Lion of the Blogosphere

Edward Snowden

For some reason, the mainstream media, as well as commenters on my blog, can’t seem to get over the fact that Edward Snowden didn’t graduate from high school yet he had a $122K job at the age of 29, or because eight years ago (when he was 21?) he had a job as a security guard, which everyone know is a crappy job.

I don’t know why this is so shocking, especially coming from my blog commenters who are usually trying to argue that formal education is overrated.

“He was always very quiet, and he was always on his computer,” Joyce Kinsey said in a telephone interview. Through open curtains, she said, she could see him “at all hours of the night at the computer.”

So the guy’s a computer nerd who picked up some commercially valuable IT skills. It generally takes as little as five years of work experience with some IT skill to reach a peak salary with respect to that skill.

If Snowden had lived anywhere else, he might have remained employed as a security guard, because companies would prefer to hire Indian immigrants. But the DC area is desperate for people with IT skills who are American citizens who qualify for a security clearance. I personally was involved in hiring people in the DC area for a computer programming job, and I wound up hiring some guy without a college degree because he was the first guy I found who was an American citizen and who actually knew how to program. (But in retrospect, it was still a mistake to hire the guy.)

(Note that the stupid HR department of the tiny government contractor I worked for refused to put in the job description that American citizenship was required, even though it’s legal to do so if citizenship is actually required for the job, and I got zillions of resumes with Indian names, and I just wanted throw them out, but the HR person insisted she had to call each one to ask if they were American citizens, even though I had perfect 100% accuracy in identifying resumes of non-citizens. Anyone with any experience applying for jobs with government contractors would put down on his resume that he’s an American citizen, if he was one, especially if he has a foreign-sounding name.)

It’s not that difficult to get a security clearance, millions of people have them, I had a Public Trust clearance and an interim Secret Clearance which would have become a Secret Clearance had I not quit the job before the very slow military bureaucracy got around to approving me. It’s really not a big deal getting one of these clearances so long as your background doesn’t have drugs, arrests, financial problems, or strange foreign contacts. Educational credentials are not required to get a clearance. It’s just a matter of getting hired into a job where you need one, and then it’s just an administrative hassle.

I am sure that Snowden had already reached the glass ceiling for nerdy high-school dropouts and eventually, if he had not released classified information, maybe around the time he turned 40, he would have outdated skills and find his career on a downward track.

In conclusion, I find nothing especially remarkable about his life history up to the point where he decided to release information about the PRISM program.

Written by Lion of the Blogosphere

June 12, 2013 at 9:30 AM

Posted in News

78 Responses

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  1. That 122k doesn’t include bonus. With the bonus it’d probably be around the first figure of 200k. I can see how Booz Allen would want to give the lower figure. It’s clear that they were overpaying this guy… a sys admin doesn’t make this in industry. A sys admin does code, and it’s usually the people who can’t code. They learn how to use Linux, and that’s it. It’s a notch about IT which is basically someone who fixes your computer (say, reinstalls the operating system) At many tech companies, IT people are contractors and sys admins are not, but only because they have more access to what the people are doing. Sys admins are never in the revenue-producing department, so usually low base and low bonus. This is why the 122k base sounds very high. He was probably paid to keep quiet, because he had access to sensitive information.

    Zack

    June 12, 2013 at 9:50 AM

    • I meant a sys admin doesn’t code

      Zack

      June 12, 2013 at 9:51 AM

    • notch about -> notch above

      (need coffee)

      Zack

      June 12, 2013 at 9:52 AM

    • Security clearances add a nice kicker to any job, because the options are hire someone with a clearance, or hire someone without one (hoping they can pass) pay for 2 FBI agents to comb through their background for 6 months and the person has to be assigned to busy work because they can’t work on any projects that require a clearance until the bureaucracy finishes their check.
      Here’s a survey of clearance holders salaries with a few details by field:

      Click to access CompensationSurvey2012.pdf

      and one with a better breakdown by employer type (government vs private sector):

      Click to access security_clearance_compensation_2013.pdf

      Keep in mind that government wages tend to be lower for skilled positions and higher for secretarial type positions, and that these

      massivefocusedinaction

      June 12, 2013 at 11:00 AM

    • “They learn how to use Linux”

      If you can figure out linix, you deserve the money.

      Anonymous

      June 12, 2013 at 11:09 PM

  2. The media and left’s reaction to this HS dropout, community college kid is because he invalidates their twin message of ‘go to college’ and ‘we need lots of programs for the disadvantaged’. In one swoop, Snowden shows that you don’t need to go to college to make money, even great money, you just need to know where to look for with a job, and you need a genetic foundation. Not everyone can learn to be a programmer, and many people don’t have any initiative to look outside the obvious spots for jobs. The media doesn’t want people thinking that their carefully constructued, house of cards ideology, with daily narrative management that support many programs and regulations, is a sham.

