End of free speech?
Liberals used to be proud, once upon a time, that we so valued the freedom of speech that even the KKK was allowed to have a rally.
However, the reaction I see today is that, if you say anything about how the protesters were allowed to be there and they had a permit, or that counter-protesters are not allowed to attack protesters because of their speech (which were among President Trump’s points at his press conference), then that means you’re an evil racist yourself.
One of the alt-right guys, Jason Kessler, was attacked and punched by a man while he was talking in front of TV cameras, and the police didn’t even prosecute the attacker, and no one is even bothered by that. (But imagine what would have happened if a white man had punched a BLM or Muslim speaker. They would have thrown the book at him for a “hate” crime.)
Is this the beginning of the end of American democracy?
* * *
“Mark Caplan” answers:
The Rule of Law is through but democracy is vibrant in the sense that the majority of Americans are anti-Alt-Right. The violent suppression of the civil rights of the Alt-Right reflects the will of the majority.
Lion of the Blogosphere 
Usual frenetic meddler minds have been installed in the body public…
…every issue out of sorts has a scorpion under it, when one turns a rock over,
Americans get bit by the Meddler Mind (you know who)…………….tail wagging the dog… and not Making America Great Again…
Buroaker
August 16, 2017 at 8:10 AM
Americans get bit by the Meddler Mind (you know who)
America is privileged to have Scott Adams meddle with their minds.
The Undiscovered Jew
August 16, 2017 at 3:13 PM
The Rule of Law is through but democracy is vibrant in the sense that the majority of Americans are anti-Alt-Right. The violent suppression of the civil rights of the Alt-Right reflects the will of the majority.
Mark Caplan
August 16, 2017 at 8:46 AM
The will of the majority was anti-communist, but the Rule of Law was vigorously enforced to protect them.
massivefocusedinaction
August 16, 2017 at 9:05 AM
This just means that the violence will escalate. Free speech reduces violence, destroy it and you’ll get more not less.
Jimbonobo
August 16, 2017 at 9:13 AM
I don’t think so. There was no free speech in the former communist countries and no violence among the public.
CamelCaseRob
August 16, 2017 at 11:39 AM
but the Rule of Law was vigorously enforced to protect them.
Communism no longer applies to Progressivism since the Progressives view the proletariat as class enemies (if it ever did, Progressives were at least privately antagonistic to the working class since the late 19th century).
Marx & Engels would be as baffled at Progressivism as any Medieval Pope.
The Undiscovered Jew
August 16, 2017 at 3:09 PM
The Progressives are so hostile to the proletariat that if Marx and Engels were alive they would say Progressivism is an anti-proletarian plot by Capitalists to undermine real Communism.
The Undiscovered Jew
August 16, 2017 at 3:50 PM
for once TUJ is correct. but they wouldn’t be theorizing. they’d be right.
the more diverse a country the MORE unequal it is and the LOWER its social mobility for ALL ethnic groups.
qui bono? why the support for open borders and outsourcing among those with all the power in the US, the rich? how do they benefit from affirmative action?
the neurosis about racism, etc. among powerless people like antifa is FALSE CONSCIOUSNESS. that was engels’s term by the way, not marx’s. engels would know. he was a rich capitalist himself.
ron burgundy
August 16, 2017 at 7:20 PM
“but democracy is vibrant in the sense that the majority of Americans are anti-Alt-Right”
Yuh huh. Well the majority of Americans are anti-mass immigration and have been for decades. How’s that working out for us? Democracy, sure sure, whatever you say Buckwheat.
Meanwhile, the majority of Americans are “against” the alt-right because they have nothing but a cartoon image of it. That’s like me saying I’m against dogs because I read “Cujo.” It would be “true” as such, but it would be utterly meaningless.
peterike
August 16, 2017 at 1:05 PM
The current model of control in the US is hegemonic control over discourse; ownership of the means of idea dissemination; ownership of the press and Hollywood. Thus raising the question, how was this hegemonic power assembled, how is it maintained and how can it be undermined? Why can nationalists gain the presidency but can’t control a single major media, entertainment or news provider? It smells of conspiracy even if it’s not.
Curle
August 16, 2017 at 6:49 PM
This, exactly.
CamelCaseRob
August 16, 2017 at 7:15 PM
You do not know this for sure. How many are serious and how just go along to get along?
Imperial Energy
August 16, 2017 at 5:03 PM
I think most Americans still support free-speech ideals, but the opposition is better organized and exerts more control.
roli
August 16, 2017 at 6:23 PM
“Is this the beginning of the end of American democracy?”
Yes it is. Anglo-Saxons are the only people in the world who have developed the concept of, and how honor the individual’s right to freedom of expression.
No one else believes this, including most other European ethnics.
As long as institutions were dominated by old-money WASPs and country overwhelmingly made up of Anglos, be they upper, middle, or Appalachian working class, freedom of speech was sacred, even to sane liberals.
Liberals today consist of whites who have contempt for their heritage, abnormal mentally unstable sjws and various non-white ethnics who seek to attain power.
In any case, future USA is majority non-white, and that means in custom, manners, laws and values.
Freedom of speech? LOL, that’s one of the old dead white male ideas. You will speak what SPLC, La Raza, BLM and ADL say you may speak.
Rona
August 16, 2017 at 9:00 AM
Thank you Rona. You nailed it.
sestamibi
August 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM
There are hate-speech laws in Canada, but they were brought in some time after Trudeau the First was elected and Quebec began having major influences on how Canada is run. The British defeated the French more than 250 years ago but the French were never assimilated into British culture.
