The vanishing male worker
In the NY Times article that commenter “uatu” provided the link for, this quote is interesting:
Many men, in particular, have decided that low-wage work will not improve their lives, in part because deep changes in American society have made it easier for them to live without working. These changes include the availability of federal disability benefits; the decline of marriage, which means fewer men provide for children; and the rise of the Internet, which has reduced the isolation of unemployment.
Indeed, it makes perfect sense to avoid a crappy low-wage dead-end job if you don’t need the money to get by.
And it’s interesting, indeed, that the NY Times mentioned lack of children as making it possible to live on a lower income, and also that better low-cost entertainment options like the internet make the non-working life more attractive.
Lion of the Blogosphere 
The arrow of causation needs to be spelled out a bit If jobs led to women + children, men would do them instead of living off parents or government.
One thing that’s not mentioned is the success and savings of previous generations combined with a culture of indulgence lets a lot of people just live off their parents indefinitely.
Hepp
December 16, 2014 at 1:50 PM
If your working, living off your parents isn’t so bad, because you can save an enormous amount of money from not having to pay those nosebleed rent prices, and you an take your wages and put it into an index fund instead of the landlord.
grey enlightenment
December 16, 2014 at 2:01 PM
I remember having no luck with girls until I moved out of my parents house. Part of it was knowing that I had no place to take them. Part of it I think was more subtle psychologically. I didn’t feel like an adult out on my own, and didn’t have the confidence I did when I moved out.
People need the pride of feeling like grownups. It’s the Northern European way.
Hepp
December 16, 2014 at 3:23 PM
I moved back home after undergrad for six months while working a good-paying software development job and saved a lot of money that I just put into growth mutual funds. I didn’t really know anything about investing back then and just selected funds that were popular at that time – Fidelity Contrafund, Gabelli Growth Fund, and the Janus Fund. Those six months of saving gave me a very nice base from which to ride the growth in those funds throughout the ’90s.
However, it was weird to bring dates back to my Mom’s house for some canoodling on the couch and in my childhood bedroom when Mom was away. On one particular occasion, a very attractive blonde, on Christmas break from her studies at Colorado State, subtly ridiculed me after we had sex in that bedroom for not having my own place. It wasn’t enough to make her want to stop having sex with me, but soon enough I found out she was addicted to cocaine and, rather than return to CSU, her well-off parents shipped her off to rehab and I never saw her again. Her father was a professor at MIT. Cocaine was a bitch in 1986.
E. Rekshun
December 16, 2014 at 5:43 PM
Well a cocaine addict doesn’t sound like a good long-term partner anyway.
Lion of the Blogosphere
December 16, 2014 at 9:42 PM
It’s amazing how the Anglosphere is completely dysfunctional, overly hedonistic and degenerate. In Spain and Italy, guys live with their parents and are still able to land women, and are expected to move out when they get married. Further, their families get to own homes in the countryside, in addition to their apartments in the city environs. No need to go to the most expensive Italian restaurant like here in the states, when mama can whip up a good Italian meal for you.
JS
December 16, 2014 at 6:17 PM
The idea that young unmarried men should live in their own place was unique to post WWII America, and is probably becoming a thing of the past thanks to the new new economy.
Lion of the Blogosphere
December 16, 2014 at 9:44 PM
“No need to go to the most expensive Italian restaurant like here in the states, when mama can whip up a good Italian meal for you.”
Well, I guess there is at least ONE advantage in being a guido! In truth though, a really good home cooked Italian meal takes several hours – it can’t be “whipped up” in the same way that Kraft macaroni and cheese can. But I get your point. Restaurants are an overrated hobby anyway. Once I gave up the restaurant habit (and I never went daily anyway) I started saving a lot of money. Now it has to be something really special for me to go to a restaurant. They’ve got to offer really unique entrees. Maybe an LOTB Café with the following offerings – the SWPL special (it contains pate’) , the omega omelette (even total losers have to eat, right”), the “beta burger” (for the middle America NASCAR set – and with artificial coloring to make it more “vibrant”),, bobo-nana cream pie (for both children and New York Times columnists), and instead of a “Shirley Temple,” the non-alcoholic drink “Catherine Rampell on the rocks” which is of course designed to make guys imagine Cahterine Rampell on THEIR rocks!
