what I have seen, investment banking is still the best way to start off a corporate/business career. From a start in IB, you can go on to any sort of business career you might later desire. Being a post-MBA investment banker has taken a big hit from its glory days, but going into IB right out of undergrad has not, from everything I’ve seen.

    If you want to make a career purely as an engineer or other STEM type, I think it really helps to be entrepreneurial. Working a corporate career as an engineer sucks after the first few years. So if you’re not entrepreneurial and you want to advance up the corporate ladder, you end up going to MBA school, but your career is way behind equivalently intelligent people who started out in IB.

    Wency

    June 17, 2020 at 6:42 PM

    • Law schools are either national (top 14 according to US News), regional/statewide (most of the top 50, but also some NYC-DC schools and West schools outside of the top 50), and local/metro (most of the schools outside of the top 50). In other words, top 14 graduates can find jobs nationally, regional school graduates will find jobs in their state or maybe adjacent state, local school grads will find jobs in their metro region or maybe adjacent metro regions. I know plenty of lawyers in smaller towns who went to local schools–in fact, most of them went to local schools–and they are doing OK with salaries in the $70,000-$90,000 range with maybe $20,000 to $30,000 of debt from law school. I’m going to a fairly highly ranked regional school where most grads find employment within 5 months or so and get jobs straight out of school around $80,000.I find that the most successful people are hyper-motivated to do well in law–they have good grades, and do law review or moot court, but a lot of them often times family or friend connections. I think this is mostly obvious, but law school can be a good investment if you have these things going for you.

      GondwanaMan

      June 19, 2020 at 11:58 AM

  7. Lion, there are plenty of law graduates, outside the top 14, who are getting decent jobs. The son of a friend of mine just graduated Fordham and he got a job at one of the New York firms. They told him that they will groom him for M&A work. Will he make partner? At that point, what school he went to will be meaningless. There are plenty of partners at top New York firms who went to Guido schools like New York Law school, Seton Hall and St. Johns.

    Daniel H

    June 17, 2020 at 7:43 PM

    • Yep. I have three male cousins who went to Rutgers Law and they all have healthy careers in corporate law. Needless to say, there are more plum jobs than there are Ivy League graduates. Someone has to fill them, even “proles” from state schools.

      Brendan

      June 17, 2020 at 11:19 PM

      • The number of law school graduates who have passed the bar exam vastly exceed the number of plum jobs.

      • >> The number of law school graduates who have passed the bar exam vastly exceed the number of plum jobs.

        This is true. The real matter, though, is that one should not go into law if one doesn’t have that aggressive, lawyerly mindset. Even a smart one from the best laws school is going to flounder if he/she is not aggressive and able to push for his/her interests. Lawyers from the lesser schools succeed and make partner because they are smart enough and they have the personality.

        I agree with you that lawyering is a bleak business. You wanna know what’s worse than lawyering, though? Ubering, or working as an assistant manager at a McDonalds, or telemarketing, or call center help desk, or stock-brokering, or stocking shelves at Walmart, or thousands of other prole occupations.

        Daniel H

        June 18, 2020 at 1:22 PM

      • “I agree with you that lawyering is a bleak business. You wanna know what’s worse than lawyering, though? Ubering, or working as an assistant manager at a McDonalds, or telemarketing, or call center help desk, or stock-brokering, or stocking shelves at Walmart, or thousands of other prole occupations.”

        That’s worth quoting.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 18, 2020 at 2:01 PM

      • Personality here just means being loud and obnoxious and taking something from someone more deserving because you’re a loud bully.

        The laws of the jungle are what they are, but let’s call it what it is.

        Coronavirus Infected Packing Tape

        June 18, 2020 at 4:51 PM

      • It’s a very narrow dichotomy, there are many trades which pay a decent money especially if you own your small business if you are not inclined to sit in an office, just ask Yakov. There are also many other white collar jobs which can sustain someone respectfully even without an ivy league degree. There is a whole wold outside Manhattan.