Rosenmops
August 16, 2017 at 12:34 PM
Yep, it’s the beginning of the end:
This I think is how our democracy will die. When enough people think political violence is justified, regardless of election results, then “elections” will eventually be decided by political violence and the threat of it, just like any 3rd world “democracy.” I’m just really sorry I’ve lived to see the beginning of that process.
Mike Street Station
August 16, 2017 at 1:29 PM
That is why you need fascism to destroy this Bolshevik virus.
map
August 16, 2017 at 8:26 PM
I want to address something critical here, as this is a very large bifurcation in the right wing, between the HBD “realists” and more idealists and theorists like myself.
Anglo-Saxons are the only people in the world who have developed the concept of, and how honor the individual’s right to freedom of expression.
No one else believes this, including most other European ethnics.
I agree completely and this should be accepted and educated as fact, and something worthy of cherishing and inheriting. This statement itself is what the left toxically and dementedly ignores or derides, but it can never be forgotten as Western accomplishments keep receiving flung shit.
As long as institutions were dominated by old-money WASPs and country overwhelmingly made up of Anglos, be they upper, middle, or Appalachian working class, freedom of speech was sacred, even to sane liberals.
Now this is specious. It can be inferred, as most readers here would do, that these institutions are only capable of functioning via a people of Anglo-Saxon genealogy or the very elite of the world’s gene pool. I disagree, but not that old-money WASPs were the best at managing society, they were, but because of their acculturation not because of their latent genetic stock.
I think there is a schism here between whether or not you believe civilization can be inculcated or the world is permanently unable to evolve higher ordered human behaviors unless ruled by, frankly speaking, Whites? I find that position to be absurd, but this is what I see to be the logical conclusion of the HBD right-wing who fawn over a glorious “White” past and tremble at the deterioration of our societies.
A Dilettante
August 16, 2017 at 2:56 PM
Sorry, I don’t buy that. I wish I could believe that all those immigrants came here to become acculturated to our ways and buy into the American credo. I have known some like that, but the tidal wave of Third World vermin has simply overwhelmed them.
Some years ago John Derbyshire pointed out that only about 5% of human lives ever lived have been under consensual forms of government. I am convinced that genetics has a great deal to do with that.
sestamibi
August 16, 2017 at 6:48 PM
the uk is an economic disaster compared to the rest of northern europe. better is swedish economics with absolute free speech and no immigration. largest trade deficits to GDP ratio in the OECD are uk, us, canada, australia, new zealand. not what a coincidence.
ron burgundy
August 16, 2017 at 7:26 PM
whites tried to run the world. it was called “colonialism”. the world didn’t like it. now they want to leave their own countries and move to the white countries and blame their own countries failures on colonialism and “neo-colonialism”.
how ’bout this folks? as many indians, nigerians, etc. can immigrate to the US, western europe, etc. as americans and europeans move to india, nigeria, etc.?
ron burgundy
August 16, 2017 at 8:10 PM
It is a fact that all human personality characteristics are significantly (50% or more) determined by heredity.
Culture doesn’t fall from the sky, but is a result of interplay between collective biology and environment in which it finds itself.
Old American institutions cannot be run by the multiracial elite of the gene pool, because that which made them unique is not some “truth” that can be revealed to those who have 145 IQ, but is rooted in personality, values and temperament of people who created and sustained them.
High IQ nonwhites run things in their own way.
When faced with a foreign idea, nation won’t simply change itself but will adapt the idea to it own spirit. As was the case with Germanization of early Christianity in Europe and creation of warrior Christ.
Compare that to African expressions of Christianity, or Korean, or South American. All different.
When system of values, such as communism, was imposed on Russians and the surrounding nations, you can say it way inculcated, and it worked…for a while. Then it collapsed and atheistic communist Russians went back to Russian nationalism and Orthodox church.
“I think there is a schism here between whether or not you believe civilization can be inculcated or the world is permanently unable to evolve higher ordered human behaviors unless ruled by, frankly speaking, Whites?”
It’s not clear here what exactly you mean. Obviously, on a long enough time line, say a 1000 – 1500 years, a nation can evolve strongly in a certain direction, if institutions continuously impose rules that govern reproductive success and those with certain traits are generation after generation more successful, and their genes more represented in the collective.
This is indeed what Jews in Europe did, when it comes to intelligence, and undoubtedly, many other traits.
If, however, you are talking about inculcating immported Afro-Arab babies in ways of the Western man, where they’ll grow up to be ‘just like us, except chocolate brown’ you are living in a dream world.
Whites don’t have trademark on higher ordered human behaviors, and certainly Asians now plundering Africa could impose their own system of rule on Blacks there. It would likely be brutal but, in a thousand years, Africans would be more civilized.
Rona
August 17, 2017 at 1:05 AM
What you are proposing is a genetic determinism for civilizing human beings. I agree with you that a higher ordered civilization (speaking mainly to its institutional framework) cannot just drop down from the sky onto a primitive people and expect them to “adapt” appropriately. And I will therefore further agree with you that the collective sequence of European culture as you define it, with its necessarily unique genetic composition interplay with its environment, has “bred” a society different than if the identical environmental components, e.g. Christianity, were admixed with the differing gene pools you mention. But your arguments that the western cultural practices are inexorably linked to their base material composition, or cannot be more swiftly adapted to an outside IQ elite, I find hard to believe.