    Lifetime wise, sure, Snowden would see his income prospect slide down after 40, but if he could make 122K+ from 28-40, that is roughly $1.5 mil pretax, which is well above the average American male salary. If he can’t optimize his lifetime living standards with that kind of 10+ year run, then he’s an idiot. I have a friend who is retired at 35 after a great stretch on Wall St. The average American makes roughly 37K/annually. His 122K/annually is that average Americans 40 year career in a decade. Look outside your NYC bubble, Lion.

    SOBL1

    June 12, 2013 at 10:13 AM

    • You have to live in the DC area to get those government contracting jobs that require security clearances. And DC has a high cost of living relative to most places in the United States other than Manhattan.

      On top of that, the work is extraordinarily boring and bureaucratic. I was very happy to leave government contracting to work for a big corporation selling stuff to consumers.

      • He lived in Hawaii, I heard.

        Melykin

        June 12, 2013 at 1:22 PM

      • You are still being NYC centric here, Lion. Just go to their website and see the widespread Booz offices.
        Wow, look at all the non-DC locations I could work at for Booz. Hmm, they are near military base centers. http://www.boozallen.com/careers/career-locations I personally know people in the state of Ohio working for Booz. You need to be a veteran with a little bit of drive, and if not a veteran a skilled engineer. The media only thinks in credentialed, Bos-DC corridor or Silicon valley terms. They don’t understand the entire network of skilled Americans that make good money without Cathedral approved studies.

        Your second paragraph has no value to this discussion. Who cares if it is, in your opinion, boring? What we are discussing is the shock the left has at a high school drop out, community college kid making big bucks.

        SOBL1

        June 12, 2013 at 2:57 PM

      • Lion, I would think you would know better than to make a blanket statement like that. USSOCOM is based out of low cost tampa. Lots of TS/SCI required contracting out of Colorado or even down south depending on the program.

        DC has a high concentration, but if your contracting is tied to military/intelligence it can be out of anywhere (even low cost areas in the country).

        uatu

        June 12, 2013 at 3:08 PM

  3. What I found remarkable about Snowden is how unprole he seems. A “nerdy high school dropout”, really?

    IHTG

    June 12, 2013 at 10:57 AM

    • He appears to come from a middle-class background.

      • It’s very hard to fathom how a guy like Ed Snowden is a HS dropout, just by judging his speech patterns. Watch the interview below, he’s too eloquent and polished not to be a college grad.

        Geeks and college dropouts like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs came off as awkward and terse during their prime years. Snowden doesn’t, and a college education is a good reason for his eloquence.

        JS

        June 13, 2013 at 10:47 PM

      • To JS: High school dropouts need not be stupid. I knew a kid from my high school who was probably in the top 10% in terms of intelligence and and though my memory of his speech pattern is fuzzy, given my memories of him, I don’t think they would be too much “less sophisticated” than Snowden’s, but he did drop out because of a lack of motivation. So, I’d agree that high school dropouts on the whole are not particularly articulate, but one does not have to graduate from college to be an articulate speaker. It’s just that most articulate speakers are college material and choose to go to college and graduate.

        The Reluctant Apostate

        June 15, 2013 at 11:05 AM

  4. OT but this is why it’s sweet for bands to make music that delights affluent SWPLs. (My Morning Jacket) They can get them to shell out thousands for a destination concert event. I’m sure the attendees will be highly diverse and they will all ride burros to the venue since they constantly declare their concern about “carbon pollution.”

    http://www.mmjonebigholiday.com/

    Fiddlesticks

    June 12, 2013 at 11:04 AM

    • Where they have succeeded, millions have failed. It’s pretty good to be in the top .00000001% of any field

      shiva1008

      June 12, 2013 at 10:01 PM

  5. Lion, you are awfully sour these days. Frankly Snowden did terribly well for himself considering. The average high school dropout earns only $20K a year and it is usually in contruction or a trade or something like that. His position as a security guard would have been typical.

    Percentage of security guards where I work who make the transition to highly paid professional without ever getting a degree: 0%.

    Percentage of high school dropouts that I know who earn 6 figures: 0%.

    We know of people like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg who didn’t finish college but they were on top academic tracks before being sidetracked by their own businesses. To be hired to an excellent job by a stodgy company with not a single credential to your name impresses me.

    All the techie people I work with in government have a college degree. It is a requirement.

    Dan

    June 12, 2013 at 11:17 AM

    • A high-school dropout making six figures in a white collar job is generally smart enough not to APPEAR to be a high-school dropout and not wear a T-shirt that says “high school dropout” so you might know such a person without realizing it.