        Hashed

        June 18, 2020 at 6:16 PM

      • I have some old friends who went to NYU and Northwestern. They are currently doing phenomenally well and have been practicing law for 20 years.

        Career tracking is the key. You prepare for these careers from an early age.

        map

        June 19, 2020 at 2:38 AM

      • Lower-tier schools in the DC and NY area, and even some in Southern California and SF areas, place well with mid-sized firms and the graduates find cushy jobs. Sometimes it comes down moreso to individual motivation and networking than anything else. Plenty of people from my regional law school are finding good jobs, sometimes even Big Law ones. I think only graduates at Toilet Tier garbage schools where a significant amount of the population fails to graduate, leaves school, or fails to pass the bar are at a huge disadvantage. Otherwise it comes down moreso to individual skill and networking than anything else.

        GondwanaMan

        June 19, 2020 at 12:03 PM

      • An important note is that lawyering isn’t NAM friendly. Many of these prole occupations including grocery handling are deemed “essential” during this pandemic and in NYC, they are taken up mostly by NAMs.

        Working at a Whole Foods outside of NYC garners a lot of status not afforded to someone who works in the same brand store in Manhattan and whose co-workers tend to be the protected minority class, who are likely to pack a lot of pounds not in line with the organic eating culture.

        In fact, from a psychological perspective, living in NYC as an urban striver sucks, if one isn’t working in a field of status and is untouchable by NAMs. Prole occupations aren’t as much as a stigma outside the city centers of power, influence and wealth.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        June 20, 2020 at 9:42 AM

      • @Hashed: here are many trades which pay a decent money

        The father of two teenage friends got the boys into a northeast Sheetmetal Workers Union immediately after high school. They were making $100K (including overtime) by their mid-20s (during the late ’80s), and retired after 30 years at 48 y/o w/ lifetime health care and $60K pensions. Three weeks annual vacation plus another three to four weeks on unemployment each year when work slowed down. They now do custom sheetmetal fabrication out of their garages making $100K or as much as they want every year.

        The father offered me the same opportunity buy I turned it down to go to college and study Computer Science.

        E. Rekshun

        June 21, 2020 at 8:58 AM

    • I love LOTB. It’s the only place where a law school could be called “guido!”

      Maryk (the g-loaded guidette)

      June 18, 2020 at 12:34 AM

      • Please read my previous post on Guido Law: https://lionoftheblogosphere.wordpress.com/2014/03/10/guido-law/

      • The latest tabloid news in NYS guido law practice involves an ambulance chaser with the surname and atypical name of Ross instead of Tony or Sal.

        https://nypost.com/2020/06/16/cellino-barnes-to-open-separate-firms-within-months/

        Now, don’t look down on ambulance chasers. Some of them are quite wealthy from multi-million dollar lawsuits of injured and let’s sue.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        June 18, 2020 at 10:42 AM

      • I guess we disagree on what qualifies as a “plum” job. Two of my aforementioned cousins work for Guinness and Aetna respectively and live in big homes in Northern NJ. Not bad for Rutgers grads.

        Brendan

        June 18, 2020 at 12:41 PM

      • I am reminded of the law firm that defended Sherman McCoy in Tom Wolfe’s “Bonfire of the Vanities”: Dershkin, Bellavita, Fischbein & Schlossel.

        370H55V

        June 18, 2020 at 9:56 PM

      • Plenty of work for ambulance chasers (and other Guido Prole Lawyers ) going forward. It seems like Guido Law is setting up a marketplace for lawsuits, all because of the Covid-19 pandemic and its after effects like divorce and domestic battery. Gotta love the class action lawsuits setup by these sue and screw attorneys who are trying to get billions from the Eastern Asiatic Communists for the Wuhan flu.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        June 20, 2020 at 9:51 AM

  8. The college bubble will burst soon anyway given rising tuition costs and more and more millennials unable to pay back the loans. Once people are unable to get into college easily as they used to, employers will suddenly find the value of a Coursera certificate or Udacity nanodegree.