This reeks of predestination and eliminates the possibility of human agency in individuals who can make the effort to adapt to a superior culture. There is a certain limit to scientific reductivism which allows free agency in human beings, enabling them to overcome their genetic limitations, over long periods of time, effectively enabling “genetic re-programming”. Lest I remind you it took centuries, if not almost a millennium, for Europe to bear its fruit through such “self-conditioning.” This is the main task of acculturation.
This is the main flaw in the second wave of mass immigration post-1965; the leftist agenda has eradicated what they would now probably classify as “violent” assimilation programs WASPs imposed on turn-of-the-20th century immigrants, e.g. Italians. Aside from disintegrating a uniform Western culture and has inflicted the racial hostilities we see among everybody today (politically that is), the conditioning is now barren. This, though, is consistent with an overall lurch of Western cultural decline towards self-worship of the self, and not to correspond the self to a higher standard than whatever it can know, i.e. the Transcendent.
A Dilettante
August 17, 2017 at 12:23 PM
As long as institutions were dominated by old-money WASPs
Old money WASP Yankees who got their money primarily thanks to Lincoln who crushed the plantation South aristocracy on their behalf.
Yet Honest Abe gets no love from the LARP right.
The Undiscovered Jew
August 16, 2017 at 3:02 PM
I had not forseen this. I figured the way this multi-culturalism would unravel would be either we would turn into a Third World democracy in the style of Brazil or India, or there would be a civil war. I had not envisioned a big brother sty;e state where everyone’s speech was closely monitored and people would be purged for wrong think.
DataExplorer
August 16, 2017 at 9:02 AM
The only way to control a multi-cultural empire or population or whatever you want to call it is through authoritarianism.
Jean Ralphio
August 16, 2017 at 1:29 PM
Watching the crazed coverage on the news this morning I thought about the Nazi march in Skokie IL in the 1970’s. The Nazi’s had to go to court to get a permit, and since at the time there were plenty of holocaust survivors in the area, the purpose of the march was to intimidate and insult. Still…the ACLU took up their case and won them the right to march (with Jewish lawyers as I recall from the TV movie).
That sort of idea of standing up for the principle of free speech, even if it’s for thoughts and ideas that are abhorrent, is now long gone. Only the right clings to that “in the current year” and they have no media or institutional power. So the free speech battle is de facto, already lost.
Mike Street Station
August 16, 2017 at 9:05 AM
Yes, the example of the Nazi march down Skokie’s Main St. in 1978 is a relevant and important reference point. The ACLU (founded as a Communist front organization BTW) forced the government to grant the extremists a permit, on the basis of their First Amendment rights. There were also heated but non-violent counterdemonstrations — the “more speech” solution to bad speech.
The police kept the two sides separate.
In contrast, at the Charlottesville Reichstag Fire, the combined forces of the city PD, Mutual Aid, Va. State Police, and National Guard were present but not accounted for. Once city officials declared the rally to be an Unlawful Assembly late Saturday morning, the cops pushed the rightist demonstrators out the southern exits to the park, onto Market Street. And Market Street was where the antifas had assembled. As fighting intensified, the police “stood down.”
In the videos of the murder of that paralegal, you can see that there was no police presence until many minutes afterwards.
In a news conference televised on Tuesday, the Chief of the Charlottesville PD basically shrugged his shoulders and said, “waddya gonna do?” Followup questions from the lapdog media? None.
Charlottesville is a huge victory for the Establishment Left, in getting the “national conversation” back to their narrative. Polarizing the world into two sides: Violent Racist Nazis and their enablers versus the Good Guys (everyone else).
The campaign seems to be very effective (at least in my family and among my acquaintances).
Outside of the anti-establishment right, who even cares about the threat to free speech that’s posed by the mainstream left and their media?
amac78
August 16, 2017 at 12:58 PM
Except for the videos that tell otherwise.
map
August 16, 2017 at 8:32 PM
The ACLU fought for this march as well though so that’s a pretty terrible example.
Magnavox
August 16, 2017 at 1:03 PM
The push back is quite a bit different.
Mike Street Station
August 17, 2017 at 1:23 PM
Things are collapsing quicker than I thought.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/08/16/odd-statement-from-the-aclu-of-california-white-supremacist-violence-is-not-free-speech/?utm_term=.7a125eca29a0
Mike Street Station
August 18, 2017 at 7:47 AM
Right, but the march in Skokie never took place and I suspect they never intended it to happen in the 1st place. They won the case, and the Nazis had some crappy rally in Chicago. No one attended except a few deranged Nazis & they slunk home. The rally was mostly about how whites are being suppressed, not Jews, but it doesn’t matter.
Lion,
Stop overreacting to this & read about the Civil War. Abolitionists were murdered. All throughout American history people have loathed free speech.
This whole thing is giving me a strange new respect for the ACLU.
I see you are still making excuses for the violence of the demonstrators, while focusing on the antifa violence. The neo-Nazis came armed & ready to provoke. Why do you stand up for these guys? They have a right to demonstrate peaceably, but not to assemble with weapons. Do they?
gothamette
August 16, 2017 at 1:16 PM
I support their right to free speech. I condemn them for putting themselves into a situation that was doomed based on the facts on the ground.
Lion of the Blogosphere
August 16, 2017 at 3:26 PM
while focusing on the antifa violence.
The Left also brought weapons (and urine balloon bombs).
The Undiscovered Jew
August 16, 2017 at 3:40 PM
“read about the Civil War. Abolitionists were murdered.”