      But our system is very efficient at funneling smart people into college, which is why it’s rare, and on top of that the difficulty of getting into a career track without credentials. However IT is more prole because there are people on the networking side of ID who don’t have college degrees; it’s quite common.

      • Yes, the “hands on” IT side is definitely prole and now increasingly Black and Hispanic.

        A black IT guy once said to me “you know, educated Whites are underrepresented in IT”, and laughed as if they are missing on out on high paying career opportunities. IT, of course is low status, because of its employee demographics, which is mostly made up of foreigners, proles and now non-Asian minority.

        JS

        June 12, 2013 at 12:28 PM

      • JS, who cares if IT is low status (if it even is). Nobody even knows where anyone works, you get judged by your house, clothes, car. Status can be bought.

        Bottledwater

        June 12, 2013 at 5:42 PM

      • “JS, who cares if IT is low status (if it even is). Nobody even knows where anyone works, you get judged by your house, clothes, car. Status can be bought”.

        Tell that to Lion. I would disagree that status could be simply bought. The way you look and speak, your knowledge about the world and surroundings dictate your status. None of these qualities can be bought. IT guys for the most part are prole, because they don’t come across as classy.

        JS

        June 12, 2013 at 7:28 PM

  6. The $200K figure also could have included expected overtime.
    Your mileage may vary, but sysadmins often come down on the “non-exempt”/hardware side of the FLSA.

    There are unscrupulous shops that will give them token reporting duties as a fig leaf to label them an “analyst” or a “programmer” to get around this, but I doubt BAH would try such a thing.

    Fiddlesticks

    June 12, 2013 at 12:35 PM

  7. I bet he’s a libertarian.

    islandmommy

    June 12, 2013 at 12:50 PM

    • He donated 250 to Ron Paul’s campaign.

      diozen

      June 12, 2013 at 1:38 PM

  8. I think he must have some sort of mental problems. Why couldn’t he finish high school? I’m sure he was smart enough.

    Melykin

    June 12, 2013 at 1:26 PM

  9. His GF is a hot pole dancer.

    diozen

    June 12, 2013 at 1:38 PM

    • Prole dancer.

      FWG

      June 12, 2013 at 8:02 PM

    • “hot pole dancer”

      A contradiction in terms.

      Nicolai Yezhov

      June 12, 2013 at 8:20 PM

  10. Interesting how everyone takes Booz Allen’s word for it that his salary was $122K. I wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out that was his net pay. Also interesting how many Obama worshipers are out there now saying Snowden’s $200K claim shows him to be a pathological liar. Also interesting is how hot his (x?) girlfriend is

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2339202/Lindsay-Mills-Edward-Snowden-set-wed-fled-Hong-Kong-leak-NSA-secrets.html

    steve@steve.com

    June 12, 2013 at 1:49 PM

  11. Yes remember cost of living. I paid $1290 per month for a 1BR in an average apartment complex in Columbia MD when I did contract work as an RF engineer in 2006. I am doing similar work in Denver now, and nicer ones in Parker and Castle Rock go for $850, with better neighbors.

    Redneck Joe

    June 12, 2013 at 1:50 PM

  12. can’t seem to get over the fact that Edward Snowden didn’t graduate from high school yet he had a $122K job at the age of 29

    Naah. We just like rubbing your nose in the fact that a high school dropout with a GED and community college made more than you.

    He appears to come from a middle-class background.

    Agreed. I doubt he dropped out because he was dumb. Probably homeschooled or quit because he was bored. Probably got a GED because a diploma is required to join the army. Doubtful he joined the army because he’s a loser. He wanted to join to be special ops. That blew up when he broke both his legs in training accident.

    His gf wasn’t prole, either. Pole dancing doesn’t mean she was a stripper. She had a background in ballet and performed with an acrobatic troupe. That’s probably where she picked it up. Pole dancing has recently developed a very respectable following as exercise, sport and competition. I suspect most of those competing are gymnasts because it’s very gymnastic and impressive as hell. I wouldn’t be surprised to see it in the Olympics some day.

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-kRaR8yfqg)

    His gf went to MICA which is one of the oldest fine arts programs in America. US News & World Report Fine Arts Rankings ties it with Carnegie-Mellon and Cranberry at #7. Four years ago it was ranked the #2 fine art program in the country. I knew an opera singer from a prole background so it happens. But fine arts is very non prole.

    destructure

    June 12, 2013 at 2:40 PM

    • Eight years after I started doing computer programming, I was making more than $122K, but as an hourly employee in New York City. Snowden had a big head start over me because he didn’t waste time in college, law school, and being an unemployed lawyer wannabe.