    Red pill aspie

    June 17, 2020 at 9:24 PM

    • if 50% of millennials never pay it all back, but the other 50% pay three times what they should have, money lenders don’t care. My car insurance works that way. If half the drivers in my state are uninsured illegals, they just double my rates. Problem solved.

      I don’t see money breaking the system. What does Lion have to pay to get a one bedroom apartment in Manhattan vs. a guy living in Boise? That’s the future of college costs. You want a ticket to the big time kid?, it’s going to cost you for the rest of your life.

      Think those high costs will keep the poor out? Did that happen in Manhattan? Nope. Some people are getting public housing, and that’s just one more thing driving up the costs for everyone not getting it.

      Welcome to the future.

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      June 18, 2020 at 10:18 AM

      • Correct, there are new public/affordable housing being built in Manhattan as we speak.

        Now, with this pandemic and the collapse as many as 50% of restaurants, urban centers are at a crossroads of redefining status and their demographics.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        June 21, 2020 at 12:15 PM

    • Those rankings haven’t changes in 30 years.

      map

      June 19, 2020 at 2:41 AM

  9. The strangest detail of the Ms. Cooper story is, according to someone in her building, she would only talk to neighbors ‘through her dog’ in a cutsie baby voice.

    Some hopelessly weird people are also highly intelligent so perhaps that was how she landed the position. It certainly wasn’t due to her looks.

    toomanymice

    June 18, 2020 at 9:59 AM

    • Now that she’s out of work, she can get a job as a ventriloquist.

      Anthony

      June 18, 2020 at 2:59 PM

  10. I have recently met several individuals who attended top tier law schools just as a resume enhancement for the policy job and did not ever bother to take the bar exam. I thought that was a very expensive resume move.

    superdestroyer

    June 18, 2020 at 10:01 AM

    • They are obviously people with rich parents.

    • Supper common amongst the children of wealthy politicians.

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      June 18, 2020 at 10:28 AM

    • “ attended top tier law schools just as a resume enhancement for the policy job”

      Top tier aside, legislative staffers at some state legislatures are overwhelmingly lawyers from decent schools. I noticed that phenomenon in DC in the ‘80s. Try competing without one.

      Curle

      June 21, 2020 at 4:09 PM

      • But is the $150k cost really beneficial for the resume in addition to the loss of three years. Or is this just tiger mom logic extended into adulthood?

        superdestroyer

        June 22, 2020 at 7:41 AM

  11. Look at the scatter plot here,

    It seems like the people choosing to run up around $200K in student debt to attend one of those crappy law schools in the lower-right needed their own legal guardians to prevent them from doing harm to themselves.
    And they hope to have a career giving advice to other people???

    Calvin Hobbes

    June 18, 2020 at 10:04 AM

    • That chart clearly shows that there are 8 top schools. (There appear to be only 7, but Yale is missing from the list). I wasn’t aware that Northwestern was a Top 8 school.

      • Jerry Springer went to Northwestern. I always thought he had an extremely high IQ (no joke)

        pumpkinperson

        June 19, 2020 at 10:35 AM

    • WA U in St. Louis, an institution I had never heard of, seems to do very well according to this chart, with an above-average salary and a low debt level.

      Peter

      ironrailsironweights

      June 18, 2020 at 1:45 PM

      • Washington University in Saint Louis is a well known top-level (but not quite Ivy) school.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 18, 2020 at 2:02 PM

      • Indeed, I believe it’s the best school in the Midwest outside Northwestern and U. Chicago. Really I would put all these schools in basically the same academic category, along with maybe Notre Dame (though ND belongs on the bottom of the group, and UC on the top).

        They also belong in basically the same category as the lower-tier Ivies, at least academically. A low-tier Ivy degree probably counts for more in the NE corridor, though in the South or Midwest it’s probably about comparable to these schools. You’ll still run into people in these regions who think Wash. U is a public school in Washington state, but you’ll probably run into just as many who think U. Penn is a public school and about as good as Penn State.