Politicians and journalists who printed things the tyrant disliked were jailed by kind old Abe. And, of course, thousands in the southern states were murdered by this invader cloaking himself in a mantle of spurious authority.
Curle
August 16, 2017 at 9:55 PM
And, of course, thousands in the southern states were murdered by this invader cloaking himself in a mantle of spurious authority.
People like you are a part of the problem in America. And your type has been for so long time.
Rifleman
August 16, 2017 at 10:33 PM
I support their right to freedom of speech too. But I think you are kidding yourself if you think that that’s what the Nazis were out to do.
What’s the purpose of torchlight parades? They should be banned.
In the Vice film that ‘mikeca’ linked to, one of the organizers, Christopher Cantwell, was open about how he wanted violence, and showed all the weapons he came with.
This is not peaceable assembly.
gothamette
August 17, 2017 at 1:45 PM
Democracy degrades and degrades, but it still has a long way to go.
Have you ever known someone with a chronic degenerative condition? The type where they ever-so-gradually lose some sort of function: vision, mobility, etc. over the course of years?
I have. The lesson for me: there are always more steps between good health and death than you imagined.
So it is with American democracy. It’s unhealthy and getting unhealthier, but reports of its death are greatly exaggerated. Alternatives to democracy are all considered weird fringe ideas, so what could replace it? We’re not the Weimar Republic; we have no institutional memory or concept of anything but democracy. Our military regards a coup as unfathomable.
Many people still believe in an idealized version of America. Many people still buy the propaganda about the military “serving the country” and sign up. Many people still call themselves patriots and fly the flag. They regard absolute monarchies and dictatorships as horrific states of affairs.
The First Amendment is losing popularity and will continue to do so, but it still has a strong legal basis. Freedom of speech will remain stronger in the U.S. than Europe, but the gap will get narrower over time. Freedom of speech is an unusual state of affairs, so entropy will always be grinding away at it. It is natural that the powerful will want to punish the weak for speech that offends them, and being powerful, they will eventually get their way.
Wency
August 16, 2017 at 9:19 AM
“The First Amendment is losing popularity and will continue to do so, but it still has a strong legal basis.”
The First Amendment is one Supreme Court justice away from being dismantled permanently. It’s way more tenuous than you think. And even with Trump, he may get rolled by a court nominee like many Republicans have been in the past. Surely he’s safer than Hillary, but you never know.
peterike
August 16, 2017 at 1:09 PM
Justice Stephen Breyer is already on record as characterizing the First Amendment as a “collective right”, not an individual one. When speech is not constitutionally protected, then might makes right. Antifa may think they’ll get to call the shots, and maybe they will, but not without a lot of their blood spilled.
sestamibi
August 16, 2017 at 6:50 PM
Collective right…
I guess Breyer does not know what a weasel word is.
map
August 16, 2017 at 8:36 PM
” We’re not the Weimar Republic”
http://sultanknish.blogspot.ca/2017/08/weimar-america.html
Rosenmops
August 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM
Haha, Netanyahu’s son:
IHTG
August 16, 2017 at 9:46 AM
This guy gets it. The Nazis/KKK may be an ugly reminder of the past, but they are ultimately toothless, and do not present a clear and present danger to liberty. We point at them in disgust. But they have no plan to create havoc in America.
The Intifa/BLM and their radical supporters do have a plan, and by whitewashing them from the event the MSM have, in effect, taken their side.
gda
August 16, 2017 at 11:41 AM
Let’s not overstate things. There was an article on the rise of the violent left in The Atlantic just a week ago.
But where you have a point is muting and minimizing the violence of nonwhites white progressives are sympathetic to. The suppression of the BART videos, and before that the way that torture of the white kid in Chicago on FB Live were consigned to local and conservative news only, are cases in point.
Dain
August 16, 2017 at 4:03 PM
The violent left are the American Bolsheviks.
map
August 16, 2017 at 8:37 PM
Wow, interesting and pretty strong statement.
Two in the Bush
August 16, 2017 at 2:49 PM
Here’s an interesting case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie
National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, 432 U.S. 43 (1977) (also known as Smith v. Collin; sometimes referred to as the Skokie Affair), is a United States Supreme Court case dealing with freedom of assembly.
The outcome was that the United States Supreme Court ruled that the use of the swastika is a symbolic form of free speech entitled to First Amendment protections and determined that the swastika itself did not constitute “fighting words”.
Its ruling allowed the National Socialist Party of America to march.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skokie_(film)
The peace of Skokie, a comfortable suburban village located just north of Chicago, is threatened when Frank Collin (George Dzundza), a politically astute neo-Nazi organizer, selects the place as the site of his next rally. Close to 40 percent of the village’s population is Jewish, and many of them are survivors of the Holocaust. They see the march as a warning and reminder of their days as concentration camp prisoners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_Joseph
Burton Allen Joseph (May 30, 1930 – March 31, 2010) was an American civil rights attorney.
He pushed the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois to represent the National Socialist Party of America, an offshoot of the American Nazi Party, in its desire to march in Skokie, Illinois. That case resulted in National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, 432 U.S. 43 (1977), a Supreme Court opinion that determined the Party had the right to march.
Born in Chicago, his parents ran a business caretaking Jewish cemeteries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Collin
Francis Joseph “Frank” Collin (born November 3, 1944 in Chicago, Illinois) was an American political activist and Midwest coordinator with the National Socialist White People’s Party. After being ousted for being part Jewish (which he denied), Collin founded the National Socialist Party of America.