      But on a going forward basis, Snowden isn’t going to be making much money, especially if he’s in prison. It was pretty stupid of him to give up a decent job and pole-dancer girlfriend to become an international fugitive.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 12, 2013 at 2:46 PM

      • I doubt it if he’s going to be in prison for awhile. He will write a book and bank at least a million, regardless.

        JS

        June 12, 2013 at 3:15 PM

      • I’m certain it will come out that he is mentally unstable.

        Melykin

        June 12, 2013 at 3:22 PM

      • It’s likely that Ed Snowden is heading towards TOOS going forward. He has attained celebrity status for being a whistleblower of the US Gov’t, and I believe private prestigious security firms will be scrambling to get him into their doors for a hefty salary.

        JS

        June 12, 2013 at 3:28 PM

      • Booz claims $122K. Snowden says roughly $200K. I’m not sure which to believe. I suppose they could both be right depending on perks and bonsuses. If it turns out Snowden exaggerated they’ll use it to discredit him. In fact, that’s kind of what they did. Regardless, this is an interesting article mentioning his salary and saying downsizing could cost taxpayers more money. While public employees are overpaid compared to the private sector. They often switch to government contractors where they cost even more.

        http://www.kansascity.com/2013/06/12/4288716/edward-snowdens-pay-gap-and-why.html

        Snowden had a big head start over me because he didn’t waste time in college, law school, and being an unemployed lawyer wannabe.

        I kind of agree. I spent years in school and working for others. I did alright but I didn’t make real money until I started my own company. I’m sure I picked up skills and experience that helped me but I don’t even use my degree. There’s no reason I couldn’t have started the same business at 20. So I feel like I wasted time and got ripped off.

        Snowden isn’t going to be making much money, especially if he’s in prison.

        Snowden isn’t going to prison unless the CIA kidnaps him. The US isn’t very well-liked around the world right now. Europe is big on privacy and they’re not happy about the prospect of US spying on them. He’s currently under Chinese control and I can’t imagine them giving up a prize like him. My guess is that he’ll end up like Roman Polanski. If he plays it right he could do pretty well.

        destructure

        June 12, 2013 at 5:23 PM

      • LotB has still never explained how he got into programming w/o a credential.

        Nicolai Yezhov

        June 12, 2013 at 5:41 PM

      • I learned it by myself, then lied on my resume.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 12, 2013 at 5:46 PM

      • “I’m certain it will come out that he is mentally unstable.”

        It will come out, but it won’t be true. Psychiatry has an ideological function in addition to its medical one.

        Nicolai Yezhov

        June 12, 2013 at 8:16 PM

      • “I learned it by myself, then lied on my resume.”

        That’s still pretty vague. How does one even know what to lie about if he isn’t in it? Even if unemployed and very smart it would take at least a year to put oneself through a UG curriculum in CS.

        Nicolai Yezhov

        June 12, 2013 at 8:18 PM

      • “It’s likely that Ed Snowden is heading towards TOOS going forward. ”

        Well, OOS at least.

        Glengarry

        June 16, 2013 at 6:08 PM

    • People don’t understand how little most people make:
      http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2013/01/find-your-age-based-income-percentile.html#.UbjhenDD-M9

      The 90th percentile of income for a 29 year old is about $70,000/year. The 95th percentile is around $90k (it only goes up to 95th percentile). Think about that a minute. For his age the guy was probably in the top 2%.

      http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html?_r=1&

      Even if we go by location, and assume that his potential wife only made 70% of what he does (the NYTimes data is by household only not individuals) he would still be in the top 10% of households. And that includes all households, not just those headed by 29 year olds.

      Between that and his hot GF he’s everything Lion wishes he was, and he still threw it all away for principals (of which Lion has none). I imagine that infuriates him.

      asdf

      June 12, 2013 at 5:09 PM

      • Further, so that you don’t think we are just including dumb poor people. Here are the median personal incomes by education level of full time employed wage earners age 25+.

        Bachelors: $50,944
        Masters: $61,273
        PhD: $79,401
        Professional Degree (lawyer, etc): $100,000

        That includes people at their high earning point middle age. This guy was 29.

        Only 6.61% of Americans of any age have incomes of $100,000 or more.

        asdf

        June 12, 2013 at 5:41 PM

      • Between that and his hot GF he’s everything Lion wishes he was, and he still threw it all away for principals (of which Lion has none). I imagine that infuriates him.

        LOL! And adding insult to injury, he did it all while flouting the college and ivy league gate keepers the lion so worships. And to add insult on top of insult, he supports the lion’s most hated person: Ron Paul. LOL!