        Wency

        June 22, 2020 at 10:54 AM

    • According to this I can see that there are about 20 places you can go to to get a decent salary provided you are not living in the most expensive part of the country and I am sure this salary goes up after some years of experience. Let’s say you go to Austin and stay in Texas to practice. Texas is cheap and if you start with 80k you can already sustain a family there with this kind of money, certainly after couple of years when your salary goes up.

      Hashed

      June 18, 2020 at 6:22 PM

    • wow

      MoreSigmasThanYou

      June 20, 2020 at 9:21 PM

  12. A bachelor’s degree in computer science or actuarial science from a low tier school is still good. A PA program at a bottom tier school is great. Don’t get an MBA from a low tier school unless you’re already working in management. Obviously the higher the tier of school the better, except for non-MD track medical stuff.

    Lion’s alma mater is the only Ivy to offer a nursing degree. I don’t think a nursing degree from an Ivy conveys any advantage vs any other school. Funny thing about that.

    MoreSigmasThanYou

    June 18, 2020 at 10:09 AM

    • They also have an education school. Benjamin Franklin’s legacy of championing practical education.

      • Do those graduates stand a better chance of being at the forefront of destroying children’s minds?? A lot of crazy ideas that become vogue come from specific cliques of people at specific schools. I have no idea where UPenn falls on a spectrum of political correctness, and of course the map changes quickly but I’d like to see tracking of what schools are doing which things.

        I figure it’s generally the more elite schools leading the less elite ones. UCB and Yale seem to be hotbeds. UChicago seems to be immune.

        These days the insanity from universities has hit *most* high schools, so almost no pre-college gen-Z public school students can avoid a dose of anti-white studies. I’ve noticed that boomers can’t learn what’s happening, and while Gen-Xers are teachable, most have no idea the extent things have gone to.

        I only know because I’m in FaceBook groups where nearly everyone is Gen-Z, and because I have a relative in high school and I’ve seen the halls plastered with propaganda (which I’ve come to learn is in every school now).

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        June 18, 2020 at 10:27 AM

      • Penn is the most complete Ivy: med school, law school, business school, humanities, vet school, dental school and a bunch of other stuff like education, social work, communications. What else? Not other offers as much.

        Daniel H

        June 18, 2020 at 1:30 PM

      • Lion, do you think that Ben Franklin will be cancelled, have his statues torn down like Washington, Jefferson and Lee? And if not, why not? Like the others Franklin owned slaves.

        Daniel H

        June 18, 2020 at 6:07 PM

      • Ben Franklin never mentioned owning slaves in his autobiography. And he lived in Philadelphia, which was not in a slave state.

      • >>Ben Franklin never mentioned owning slaves in his autobiography. And he lived in Philadelphia, which was not in a slave state.

        You evaded the question. Ben Franklin owned slaves, this is an established fact. Ulysses S. Grant owned a slave. Are they going to knock down Grant’s tomb in Riverside park? Good luck with that.

        As per Ben Franklin’s autobiography, he also thought that Native Americans were hopeless drunks and that Quakers were bullsh*tters. Ben Franklin didn’t like Quakers.

        Daniel H

        June 20, 2020 at 1:37 AM

      • “Like the others Franklin owned slaves.”

        I don’t think that is true at all. Or let me put it this way, I would be surprised if it turns out to be true. However I’m sure if you go through Franklin’s writings, there’s plenty to cancel him by 2020 standards. In an age when we’re looking at Washington DC being renamed Martin Luther King City in the District of Black Lives Matter, Franklin is I’m sure on his way to becoming unhistory.

        Mike Street Station

        June 20, 2020 at 7:46 AM

      • “Philadelphia, which was not in a slave state.“

        Pennsylvania was a slave owning colony. As many as 30k slaves as of 1766. You likely mean at the time of the Civil War?