Collin was born and grew up in Chicago, Illinois. His father Max Collin later said that he was a Jewish survivor of the Nazi Holocaust and had anglicized his name from Cohen or Cohn after settling in the United States. His mother was Catholic.
Rifleman
August 16, 2017 at 9:47 AM
Does swastika constitute hate speech? I’m sure that the justices looked deeply into it, but to me, and I’m by no means objective, it sure does. So I think it would have been the right thing to attack the Nazis and fight them to death regardless of the Supreme Court decision, which in and by itself is more of a good thing then a bad thing. I know to me it’s a sure sign of the murderous enemy that should be thrown onto gas chambers, the court can hold differently, but that doesn’t obligate me to anything.
Also, I don’t understand why they were trying to even ban the Nazi march? Let them come and let’s have a riot. The speech should be free, but not the consequences of it.
Yakov
August 16, 2017 at 12:36 PM
I was part of several whispered conversations at work on Monday, all reflecting the same position; the Left and the media have gone too far; this from non-radicalized white men who are now making comments they wouldn’t have a year ago.
I work in a building with a space for the public; a SJW HR put up a poster about racism. Yesterday, for the first time ever, a member of the public called demanding it be taken down.
Curle
August 16, 2017 at 9:49 AM
No doubt in my mind there is something major happening beneath the surface in this country. My boomer cuckservative dad is even beginning to feel the fear and loathing of the MSM/Academia-complex post-Charlottesville, making totally uncharacteristic comments about how Trump was right about the “alt Left.” This is a guy who wrote in Rubio in the election.
Two in the Bush
August 16, 2017 at 2:54 PM
I saw a guy driving today with Trump Rules written in the dust on his back window,
ttgy
August 16, 2017 at 5:56 PM
What you are feeling is the anti-White, Bolshevik nature of the Left…the threat they posed to America like they did in Russia, Germany, Italy, Spain, Argentina, Chile and Venezuela.
map
August 16, 2017 at 8:44 PM
Map, I think you are correct.
Curle
August 16, 2017 at 10:17 PM
What you are feeling is the anti-White, Bolshevik nature of the Left…the threat they posed to America like they did in Russia, Germany, Italy, Spain, Argentina, Chile and Venezuela.
No they aren’t, this is paranoid nonsense. And on the other side neo nazis are not going to take over America.
Most of them on both sides are paranoid White trash with no intellectual substance.
Just emotionally disturbed weirdos.
Rifleman
August 16, 2017 at 10:37 PM
Rifleman –
THe neo-nazies are just losers who have no connections to anyone in power. Antifa has a lot of very powerful people behind it – look at how in C-ville the cops not only didn’t stop them, they herded the protestors toward them. And once they had beat the shit of the protestors, all the media wanted to talk about was the guy who got scared and tried to get away in his car and ended up killing someone.
Make no mistake, they the pawns of some very powerful people. You don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist to see that.
jimbo
August 17, 2017 at 12:57 PM
We’re at the point where “moderate, mainstream” Republicans are now calling for vigilante justice against anyone who violates uncodified taboos.
If we as a culture now believe someone saying bad things “justifies … violence against them,” we’ve walked out of a democracy and straight into anarchy.
Richard
August 16, 2017 at 10:09 AM
Marco Rubio is a fake American with a paper citizenship.
map
August 16, 2017 at 8:45 PM
Agree with that, but he was born in Florida.
sestamibi
August 16, 2017 at 11:34 PM
When you show up for a freedom of speech rally wearing helmets, and carrying shields and clubs, it is hard to argue you were only expecting to listen to speeches.
I was not in Charlottesville and neither were the people here. It is hard to say exactly what happened. There probably were alt-right people who thought they were going to hear speeches in the park, but there were also an awful lot that seemed to be looking for a street fight.
There were a large number of counter protesters who were peaceful and obviously not expecting a street fight. I have seen a number of reports of those peaceful counter protesters being attacked with clubs by neo-Nazi groups in street fighting gear, apparently in order to drive them out of the area. The reports I saw said the confrontations between counter protesters who were prepared for a street fights developed after that when those people tried to prevent the neo-Nazi groups from beating and driving counter protesters away.
It certainly looks like a significant number of the alt-right members that went to Charlottesville were looking to start a street fight. Beating people with clubs is not free speech.
mikeca
August 16, 2017 at 10:18 AM
When you show up for a freedom of speech rally wearing helmets, and carrying shields and clubs, it is hard to argue you were only expecting to listen to speeches.
Doesn’t matter. You still can’t attack them. And antifa has a history of assaulting unarmed peaceful people.
Professor Bike Lock is an example.
The politicians and police failed to maintain distance between the two groups of weirdos.
Yes, both sides were to blame but Trump is also wrong. He never likes to blame police but the third side, the police, are also to blame.
They must protect the protestors from the counter protestors even if the protestors show up with helmets and sticks.
Rifleman
August 16, 2017 at 10:50 AM
I believe the police were ordered by local government to stand down, both in Charlottesville and elsewhere where they’ve remained on the sidelines. Politically, that’s a more palatable attack anyway.
Richard
August 16, 2017 at 2:56 PM
“When you show up for a freedom of speech rally wearing helmets, and carrying shields and clubs, it is hard to argue you were only expecting to listen to speeches.”
I don’t think mikeca is defending violence against the demonstrators, just making an accurate observation.