        Bottledwater

        June 12, 2013 at 6:00 PM

      • “Only 6.61% of Americans of any age have incomes of $100,000 or more”.

        They seem to be concentrated in the big cities such as NY. I have come across too many individuals with salaries slightly above the quarter million mark, which is only middle class by NY standards.

        JS

        June 12, 2013 at 7:19 PM

      • Of course they are concentrated in cities like NYC. However, as I showed in the other link, even in high COL cities earnings aren’t that high.

        People get into a little bubble where they think everyone is like them. If you’re making six figures you are doing very very well. If your making six figures outside of NYC/DC/SF are doing phenomenal.

        asdf

        June 12, 2013 at 10:17 PM

    • “His gf wasn’t prole, either. Pole dancing doesn’t mean she was a stripper. She had a background in ballet and performed with an acrobatic troupe.”

      Was destructure “born a coal miner’s daughter”?

      Making one’s living as an entertainer of any sort, not to mention pole dancer, is sufficient to make any Ingrid Bergman look-alike as attractive as a cockroach.

      Nicolai Yezhov

      June 12, 2013 at 8:23 PM

    • “Pole dancing has recently developed a very respectable following as exercise, sport and competition.”

      It’s still prole, even if it becomes popular.

      Toad

      June 12, 2013 at 11:12 PM

  13. Cough, ahem . . . NEPOTISM!!!

    Comrade

    June 12, 2013 at 2:45 PM

    • Yes, nepotism might largely explain the high salary for Snowden. If Snowden’s father works there, we’ll probably hear about it. Booze is a large company with a large HR department that is going to have fairly inflexible educational requirements for the high-paying jobs. And there are plenty of qualified, credentialed, experienced applicants for them.

      Other have speculated as well, but maybe the $122K or $200K or whatever includes fringe benefits.

      E. Rekshun

      June 12, 2013 at 7:43 PM

    • Snowden’s job as a security guard was a security guard at the NSA.

      I sat next to a woman who’d made her pile in buying and repackaging mortgages. She told me, “I never went to college but I met a man who took me under his wing and showed me the business, then I started my own company and I’m retiring at 41. It’s not what you know it’s who you know.”

      The US and UK have the most rigid class structures in the developed world.

      Nicolai Yezhov

      June 12, 2013 at 11:27 PM

  14. For years you’ve been arguing that high IQ people are ONLY successful because they get good educational credentials, and here is a stark example to the contradictory and you have the nerve to wonder why anyone would be surprised? Because they believed your blog that’s why.

    Bottledwater

    June 12, 2013 at 3:13 PM

    • He was not that successful. He was never on track to be top 2%.

      I am sure that everyone knows that it’s bad advice to drop out of high school because you might be able to make 122K as an IT guy working for a government contractor if everything lines up just right.

      Remember, he’s only making that because they can’t find anyone with a college degree for the job, because of the US Citizenship and Security Clearance requirements. His salary was protected by BARRIERS TO ENTRY and not his IQ.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 12, 2013 at 3:22 PM

      • What percentage of 29 year old Americans make $122+ thousand a year? Got to be less than 2%. And his job gave him far more power over important matters than most six figure people have.

        The average high school dropout probably has an IQ of 85 and if he works at all, is probably flipping burgers. This guy has a vastly higher IQ and vastly more income, influence and importance. This suggests that even among those with equal credentials, the smart get to the top.

        Bottledwater

        June 12, 2013 at 3:33 PM

      • This guy elicits a lot of envy for a lot of geeks, and perhaps even those above them. No college degree and earns six figures with a girlfriend that many of them could only dream of.

        JS

        June 12, 2013 at 4:24 PM

  15. Public trust or secret is handed out like candy. Any military enlisted gets a secret after they process through. It’s piss easy and doesn’t add THAT much value. If snowden just had a secret, he would not be on that program or getting that kind of money from booz.

    Snowden (if his work history is accurate) was cleared a minimum of three separate times. 1. Secret with military. 2. TS/SCI w/ full-scope Poly with CIA 3. TS/SCI w/ full-scope poly with NSA (as a contractor). NSA and CIA do not share clearances even though the ‘level’ is the same. FBI doesn’t either…with the top IC elements, you have to re-clear if you want to switch agencies.

    TS is pretty easy to get as well (State gives these out for instance) as you are not required to go through polygraph. Even some pot use in college wont stop you getting a TS as long as you were not super public with your pot use and not a public pot head. Most investigations/investigators are contracted out and they get paid on volume so it isn’t very thorough.

    The golden clearance (besides ones like Q for DOE) is TS/SCI FSP…esp from one of the top IC-elements like CIA, NSA, DIA, or FBI. Lots of COE recipients wash out on the poly and the process is extremely long – CIA’s clearance time is the longest by far (many over 18 months to 2 years).