        Curle

        June 21, 2020 at 3:47 PM

    • Similar to another lower tier Ivy, Cornell offers all kinds of “vocational” degrees based on the founder’s principle, whose roots was agrarian. Indeed, the university has a nursing school in NYC.

      This is another essence of proledom in LoftB terms!

      Ok, what, who's this again?

      June 18, 2020 at 10:24 AM

      • They are hoooge moneymakers. NYU has nursing and education.
        Lion should have leveraged his prestigious undergrad degree for a better law school. But I think he’s made that point many times before.

        uman

        June 18, 2020 at 1:14 PM

      • Cornell is actually New York’s land grant university for agricultural purposes. State residents at its College of Agriculture pay tuition at SUNY levels.

        Peter

        ironrailsironweights

        June 18, 2020 at 1:47 PM

      • Lion overstates slightly the importance of law school prestige, methinks….

        GondwanaMan

        June 19, 2020 at 12:05 PM

      • Cornell’s agriculture department bred a bunch of great plants. And Cornell’s physics department scored a bunch of great physicists. What if non-HYP schools spend decades scoring more achievements than HYP. Will the ‘serious’ schools overtake the dilettante schools in the rankings?

        MoreSigmasThanYou

        June 20, 2020 at 9:29 PM

    • Insurance companies don’t give a damn about your degree or GPA. If you pass the actuarial exams (very challenging exams) you are going to get a job. Period.

      Daniel H

      June 18, 2020 at 1:28 PM

      • If that’s true, those exams are about to be determined to be Systemically Racist because of their Disparate Impact. No doubt that’s an EEOC case waiting to happen, and those companies need to be forced to hire Chief Diversity Officers and institute multi-thousand-employee HR departments staffed with AWFLs to make sure those positions are crammed full of unqualified and incompetent NAMs.

        Hermes

        June 18, 2020 at 2:48 PM

    • That is undergraduate nursing degree. Several of the Ivy leagues have graduate programs in nursing.

      Nursing is like most of medicine where a new graduate will not get paid more just because they went to Penn. However, a Penn graduate will probably be on the track to higher management that a nursing graduate from Temple could never do.

      superdestroyer

      June 18, 2020 at 4:11 PM

    • Cousin’s daughter has a nursing degree from Brown.

      Hallie Scott Kline

      June 19, 2020 at 4:03 AM

      • Then it is a graduate degree. If you look at Brown University undergraduate programs, nursing is not listed.

        To move up in management or be come a nurse anesthetist, a nurse practitioner, or a research nurse (run a department of clinical investigation), then a nurse has to have a graduate degree.

        superdestroyer

        June 20, 2020 at 4:17 PM

  13. The best career decision I ever made was dropping out of the evening program at New England School of Law after one year. The second best career decision was getting a B.S. Computer Science from a reputable Boston-area university. The third best career decision was getting an MBA from a top 30 program. Unfortunately, more than a few sub-optimal career decisions followed and my career and salary growth stalled out at about 40 y/o.

    E. Rekshun

    June 18, 2020 at 12:09 PM

    • my career and salary growth stalled out at about 40 y/o.

      That’s fine; that’s when any reasonable person should be eyeing semi-retirement with a view to spending more time with the now-growing kids anyway.

      N.B. – I do not consider the vast majority of today’s career strivers to be reasonable.

      S.J., Esquire

      June 19, 2020 at 10:54 AM

      • Early retirement isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. I retired the first time at 36. And, yes, I know how obnoxious that sounds. It’s also kind of embarrassing because everyone is wondering why you’re not working. So you’re caught between looking obnoxious or looking like a bum. Not that I really care what people think. But it kind of does cause problems.

        destructure

        June 21, 2020 at 12:44 PM

      • I know how obnoxious that sounds

        I don’t think it sounds obnoxious at all! And I believe the rest of your comment, but it only underscores how badly off-course most people are, to think that not wanting to slave anymore is somehow a low-key scandal. I think the pandemic and associated enforced non-work (and people seeing how great it can be) has helped with this.