My question to any lawyer here is this. We have the right “peaceably to assemble.” This is simply unassailable. The judge upheld the right of the demonstrators to assemble in downtown Charlottesville with the aid of the ACLU. I don’t have time to look up the particulars but anyone here can.
Virginia has liberal gun laws. But are these laws suspended if you go to a demonstration? A counter demonstration? Redneck.org (antifa org) was carrying guns. The didn’t use them but they were carrying – arguably this is a provocation….I don’t know.
If a municipality can pass laws against the wearing of masks to a demo, can’t they pass laws against bringing weapons?
gothamette
August 16, 2017 at 2:58 PM
It’s obviously a dangerous situation when to groups who hate each other both to to a protest and both are carrying guns.
Lion of the Blogosphere
August 16, 2017 at 3:35 PM
If a municipality can pass laws against the wearing of masks to a demo, can’t they pass laws against bringing weapons?
There’s an emerging bipartisan consensus that the police majorly fucked up.
Magnavox
August 16, 2017 at 6:42 PM
Gothamette,
You have to understand what a “right” is.
A right is a “right of way.” If you have a right to free speech, then you have a right of way to free speech. It’s not a “right” “but consequences.” If you are fired from your job, or attacked for your speech or assaulted or facing physical intimidation to silence you, then you have no free speech rights.
This freedom is a phantom that exists in your head. Even Chinese prisoners have that freedom.
If these Bolsheviks want to play this game, then such Bolshevism should be rightly dealt with using the methods they would use against others.
map
August 16, 2017 at 8:51 PM
“There’s an emerging bipartisan consensus that the police majorly fucked up.”
Well they did but that doesn’t answer my question.
Let’s define peaceable assembly, shall we?
It doesn’t include wearing masks. What about taking guns? This goes for both sides.
Torchlight parades?
gothamette
August 17, 2017 at 1:47 PM
It doesn’t include wearing masks. What about taking guns? This goes for both sides.
Both sides should have been separated and monitored by the police.
But that only makes Trump’s point that both sides were guilty.
The Undiscovered Jew
August 17, 2017 at 2:16 PM
The ACLU and the media have sought to handcuff the cops since the 1960s. They work in tandem along with Hollywood. Their hearts bleed when “the oppressed” riot or murder. On the other hand, if you lack melanin, you get no love. You’re only white trash.
Under Obama, the nation’s biggest problem was “police brutality.” Remember Holder, wearable video cameras, Mike Brown, etc? The police have a bullseye on their back because of the left.
Lewis Medlock
August 18, 2017 at 1:10 PM
I’ve only heard things like that from CNN and MSNBC – the people who blatantly lied about what Trump said yesterday 15 minutes after he said it. Of course the Alt-Right had weapons. They have been violently attacked everywhere they’ve gathered recently.
Copperhead
August 16, 2017 at 12:01 PM
They knew they were going to be attacked, you dumbass. Everybody knows Antifa initiated the violence, they are even bragging about it. You are an absurdly deluded person.
Otis the Sweaty
August 16, 2017 at 12:25 PM
Where are they bragging about it?
gothamette
August 16, 2017 at 2:59 PM
If you actually listen to what some of the organizers of this rally say, their goal is to create a white only state or country. In other words, they want to ethnically cleanse all non-whites from the US or a portion of it. That is their long term objective.
They recognize that goal cannot be accomplished by peaceful protest. They are trying to start a race war which they hope they can win and drive all non-whites out of the country.
It is never going to happen, but a lot of people could be killed before this is over.
mikeca
August 16, 2017 at 3:25 PM
Yes,it was the fault of the left who didn’t even have a permit. Nothing would have happened if the left didn’t show up illegally. Also, the media didn’t have to cover the rally.
ttgy
August 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM
mikeca: You’re totally confused. You have to keep track of what’s being argued about. Who (you imagine) has the more unsavory proposals is irrelevant at this point.
Magnavox
August 16, 2017 at 6:17 PM
mikeca,
And college professors go on television arguing for white genocide.
An all-white ethno-state reduces the likelihood of that happening.
map
August 16, 2017 at 8:53 PM
No one believes your propaganda. We know who started the violence. Leftists openly advocate and brag about it on social media. And many of them are with the same groups who rioted at Ferguson and Baltimore and attacked Trump supporters at rallies last year.
destructure
August 16, 2017 at 12:31 PM
Many among the Antifa are hard-core revolutionary leftists. They are into violence and mayhem. They’re not clueless college kids or dopey liberals. According to their thinking, everyone who opposes them is either a fascist or a fascist sympathizer. This is basic political sociology 101.
Lewis Medlock
August 18, 2017 at 1:25 PM
Of course they came prepared for violence. They know that antifa often starts violence. Don’t be childish.
Greg Pandatshang
August 16, 2017 at 12:44 PM
But they didn’t come prepared to respond to that violence in a way that wouldn’t tarnish their movement.
Lion of the Blogosphere
August 16, 2017 at 3:23 PM
I think that they came prepared appropriately for the occasion and they had the right to march. When Nazis march violence should be expected and that’s a good thing. That’s from my simple perspective.
Yakov
August 16, 2017 at 4:59 PM
I am genuinely interested in suggestions for how to do it better in the future. I’ll bet a lot of people are.