Maryk
December 16, 2014 at 10:23 PM
You left out the Alpha Arugula to go with the Beta Burger or Omega Omelette. And Arugula is Italian.
JS
December 17, 2014 at 10:47 AM
Any ideas for a Lion of the Blogosphere, when ordering a drink from the bartender?
Getting stoned so you can start a fight with a prole and/or SWPL at the watering hole!
JS
December 17, 2014 at 10:54 AM
True, but another point – when i was long term unemployed – I pared back a shitload of frivolous stuff I used to blow money on – so indulgence is a relative term.
uatu
December 16, 2014 at 3:03 PM
Yes, having a 50-100K normal job does NOT lead to women, marriage, or kids. It just makes you another boring beta.
In fact, if you’re play it right, unemployment may be better course towards spawning lots of bastards.
fakeemail
December 16, 2014 at 3:13 PM
Tell that to Yakov, who encourage guys to get a trade. It’s worse, if you want to be popular among females. But I’ll say this, Hispanic women would be impress with blue collar guys more than other types of women, including the Italian Guidettes.
JS
December 17, 2014 at 10:32 AM
Honestly, I don’t know why the men on this site keep saying that guys who earn 50-100K can’t get women. Most women don’t even attempt to seek out men who earn more than this because there aren’t so many of those guys. And then, of course, wealthier guys have more options to choose from so you have more competition. A large number of women are marrying DOWN the economic ladder. A woman who makes between 35-65K a year doesn’t normally rule out guys who make between 50 and 100K a year. The women who you are seeking out are probably very high wage earners themselves or from families where a 100K salary is not considered especially high.
Maryk
December 17, 2014 at 3:09 PM
I’ve heard that “Millionaire Handyman” is a popular concept in some circles. Presumably the guy should be ruggedly handsome too.
Glengarry
December 18, 2014 at 9:21 AM
You have to be black to do that.
toos is god
December 18, 2014 at 1:34 PM
Of course I have a wife and kids NOW, but if I was a young twenty-something without either I might could see how sitting at home and playing on the computer all day might be marginally better than actually working and making money. In fact, some days…
Mike Street Station
December 16, 2014 at 1:55 PM
imho Well-intentioned adults are giving bad advice to young people by encouraging them work dead-end jobs instead of learning valuable, high-paying skills like coding, econ and math.As I wrote earlier, these low paying jobs offer no benefit. Unless you really need the money, it’s better to gain a high-paying skill than work a dead-end job
grey enlightenment
December 16, 2014 at 1:59 PM
That’s quite a straw man you’ve built there. Who advocates working dead end jobs in lieu of learning a high-paying skill?
Dave Pinsen
December 16, 2014 at 7:27 PM
Blogging on LoftB and collecting money from Rich Uncle Sam while you’re at it, is the new norm!
JS
December 16, 2014 at 2:01 PM
When I saw the movie Ted, a line in the movie stuck with me: Mila Kunis’ characters friends was trying to convince her to dump Mark Wahlberg’s character, how he’s “30-something and working at a car rental agency”. It’s no secret that pop culture is modern women’s mouthpiece, and that’s the mentality of many modern women — men are treated with disdain for having modest paying, ordinary careers.
Men are expected to aim high, or nothing.
Obviously, not everyone has the intellectual potential to succeed in well-paying professions, but we will always need somebody to work in crappy jobs. If men are made to feel stupid for having a non-prestigious position, can we blame some of these guys for saying “f**k it! I’ll just stay home!” ?
markus
December 16, 2014 at 2:35 PM
“yale or fail” in all things.
uatu
December 16, 2014 at 4:36 PM
I think you aren’t reading between the lines enough in your movie analysis. Mark Wahlberg plays alpha characters. Despite his crappy job he still desired because he is alpha. The job is just an accidental characteristic. The fact that his character is disliked by his girlfriend’s friends is a good thing. If Kevin Spacey, Justin Long, or the guy who played Marc Zuckerberg in “The Social Network” played Wahlberg’s character then he would be a despicable beta. Ironically enough, guys with “good” jobs are usually played by beta actors. Jay Gatsby is the quintessential beta good job guy.
Kant
December 16, 2014 at 6:40 PM
This really has nothing to do with culture but human nature really. Watch “Double Indemnity” from the 40s. The main female lead concocts a way to kill her good job beta husband so her and her lover can collect life insurance. Of course this is an extreme exaggeration but nonetheless contains a kernel of truth.