    Also, Lion said he was working under interim Secret – most agencies including DoD does give out interim clearances. However CIA does not (not sure about NSA policy is). That means after getting a COE as a direct hire or to work on a CIA contract, you need to be fully cleared through them. That is different than say going to work for DOJ and getting your interim-secret and starting in 2-3 months.

    So the combination of the polygraph crapshoot, length of time required to clear, lack of interim-eligibility, supply constrictions due to citizenship requirements (oh and being a 2nd generation citizen is an issue sometimes if your parents aren’t citizens even if they have green-cards)…couple this with the demand-side which is extremely high….you end up with one very valuable line on your resume.

    uatu

    June 12, 2013 at 3:25 PM

    • Thanks for the very good explanation.

      I want to point out that the polygraph and other stuff doesn’t require a high IQ to pass. So it may be more “difficult” to get a higher-level clearance, it’s not more difficult in the way that a college-level calculus test requires higher IQ than a 9th grade algebra test.

      Lion of the Blogosphere

      June 12, 2013 at 4:03 PM

      • Precisely. Actually, extremely high-iq individuals/creative types who struggle to focus do quite poorly on Polygraphs. When a simple yes/no question is asked, a high-iq/highly creative person in the 10×10, windowless, hospital white walled room with not all that bright tube lighting up top thinks of tangents and other things that may or maynot relate to the question or day dreams and that throws off polygraphs and pisses them off like none other as they keep asking you to focus just on the question.

        People who are very good as focusing JUST on the question or who can compartmentalize very well breeze through polys. Over-thinking is one of the worst things you can do for poly success. I’ve had a polygrapher tell me that analyst types are a pain to test compared to ex-military types who mentally just process the question without any thought.

        uatu

        June 12, 2013 at 4:20 PM

      • Very few jobs screen for IQ, nor should they. The smart should get to the top naturally, not because of any deliberate effort to make it happen. I prefer if people don’t even believe in IQ and the SAT gets abolished. There were no IQ tests or ivy league colleges for millions of years, but the biggest brained of our ape-like ancestors still acquired the most resources: survival of the fittest.

        Bottledwater

        June 12, 2013 at 4:32 PM

    • But the question is who bothered to spend the money and time to get Snowden a TS/SCI while he was working as a security guard at the University of Maryland.

      Many people in the government know the real story but they refuse to talk about it. Is it really that important to think about future criminal prosecutions to not release information that they know. Did he really work for the CIA? Did he work for Dell in Hawaii before Booz-Allen. How did he end up with a clearance to begin with?

      superdestroyer

      June 13, 2013 at 6:03 AM

      • There are millions of people working for government contractors, and I knew plenty of IT people at government contractors who didn’t have college degrees.

        How does a guy without a college degree get a good job? Same way someone WITH a college degree gets a good job? Being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people, etc.

        But once Snowden got INTO the Top Secret career track, he was assured a steady if boring job for years to come. If your the only guy with a TS clearance who knows some IT skill, then you maybe get paid four times as much as some H1-B guy from India doing the same thing at a for-profit corporation.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 13, 2013 at 9:17 AM

  16. I used to teach at a Silicon Valley College many years ago. A number of my students went to work for Lockheed which required a Security Clearance. The FBI guys visited me so often that I actually came to know a few of them I found out that checking out recent graduates to ensure they are not subversive was the bottom line job at the FBI. They all seemed to want to investigate bank robberies.

    Larry, San Francisco

    June 12, 2013 at 3:56 PM

  17. It is ok to get upset for a guy who made that kind of money without the so-called credentials.Yes, this guy is probably done for life. However there should be other people with similar backgrounds who are still making quite good sum and without snitching.

    Besides, this guy became an international news and bought his 15 minutes of fame. He is probably more famous than most of the posters in this blog now, and if they don’t put him into the slammer for life he will have quite an interesting lifestyle after he does his time.

    Colmainen

    June 12, 2013 at 3:57 PM

    • Excuse me? Why the heck would you be upset with someone making money without credentials? You think just because you went to a (good) college, you’re better than everyone else? If you’re so smart, get out there and compete on a level playing field; don’t create stigmas and barriers to entry to smart people who didn’t follow your educational path.

      Bottledwater

      June 12, 2013 at 4:51 PM

  18. “It generally takes as little as five years of work experience with some IT skill to reach a peak salary with respect to that skill.”

    But how did he get in at an entry level without any credential? Did he simply claim expertise?

    He went from the military to the CIA. It’s my guess he got a high score on the AFVAB or AFQT and was recruited by the CIA for this not for his IT skills which he acquired after being hired. Another example of it’s who you know not what you know.