Greg Pandatshang
August 16, 2017 at 5:25 PM
What really tarnished it was the person who drove his car into that crowd which was basically a freak one off. The alt right clearly don’t want to do the civil rights/christian/gandhi thing where you just let the other side beat you up and make a show of it for the cameras. It’s an interesting question if that would even work given how much the media hates them.
Magnavox
August 16, 2017 at 6:27 PM
Yakov,
That’s not right. This is America.. It has no history of Nazism or authoritarian movements. It has a Constitutional structure that should be honored, even if it means assholes wearing silly costumes.
map
August 16, 2017 at 9:02 PM
I am genuinely interested in suggestions for how to do it better in the future. I’ll bet a lot of people are.
For starters, new symbology. This actively being discussed among alt-right factions. The alt-right is passed the point of triggering people to get attention. They have people’s attention now. Lose the swastikas and the Nazi symbology and memes. Americans aren’t persuaded by that. Most young men come to the alt-right in spite of that stuff. I suggest the medieval crusader cross for something strong, masculine, identifiable, European and that can gain the loyalty of many Americans. Also, the alt-right should re-appropriate the American flag. If you want to be mischievous than use the colonial flag with 13 stars. Use a version of the battle flag that flew over Ft. McHenry during the War of 1812. Bring images of dead white men, Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, Lee.
As for rallies, organized public rallies only in friendly locales for the time being. Rallies in enemy territory need to be spontaneous and of the moment. But rallies are important contra all the counter-signalling to C-ville. It’s important to occupy public space, to show your numbers and be seen and heard speaking your piece. Also, the people who say the torch light marches are bad optics are completely wrong. They are enchanting and they scare the hell out of the left. And your chants should be masculine and harken back to American history or Crusader Europe.
Andrew E.
August 16, 2017 at 9:13 PM
Andrew E: the comments I’ve seen among the alt-right say they need to change their symbols to hide their Nazi views and not scare off “normies”. They’re still actual neo Nazis who subscribe to national socialism, idolize Hitler, hate Jews, etc.
Magnavox
August 17, 2017 at 11:54 AM
“The alt right clearly don’t want to do the civil rights/christian/gandhi thing where you just let the other side beat you up and make a show of it for the cameras. It’s an interesting question if that would even work given how much the media hates them.”
I don’t think it would work at all, because it didn’t work in all of those antifa attacks and riots at the beginning of the year when no one was prepared for their violence. I think the first guy to actually fight back was “Based Stick Man” but prior to him people showed up and were surprised by antifa with clubs and pepper spray.
The media didn’t care.
Mike Street Station
August 17, 2017 at 1:28 PM
‘ It has a Constitutional structure that should be honored, even if it means assholes wearing silly costumes.’
And so did Germany and many other countries. I’m saying free speech is good and I’m not gonna ban the Nazis from marching or talking, but this isn’t idle talk, as history has proven. So this is where you have to take the law into your own hands. Like in the wild west or frontier type of a situation.
I was riding on a subway and a guy stands and in front of me and goes: ‘Heil Hitler!’. As I punched him in the face the door opened and he found himself on the platform. I’ll let the courts sort out the legal nitty gritty, but I’m my mind I did the right thing and had I killed him I would have had no regrets either.
But his is nothing. Check this out. After work I get into the subway at Rockefeller center (that’s were my office was) and as I’m about to take a seat this guy starts cursing the Jews. I had a bad day at work so he couldn’t have come alone at a better (worse for him, obviously) moment. I put down my briefcase and start slapping him on the face real hard and chase him of the train. Meanwhile Al the worthwhile citizens of the city flee the train in panic. It was the rush hour but I rode in almost an empty car till 42nd street. This was realy crazy! I mean, in Brighton Beach people would stand and watch and enjoy a fight, but here they just fled! These people were completely automized, everyone for himself and ready to scatter at the slightest sight of danger. Think, a guy wearing a suit and a tie is beating some punk, what’s the danger that he’ll switch to you? Zero! Where the hell are running? What happened? Don’t tell me these people are a nation or a society – they are sheep to be fleeced and flogged. They are subhuman untermenchen.
Yakov
August 17, 2017 at 6:53 PM
“but there were also an awful lot that seemed to be looking for a street fight.”
Or knew what to expect from Antifa. Don’t be such a putz.
“It certainly looks like a significant number of the alt-right members that went to Charlottesville were looking to start a street fight.”
Or knew they would get one. Should they have come unarmed at all, to be at the mercy of the Antifa and BLM mobs? Why was Antifa/BLM even there? If they had minded their own business, nothing would have happened. They showed up — illegally, in might be stated, not that the Charlottesville Mayor or cops cared — and that’s what led to the confrontation.
How many thousands of stupid anti-Trump rallies does the Left have where no alt-right shows up and they get to wave their little signs and chant their little chants, and then they go home swollen with self-righteous virtue. They happen literally every day, yet where is the violence from the Right?
Go soak your head, you phony.
peterike
August 16, 2017 at 1:14 PM
How many thousands of stupid anti-Trump rallies does the Left have where no alt-right shows up and they get to wave their little signs and chant their little chants, and then they go home swollen with self-righteous virtue. They happen literally every day, yet where is the violence from the Right?
That’s a really important point. It makes no sense to say that the alt right are these violent fanatics but for some unknown reason limit their violence strictly to their own events. That logic is also how I knew it was the anti trump people who were primarily responsible for the violence at his campaign events.
Magnavox
August 16, 2017 at 6:30 PM
I agree, but….