Kant
December 16, 2014 at 6:46 PM
@Kant: Stanwyck is the best actress that Hollywood has ever produced. Great movie.
uatu
December 16, 2014 at 10:53 PM
The movie The Tao of Steve (which kind of pulls its punches in the end) is about an overweight guy who has good game, so he lacks work ambition. He works as a (substitute?) elementary school teacher, lives with roommates, and has no desire to work harder to make more money.
Dave Pinsen
December 16, 2014 at 7:32 PM
Car rental businesses spend a ton of money trying to recruit new college graduates. Not sure why they have such retention issues. I see a lot of white male employees under 35, and every once in a while a grizzled old guy, but almost never anyone between 35-55.
I like how these companies take a lot of IQ 85-105 people of all races, give them stable jobs with benefits, and train them to be clean, reliable, and polite, much more than other service industry jobs.
Lot
December 16, 2014 at 9:25 PM
There’s clearly some sort of dark side to the job, otherwise they wouldn’t have to recruit so hard.
Lion of the Blogosphere
December 16, 2014 at 9:50 PM
I remember talking to these companies when I was a college senior.
Why retention issues? Pay is not that good and little room to move up. Appealing to recent college grads in need of a job, less so to anyone with a mortgage and family.
McFly
December 16, 2014 at 10:10 PM
How much do those jobs pay?
Yakov
December 16, 2014 at 10:26 PM
Enterprise rent-a-car recruits several hundred new college grads each year. I suspect that none of them are STEM grads.
E. Rekshun
December 17, 2014 at 11:21 AM
I’m sure many are science and math grads (STEM is misleading). Where else are you going to write epsilon delta proofs? Or do fluid dynamics? Or study insects?
Kant
December 17, 2014 at 9:04 PM
It make my day when Lion links me up on a post of his – I think this has been the third time – excellent.
A few points – I was long term unemployed for a while – and the only thing that suffered was chasing women.
For every other aspect, it was the best time of my adult life so far (i had savings and moved back home). I would get full 8-9 hours of sleep, work out 2-3 hours a day, cooked meals from scratch, learned how to do some basic plumbing/house work, learned how to garden somewhat, brushed up on a second language, read tons of things, watched classic movies.
I think for those that read lion, being long term unemployed (without a wife or kids – i.e. real responsibilities) would be markedly different from the vast majority of people who wapo/nyt profile in these types of stories.
I am certain of that. I do not believe the whole ‘idle hands makes the devils work” BS when it comes to lion’s readership.
uatu
December 16, 2014 at 3:02 PM
A few readers here have said, working hard is for chumps. Further, we Americans work for hedonistic endeavors. Only proles would think otherwise!
JS
December 16, 2014 at 4:58 PM
“I would get full 8-9 hours of sleep, work out 2-3 hours a day, cooked meals from scratch, learned how to do some basic plumbing/house work, learned how to garden somewhat, brushed up on a second language, read tons of things, watched classic movies.”
That was also how I spent my one long spell of unemployment in my mid-20s. I had a job start that was delayed 4 months but already after I had moved to a new city. They paid me about 200/week to not take another job while I waited, plus I had plenty of savings.
I was easily in the best shape of my life and cooked two healthy meals every day with fresh meat and vegetables from walking to the grocery. Worked out almost every day too, though not 2-3 hours.
I also bonded and got drunk and stoned with my prole roommates. Fun times! Between being in great shape, having fun, underemployed roommates, and tons of free time, I had an amazing stretch with women, meeting one after another. The key was the house I shared was clean and fun stuff was going on there day and night.
eree
December 16, 2014 at 9:31 PM
“It make my day when Lion links me up on a post of his – I think this has been the third time – excellent.”
Nice job, uatu. Lion also made my day with the shout out today. So many briliiant and thoughtful commenters on here.
Anyone else suspect super-commenter Dave Pinsen makes 10x more than us borderline proles despite spending even more time putzing around on this blog from his hedge fund office? Value transference in action.