        S.J., Esquire

        June 22, 2020 at 8:31 AM

  14. If you are good at Math and Statistics consider getting into an FP&A role at a large corporation. In my experience companies have trouble recruiting talented people for those positions and a lot of the jobs are where the companies are. You may end up in Ohio or Utah, but you will get paid well, you can marry an attractive woman from the marketing department, and of you do well you may get on a CFO path or join a top notch consulting firm.

    Peter Akuleyev

    June 18, 2020 at 1:28 PM

  15. A few years ago there were numerous blogs (generally known as “scamblogs”) that discussed The Law School Scam: the shrinking job market for lawyers and law school graduates, the deceptive marketing by many non-elite law schools and finally, efforts at reform of law school education and the legal marketplace. Most of the scam blogs have shuttered, although their archived posts remain. I believe one scamblog is still active — Outside the Law School Scam.

    Several message boards also featured discussions of The Law School Scam, most notably a board called JD Underground. However, most (if not all) of them have ended. Jd Underground’s admin pulled the plug on JDU without warning or explanation a few years ago and no successor board has taken its place.

    There were also several law school professors who wrote books on The Law School Scam. Brian Z. Tamanaha wrote Failing Law Schools. Stephen Harper wrote The Law School Bubble, and finally, Paul Campos wrote Don’t Go to Law School (Unless). Campos also had a blog called Inside the Law School Scam. However, he ended the blog several years ago.

    Oswald Spengler

    June 18, 2020 at 1:55 PM

    • I wonder what happened? Did the legal market massively improve during the last ten years?

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 18, 2020 at 2:03 PM

      • I dont believe there has been a massive improvement in the legal job market. I am still an attorney myself, albeit I work as a contract attorney doing document review for various clients and can work from home. Thus, I am one of those attorneys who doesn’t have live in a high-cost megalopolis like NYC, LA, or Chicago. Fortunately, I live in a small town with low cost of living, my debt load is manageable, and I am reasonably frugal.

        I believe that as the non-legal job market improved (at least until the recent crisis) many JDs and law grads from lower ranked schools simply left the legal profession and many scambloggers were among them. People get tired of quioxitcally pursuing a crusade after a while. That is not to say that the critics of the law scam didn’t have any positive effect. Law schools now are much more transparent about about their grads’ job prospects than they were just a decade ago. There have been several closures of low ranked law schools and several have merged or consolidated with other schools. However, overall there are still far top many law schools in the United States that produce far too many graduates for the legal job market to employ. Until the legal profession has a sea change like the medical profession underwent with the Flexner Report over a century ago, there won’t be meaningful improvement in prospects for many graduates of non elite law schools.

        Oswald Spengler

        June 18, 2020 at 3:50 PM

      • The overall job market improved to the point where the people who quickly failed at law were able to find decent-paying alternative employment.

        Justice Duvall

        June 18, 2020 at 5:09 PM

      • For the past 3 years or so (since Trump became President more or less), recent law grads have had an incredibly easy time getting well paid law jobs. (At least if they graduated from a T1 or T2 law school.) Before the Chinese Coronavirus hit, my company would constantly try to hire recent Tier 2 law grads, only to lose out to other companies and firms who outbid us or whose HR moved faster. Its been surreal to those of us who came of age during the dark times of the jobless Obama Era.

        Anonymous Bro

        June 18, 2020 at 9:36 PM

      • Economy improved for a long stretch, number of law school grads crashed, consequently the job situation became much less dire starting in about 2015 or 2016. Not suggesting anyone feels too optimistic for this year’s graduating class or that I would recommend law as a career to a young person.

        McFly

        June 18, 2020 at 10:53 PM

      • The legal market is indeed improving. Look at my school, UF Law. We have placed plenty of people into Big Law like Skadden and the like in the past few years. We rarely did that before 2015. However, we’ve also massively improved in the rankings so that may have helped.