    Nicolai Yezhov

    June 12, 2013 at 5:07 PM

  19. If someone is obsessively interested in a potentially lucrative field they will probably be successful to some degree just by virtue of the time input. In fact his security job might have let him put in the “10,000 hours” where college might have been too distracting with busywork, debt stress, and social BS. As far as him being redundant as he aged, he could have gone to school later to get his pedigree, although being a successful and highly intelligent “dropout” has an exploitable mystique.

    The most successful people I know had an intense interest in a lucrative field, were smart and humble enough to learn from their mistakes, and were willing to take risks. The last one may be the most crucial. I think it goes without saying that Snowden is a risk taker. Most high school dropouts are psychological fuck ups, addicts, or lazy slobs. Snowden has outlier written all over him.

    islandmommy

    June 12, 2013 at 5:10 PM

  20. Haha. This whole fiasco will teach the government to only hire mormons. Mormons worship America as a holy land, are competent, and complacent.

    Kaz

    June 12, 2013 at 7:07 PM

    • mormons would be terrible NCS officers.

      uatu

      June 12, 2013 at 7:34 PM

    • They will probably start screening for libertarians from now on.

      I do agree that the media amazement that a non college grad worked in IT and had a TS/SCI clearance shows how little they know about the “real” world. I know lots of guys who’ve worked in IT and virtually none of them have a college degree that has anything to do with computers. Many don’t have college at all.

      The contractor companies pick up on that. In the military I worked with plenty of contractors and they were looking for folks who were bright and actually had technical knowledge. They didn’t care about college or official credentials at all. As a contractor, if you work with a group of military guys long enough, you know who you can count on and who you can’t.

      Mike

      June 12, 2013 at 10:27 PM

  21. (Note that the stupid HR department of the tiny government contractor I worked for refused to put in the job description that American citizenship was required, even though it’s legal to do so if citizenship is actually required for the job, and I got zillions of resumes with Indian names, and I just wanted throw them out, but the HR person insisted she had to call each one to ask if they were American citizens, even though I had perfect 100% accuracy in identifying resumes of non-citizens.

    This is why I support giving more control over hiring to managers, not HR twits. But managers – even female ones – don’t want to do it because the value creating ones are too busy and view “HR work” as beneath while the value transference managers are too busy schmoozing clients.

    The Undiscovered Jew

    June 12, 2013 at 9:19 PM

  22. lion, please tell me that you aren’t so jaded that you don’t recognize ed snowden as an american hero.

    rivsdiary

    June 13, 2013 at 7:29 AM

  23. You’re really going to suggest that majoring in history or art is more lucrative than programming? Yes, the elite .0001% do not major in programming, but most people who major in history and art do not go on to become elite.

    Programming is a kick ass 6-figure career. 98% don’t give a shit about being in the 1%, they just want a decent life. Programming offers that, and a hell of a lot more.

    you spent your time actually being a good programmer (or lawyer), you’d be pulling down $400,000 a year doing Android work. You’d have private schools, BMWs, and bespoke shoes.

    Instead, you spend your time on stupid bullshit like “value transference” and HBD. You thinks he’s a political consultant, and that’s why you’re not wealthy. Not b/c of the system. B/c you’re bad at your job. Period.

    B/c of your incompetence and OCD. Repeat that a few times. Law sucks? No. Programming sucks? No. Starting to see a pattern here?

    rogramming might not get you into the top 1% (7-figures), but if you’ll settle for very attainable $250k by your 30s, programming is a kick ass career, if you’re smart and motivated. $250k to $500k gets you BMWs, 5BR homes, and private schools. Not 1%, but elite. If you blog all day about politics, you’ll be a mediocre programmer making $100k-$150k. Yes, even shit programmers break 6-figs. What career do bottom quartile incompetents make $100k? Programming, baby. Starting salary, $60k. Sucks are a career? You’re on crack, idiot.

    B/c of social media IPOs, there is a HUGE tech bubble right now. Programming have 10 standing job offers. It is the hottest sector out there, period.

    I even know Android programmers pulling down $200/hr. That’s, $400,000 a year, pro-rata. And he’s got more work than he can handle. He’s hired someone for $100k, and paying him out of pocket, b/c THATS how much money he’s making.

    $400k a year, and programming sucks as a career? LOLOLOLLZZZZZZZZZZ. You are utterly clueless about the programming industry.

    For $150k to $400k, who needs to be part of the power structure. Just bill those hours, put away 7-figures, and semi-retire early. I retired at 30 doing the same thing during the last bubble.

    Programming is one of the best careers out there, bar none. A programmer can go freelance in his 30s and start making real money. Either by getting into mgmt ($150k-$500k) Or start getting equity stakes in pre-IPO startups. He’s only just beginning.