McFly
December 16, 2014 at 10:31 PM
…it was the best time of my adult life so far (i had savings and moved back home). I would get full 8-9 hours of sleep, work out 2-3 hours a day…
Similar experience for me. I last changed employers, and moved to a new city, ten years ago. I intentionally set my start date at the new employer so I’d have four weeks off. I had a blast! I moved into my new beachfront apartment, learned the area and the nightspots, slept in, worked out, went out every night to various events. I started staying up later & later, and sleeping later & later, and started to get kind of lazy. I probably took a risk w/o health insurance for those four weeks, but I only wish I made it a longer break!
E. Rekshun
December 17, 2014 at 4:40 AM
Lion please steal my idea:
(Low) Value Transference: Get paid to do nothing – NEETs living at home playing video games types
(High) Value Transference: Get paid to do nothing – Wall Street masters of the universe types
The aristocracy of the poors! The war of high and low against middle! Brilliant!
jjbees
December 16, 2014 at 4:27 PM
Working on Wall St is not fun to say the least. It’s stressful!
The ultimate value transference job for men: Pretty women paying guys to sleep with them. HA…you can’t beat that.
JS
December 16, 2014 at 4:50 PM
Like Richard Gere in “American Gigilo.”
E. Rekshun
December 17, 2014 at 11:22 AM
In such arrangement the chance to leave progeny is very low.
toos is god
December 18, 2014 at 1:43 PM
O/T – It seems like downtown Lima, Peru – home to Mestizos, and George Zimmerman’s ancestors, seems comparable to the downtowns of many North American cities, and perhaps more pleasant than Jersey City.
JS
December 16, 2014 at 5:34 PM
Over a 1000-word article on the poor job prospects for long-term unemployed American workers and not one time did I read “immigration.”
E. Rekshun
December 16, 2014 at 5:48 PM
One commenter- ONE- did mention immigration.
It’s the New York Times. What did you expect? The truth?
Robert the Wise
December 17, 2014 at 3:07 AM
I was thinking, why don’t recent college grads apply for welfare? Or maybe they have. Annual payment figures from the major urban centers are similar to an entry level White collar job.
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2013/08/19/work-or-welfare-what-pays-more/
JS
December 16, 2014 at 6:38 PM
Welfare is intended mainly for women with kids (aka heroic single mothers). a single male will not qualify for most welfare bennies. the exceptions are ebt/food stamps (in some states), obamacare subsidies and disability. that’s why we have such a big increase in disability cases, it’s the main welfare available to men. but a 20 something year old guy will have a harder time getting (i.e., faking) disability than an older guy.
Jimbo Nobo
December 17, 2014 at 3:26 AM
…a single male will not qualify for most welfare bennies. the exceptions are ebt/food stamps (in some states), obamacare subsidies and disability…
And and ObamaPhone!
E. Rekshun
December 17, 2014 at 11:24 AM
A single 31 y/o black female that I’m familiar basically doubles her earned income with the help of government aid. She’s got two young sons from two different ex-con absentee fathers and collects $0 child support. She’s a high school grad and has regularly worked in fast food since the age of 16, and is now a shift manager earning $13/hr. That’s about $2250 gross per month.
Her approximate monthly government aid is as follows:
$700 section-8 rent assistance.
$600 medicaid for the two kids.
$40 Obamaphone (though she also pays for a regular smartphone so she can gossip on Facebook, whateber that is).
$250 Earned Income Tax Credit
$500 EBT
So her gross monthly income goes from $2250 to $4340, or $52K per year! She doesn’t need a husband; she’s married to Uncle Sam!
E. Rekshun
December 17, 2014 at 11:45 AM
What about the fact that we have a highly influential social movement, feminism, that is dedicated towards achieving outcomes such as this. It seems like you’d want to start there.
Howie Stern
December 16, 2014 at 8:15 PM
I think that I’m the only guy who works in a trade on this blog. I really don’t know what’s the problem with doing a trade. Check out this real life side job that leaves me $800 clean in my pocket. The job is to install 2 booster fans and here how it’s done:
1. Cut sheetrock and find the duct. Decide on the right spot to install the fans to increase the air flow.
2. Cut the duct and install the fans.
3. Run bx cable from the electrical panel and connect the fans in series. Connect the cable to a breaker on the panel.
4. Run a communication wire from the thermostat to a relay. Connect the hot leg of the bx cable to the normally open contacts of the relay.
Done. Total time spent for the job is around 8 hours. Is this that hard? Bad money? Why are the brats winning?