        GondwanaMan

        June 19, 2020 at 12:07 PM

      • Here’s an interview that Paul Campos did a few months ago. I linked to the relevant section. The big change he emphasizes is that law school tuition has become totally negotiable in a way that it wasn’t a few years ago. Apparently a lot of people get big discounts, and how much you pay is largely a function of your LSAT score and the rank of the school.

        Yodec

        June 19, 2020 at 6:55 PM

      • Blogging is passe.

        ScarletNumber

        June 20, 2020 at 12:02 AM

    • I used to read jdunderground every day. It was pretty dark stuff in 2009. Made me glad I had an in-house job.

      Mrs Stitch

      June 19, 2020 at 10:24 PM

  16. Regarding MBA’s:

    Are you under 29 and want to work in finance or consulting at a top company AND can get into a top MBA program? Go ahead. Do it even if the program is full time.

    Are you less than 35 and want an MBA but cannot get into a top school? it can be worth it under the following circumstances: You do it part-time and the program costs no more than $30,000 and it is from an AACSB school. If it is more than $30,000 from a non-top AACSB school only do it if your employer will pay for it and only then if you do it part-time. Also it should be located in the region your want to work. It can give you a leg up for general management roles.

    Return of Shawn

    June 18, 2020 at 8:46 PM

    • Good points. In my early 30s, in the late ’90s after a job layoff I decided to use the situation to get an MBA full-time as a way to springboard out of code-monkey business. I scored a 720 GMAT and, while I did not get in to Stanford, got a half-tuition scholarship to a reputable top state university; and an $85K job offer upon completion in a low cost of living mid-size city. My MBA cost me about $5K in tuition.

      As mentioned above, due to a couple of blown opportunities and sub-optimal career decisions, my salary today is exactly what it was when I finished the MBA over 20 years ago. But the MBA did allow me to exit coding and do more interesting (and easier) work.

      E. Rekshun

      June 20, 2020 at 12:12 PM

  17. OT: Leon just won my vote with his tweet about sardines.

    Sardines are packed with good things while having the least mercury.
    https://www.livestrong.com/article/550938-health-risks-of-eating-sardines/

    destructure

    June 19, 2020 at 10:24 AM

  18. Regarding the City of Syracuse which is just slight north of the Finger Lakes region, known as a popular getaway for smart NYCers:

    Such a charming photo of a city and then you look up the demographics for the city and it’s ~ 30% black.

    Ok, what, who's this again?

    June 21, 2020 at 1:44 PM

    • The surrounding countryside is very nice. Just avoid the inner city itself.

      • blacks like urban pesky critters aren’t adept to living in the remote sticks for a number of reasons. Go to the Hudson Valley and they are mostly found in areas in proximity to a Main St. and the same goes for any place in Upstate NY proper. Hispanics are a mixed bag though.

        I’ve yet to see a black person engaged in any farming operation like I do with Hispanics. If you go to a farmer’s market in NYC, there are growers with Hispanic workers sprinkled with a few traces of Eastern Asiatics (mostly Tibetans), but there are no blacks. Neither an owner nor a worker. Given that farming is a sector that provides opportunity for those unsuited for white collar work, blacks could take up this trade, but like everything else, their livelihood is pretty much subsidized by others.

        Ok, what, who's this again?

        June 22, 2020 at 9:56 AM

  19. Theodore Roosevelt statue to be removed from museum of natural history

    Lion told us to visit the Museum before it fell under the ax. He needs to re-post that blog entry.

    MoreSigmasThanYou

    June 21, 2020 at 6:46 PM

  20. Typical caption for a woman’s photo submission on the Normal Nudes subreddit: “My body is SO ugly, no man would EVER want me!” [completely untrue]
    Followed by 100 comments all saying some variation on “You’re so hott, I want to do you!”

    Typical caption for a man’s photo submission on the Normal Nudes subreddit: “Lazy day, just hanging around the house – hey, wanna see my d*ck?”
    Followed by zero comments.

    Peter

    ironrailsironweights

    June 21, 2020 at 8:46 PM


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