    20s: $40k-$100k

    30s: 150k base, or $100-$200/hr freelance ($200-400k), or $100k base + stock options.

    Mid 30s+: Management in the $200k+-$500k range.

    Mid 40s+, director level, $500k+

    Sure, 1 manager has 10 people working for them, but they are all under 35. The odds of NOT being a manager by age 35 is slim. All this is underscored by the assumption that you are actually good at what you do. Take a look at all programmers who have reached age 35, with almost 15 years experience. They are almost ALL in a management capacity.

    I think we can agree that at the very least, a programmer can go freelance by age 30, and pull down $250k+ a year. And yes, he might get stuck there if he’s not the big picture type. But, stuck at $250k starting at age 30 is hardly a terrible place to be. Programmers, even average ones, are in the top 1%. Very easy to put away $1,000,000 by age 40. Programming is easily one of the best careers out there, no doubt about it. Very high status also, b/c you live in a gated community, and drive BMWs, and take exotic vacations. Even if you’re average, in your 30s.

    That said, I never said programming is on par with finance. It is a massive step down in pay and status. Got it? That said, “programming sucks as a career” is an idiotic statement when any decent programmer can freelance hourly and make $200k. Even shitty programmers make $100k. So, yes, when a shitty 25% percentile guy can make $100k, it’s hardly a “shitty career”. You know what’s a shitty career? WalMart worker, car wash guy, etc. You can continue to split hairs like an Aspie, but you’re missing the forest. Fucktons of people think programming is a wonderful, lucrative, and respectable career. But yea, it aint i-banking, that’s for shit sure.

    Programmers are now getting major media attention. Even their own reality shows.

    They are truly becoming ROCK STARS.

    Programming sucks?
    No, only you suck.

    TechStars Episode 6
    http://www.bloomberg.com/tv/shows/techstars/

    20s: $40k-$100k

    30s: 150k base, or $100-$200/hr freelance ($200-400k), or $100k base + stock options.

    mid 30s+: Management in the $200k+-$500k range.

    Mid 40s+, director level, $500k+

    Sure, 1 manager has 10 people working for them, but they are all under 35. The odds of NOT being a manager by age 35 is slim. All this is underscored by the assumption that you are actually good at what you do. Take a look at all programmers who have reached age 35, with almost 15 years experience. They are almost ALL in a management capacity.

    I think we can agree that at the very least, a programmer can go freelance by age 30, and pull down $250k+ a year. And yes, he might get stuck there if he’s not the big picture type. But, stuck at $250k starting at age 30 is hardly a terrible place to be. Programmers, even average ones, are in the top 1%. Very easy to put away $1,000,000 by age 40. Programming is easily one of the best careers out there, no doubt about it. Very high status also, b/c you live in a gated community, and drive BMWs, and take exotic vacations. Even if you’re average, in your 30s.

    2ndTry

    June 15, 2013 at 12:28 PM

    • The average salary for an Android developer in NYC is only $120K: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=android+Developer&l1=New+York%2C+NY

      Of course there are a few rockstars making twice that, but a rockstar lawyer (BIGLAW partner) makes a million a year.

      Any old run-of-the-mill surgeon makes more than the rockstar Android developer, and he get’s treated like a God by everyone when he’s at work, and he can keep working for as long as he wants, and not until Android is replaced by the next new technology.

      • “Of course there are a few rockstars making twice that, but a rockstar lawyer (BIGLAW partner) makes a million a year”.

        The chances of a person making 250k a year developing Androids is much more higher than becoming a BIGLAW partner.

        JS

        June 15, 2013 at 1:58 PM

      • Most BIGLAW firms have almost as many partners as associates. So there are tens of thousands of BIGLAW partners. I doubt there are as many android developers making 250K.

        Lion of the Blogosphere

        June 15, 2013 at 4:00 PM

      • Right, b/c those idiotic salary surveys are so accurate. I remember those things said the average developer salary was $45k back in the 1990s. Meanwhile, people were pulling $100/hr doing Powerbuilder. That’s over $200k after you pay your $5k in med ins. I know guys billing out at $250/hr. That’s a 1/2 mil. But there’s more. They have so much work they hired 2 people to do the work. That’s another $1mil in billables with a salary of $120k to the dev. Friend is going to clear $1mil in his 3 man shop this year. Yea, programming sucks. LOLOLLLLZLLZZLZZOLAAOALAZLZLOL

        2ndTry

        June 16, 2013 at 9:26 PM

    • TL;DR This guy’s numbers are laughably inflated.

      Renault

      June 15, 2013 at 2:28 PM


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