Now, 5 years ago I would have done this job for $200 and would have been very happy. Today I can charge enough to be left with $800. But it gets better, three more apartments want booster fans installed because they like the improvement. Now that I know the plan I knock them out in 3-4 hours. But it gets even better, seven chimneys need caps. I connect the caps in 15 minutes and take $200 plus the cost of the caps. Total profit of $3,400 for less then 4 days work. What’s wrong with this picture? With a few simple tools I harness a few simple laws of physics to make people happy and earn a fair living. There is no rocket science involved and most white guys could do this job.
Yakov
December 16, 2014 at 10:55 PM
there’s a lot of nepotism in the trades, as well as regulation and licensing.
grey enlightenment
December 17, 2014 at 10:26 AM
True, but NYC is in a league of its own. I only have an HVAC license but to electrical and plumbing when I can. Also, I deal in immigrant communities, so things are even more different.
Yakov
December 17, 2014 at 4:15 PM
That’s excellent! I’ve shared before the career story of a childhood friend that, at 18 y/o back in 1983, joined the Massachusetts Sheet Metal Workers Union as an apprentice. He’s made excellent money for over thirty years and is eligible to retire on a union pension at 48 y/o. I suspect he’s regularly earned well over $100K. His father was also in the union and, in 1983, he showed me his $65K W2 for the year trying to encourage me to drop out of my BS Computer Science program.
E. Rekshun
December 17, 2014 at 11:31 AM
Operative phrase: father was in the union.
map
December 17, 2014 at 3:53 PM
The $40 an hour union jobs are becoming. less common every day, the environment is more competitive but opportunities for hard working guys are still there. I prefer it this way because I have no patience for lazy union workers with attitude that I cannot fire on the spot. Middle aged workers with beer bellies are useless in today’s environment unless the union employs them or they work for a pittance. I can’t imagine hiring the guy in the article. The NYT has chosen to profile a bunch of loosers as if there are no successful tradesmen. Maybe it’s just me, but everyone I know in the trade is successful and doing well. Why would I even associate with these loosers? Where would I find them? Certainly not in the places that I frequent.
Yakov
December 17, 2014 at 8:24 PM
If most white guys were doing it you’d be getting a lot less money. I imagine you’re already earning a lot less money annually than this anecdote would imply.
Howie Stern
December 17, 2014 at 5:55 PM
The anecdotal story is an illustration of a side job in addition to my regular job. Obviously, I don’t get stuff like this every day or even every month. But I get other opportunities, which are also attractive.
Yakov
December 18, 2014 at 12:57 AM
I’ve just looked at the article. Baloney. An experienced electrician can get a job for $20 an hour cash in NYC without much trouble. If he has pleasant personality side jobs will roll in and he will prosper. Now an obese guy, sitting around with a mug of beer instead of hosting is a looser. Take your tools and go to busy intersection or a big electrical supply warehouse, hang a sign on your neck sayingas Electrician, 30 years experience, will work for $15 an hour’ and someone will pick you up. From there it’s up to you to prove yourself and to advance. I know – I get offers at HVAC suppliers without asking for anything.
Yakov
December 16, 2014 at 11:21 PM
First, 30 years experience as an electrician at $15 an hour is roughly $30,000 a year, which is nothing. You can’t score a girl or raise a family on that.
Second, HVAC is usually a commercial trade. What commercial enterprise is going to hire you out of an electrical supply house when they have to deal with permits and inspectors at a job site?
map
December 17, 2014 at 3:57 PM
Map on, mate, please…. The guy is saying he is unemployed and claims 30 years of experience. So instead of bitching and boozing he should get a job and prove his mettle.
Mate please, trade is not your field so listen to me and don’t try to be smart and don’t argue. It’s plain hard to get qualified people, just stand there with a sign and see what happens. HVAC is residential, commercial and industrial, just like the electrical trade, but what does this have to do with anything? What does having to do with permits has to do with hiring a worker when you need one? HVAC worker should go HVAC supply place not electrical, obviously. Please….
Sitting around watching TV and getting stoned will not get anyware for sure.
You dont
Yakov
December 18, 2014 at 12:50 AM
Now mate, if you need money to score a girl you are totally worthless in my opinion. You are simply not a man.
Yakov
December 18, 2014 at 1:01 AM
Working is prole for the most part. Self actualization jobs are a tiny niche, and many educated White people would never take the advice given here in regards to STEM careers and trades. It’s all beneath them, and unfortunately for those who want to berate them for being entitled with White privilege, in a few years, I would assume welfare rules would be less stringent, providing them with the freedom to pursue their passions. Further, there will be an online application process, so there is no stigma when applying for welfare subsidies at the comfort of your own home.
JS
December 18, 2014 at 4:24 PM
25 year old avid reader checking in:
I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to have all this free time to pursue my interests. When I applied to the welfare agency for rent and ebt help, they said I was ineligibile because I quit a job within 3 months so I had to work construction as a day laborer (10/hr for hard physical work) and I had a night job as a delivery driver 4x a week. Those few months in the summer/fall 2014 when I did that were pure hell, and I was still running out of money, running up my credit cards! And its not like I buy the latest Nike’s or anything either. I basically spent my money on rent, food, gas, and cigarettes (I dont do drugs and very rarely drank alcohol). So, a lot of what LOTB talks about resonates with me because it really seems like the older generation doesnt get it, that at least in NJ probably any city, you need an income significantly higher than the median to have any kind of decent life.
However, I have a golden ticket: my GI Bill pays me $2200 each month to go to school. I’m in a 6 month welding program, so I wake up at 7 am, get out of school at 1 pm, work out, maybe take care of a few errands, and voraciously read manosphere articles that often take me down the rabbit hole of internet links about history, economics, sociology etc. Lately, I’ve been playing Chess Titans on my computer after school to improve my creativity and focus abilities, with the intended goal of beating it at level 10 (the highest level). After that, I’m going to learn Python programming language from the internet. I have a sweet girl, so I’m not worried about that PUA stuff.
Yeah, my life is pretty great right now. At least until I have to work again lol.
idontwantutoknow
December 17, 2014 at 10:16 AM
Good for you and thank you for your service. I’ve read that welding, especially the complex, advanced kind of welding, pays pretty good.
Why did you quit that earlier job and what were you doing?
Do you have health insurance and, if so, how expensive is it?
Oh, and by the way, smoking is prole.
E. Rekshun
December 17, 2014 at 4:58 PM
Thank you for the kind words!!
Yes, this may sound kind of foolish but I actually chose to take the blue collar route because of that Roosh forum post http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-9826-page-6.html. Still, going away to work for good money (relatively speaking) has a Jack Londonesque allure to me that is difficult to explain. I guess it mostly has to do with taking on a challenge and proving myself (although I already did that in Afghanistan).
Before this, I was in an eastern european country studying medicine for one year as an international student. I got in through unabashed nepotism (my parents completed their medical training there). And before that, I was in a state university in the US majoring in biochemistry, but I found that I would have to develop an insane work ethic to compensate for my slightly above average IQ (I estimate around 115), which is really hard to do when you see all your friends having fun. Plus, I started to get into manosphere stuff around this time, and this truly derailed my college career as I found myself disgusted with the degeneracy I saw around me on a daily basis. Reading Roosh, Heartiste and others verbalized what I felt, and I just didnt see the point of being in that environment anymore, and I dont regret leaving.
I have health insurance through the VA. I havent had to use it yet, but since I am 0% disabled, I am required to copay $50 dollars I believe for a physician visit, maybe more for specialists. No dental though.
idontwantutoknow
December 17, 2014 at 10:12 PM
Yup, I had great time during my seven months in trade school. Enjoy it now! Why you chose welding?
Yakov
December 17, 2014 at 8:07 PM
Good ROI. After 6 months of training, I will have a leg up on joining several unions because welding is a core skill in construction. Some programs in the technical fields are 2 years long, and I dont have the patience for that.
idontwantutoknow
December 17, 2014 at 10:13 PM
Don’t you just love how the media claims men are choosing not to work? Really? How are they choosing exactly? Is it when they get passed up by the passive aggressive bitches in HR? How about those great Affirmative Action programs that give jobs to the unqualified and dysfunctional? Being a man nowadays is like being a pariah. Having skills and no problems is a quick way to being “overqualified” which is code for not a protected class. Victimology is not just a belief system now its an economic system. Enjoy the Collapse!
Joshua Sinistar
December 26, 2014 at 2:38 AM