There was a Klan rally in Charlottesville on July 8, and none of this happened. The cops did a good job of separating the combatants (50 Klansmen and 1000 counter-protestors). I read that the cops were then criticized & the usual cries of police brutality ensued, so they went easy this time, and look what happened.
gothamette
August 16, 2017 at 1:20 PM
Alleged police brutality on July 8:
http://www.nbc29.com/story/35887024/charlottesville-group-claim-police-brutality-in-connection-to-kkk-rally
gothamette
August 16, 2017 at 1:25 PM
Why would someone even show up to protest a klan rally? Just ignore them.
ttgy
August 16, 2017 at 6:02 PM
The Antifa and BLM also came with helmets, shields and clubs.
You can see them here attacking the Dodge Charger that rammed the other cars. They smash the back window with clubs, where upon the car quickly reverses over them.
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dbd_1502608503
If they hadn’t been brainless thugs they might have tried to help by lifting the car off anyone who might be under it or trapped between the Charger and the car it hit. Someone could have tried to drag the driver out of the car or turn the ignition off.
I realize James Fields, the driver of the Charger, is a nazi, and also probably insane, but I’m still not convinced he was out to kill people. There were people all over the sidewalk he could have aimed for but he stayed on the road and rear ended another car.
If the police had been doing their job they would have sealed off the streets to traffic because there was a big crowd of protesters in the middle of the intersection.
Rosenmops
August 16, 2017 at 1:31 PM
I think that Fields is a hothead who was not able to keep his cool. Which makes it manslaughter and not premeditated murder.
Lion of the Blogosphere
August 16, 2017 at 3:29 PM
Antifa has been beating people who attended more mainstream conservative fare for some time: Trump rallies, Milo speech, Charles Murray speech, etc., etc. It’s just sane self-protection at this point for anyone with any conceivable connection to the alt-right to come prepared with shields, clubs, etc.
trey
August 16, 2017 at 2:15 PM
That is pure nonsense. Shields and bats were brought because that has unfortunately become standard self defense gear at any Conservative rally that Antifa is planning on crashing. The Alt Lite/Libertarians protesters at Berkeley had to bring (and use) the same gear. I’ve watched live feed recordings of the entire event. The violence was overwhelmingly, and I mean overwhelmingly, being committed by Antifa. The thing about Nazis/White Supremacists is that they’ve been operating in a world where if they commit even the slightest infraction they’ll be arrested for so long that it has instilled in them a tremendous level of discipline. With nearly a thousand people showing up, you’d think at least a few loose cannons would be causing trouble. But I watched two hours of footage and didn’t see a single instance of the Alt Right committing an assault (compared to hundreds of instances by the Alt Left). Yes they brought sticks and yes they brought shields, but they weren’t there to fight. The violence was entirely on Antifa.
BTW: The guy who made this video had to hand it off to somebody else after about 20 minutes when an Antifa mace attack sent him to the hospital. This was one of the featured speakers and a popular Alt Lite/Alt Right (he’s one of the few people that gets along with both sides) Twitter personality with nearly 200,000 followers. Yet I haven’t seen a single mention of what happened to him in the MSM, just as there has been zero mention of the bricks, cement filled soda cans, bags of piss and shit, and mace/gas that Antifa were throwing at the Alt Right the entire day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttM3_bqjHMo
PerezHBD
August 16, 2017 at 5:07 PM
Liberals are pathalogical liars. They get a thrill out of telling lies that I speculate is at least partly sexual.
Stealth
August 16, 2017 at 8:46 PM
Mikeca,
The racist demonstrators came prepared for a fight. They were not there to start one, and there’s a world of difference between those two things. As others have pointed out, there have been plenty of peaceful demonstrations by racist groups in the recent past. Also, racist groups don’t show up at left-wing rallies to start trouble. Why would they come prepared to fight? Because they know the left is going to show up with pepper spray, piss bags and every blunt object imaginable that can double as a weapon.
Given these facts, which we all, including you, know are facts, it’s fair to conclude that the violence can be blamed mostly on the left-wing protesters. Saying so does not constitute defending Neo-Nazis. As detestable, as deplorable as they are, the truth should prevail.
Stealth
August 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM
We’ll see what happens. There have obviously been periods in American history like the red scares where people are less tolerant of fringe political beliefs. People used to go around beating up nazis in the run up to and during World War II. Ditto for German sympathizers around World War I.
Magnavox
August 16, 2017 at 10:35 AM
Point me at something that shows people beating up Nazis prior to WW II.
CamelCaseRob
August 16, 2017 at 11:46 AM
The anti free-speech movement has been in ascendancy for many years now, and all the election of Trump did was to show its effects in sharp relief. The fact that Trump apportioned blame to both sides in the Virginia conflict and is still standing is infuriating to leftist/liberal types. Trump’s leadership is very important in reviving free-speech and blowing a gaping hole through the credibility of MSM, helped immensely by the Internet and its ability to give instant access to real unfiltered news. These are pivotal times we’re living in and the revolution is happening as we speak.
Roli
August 16, 2017 at 11:28 AM
The fact that Trump apportioned blame to both sides in the Virginia conflict and is still standing is infuriating to leftist/liberal types.
If only that were the case. The GOPe is outraged that Trump dared to call out antifa, too. Marco Rubio actually endorsed extralegal violence against people who say bad things. Others weren’t dumb enough to say it outright like Marco, but that’s clearly where they’re at. Charlottesville has revealed a deep corruption within the American political establishment and media, worse than I believed it was going in.
Richard
August 16, 2017 at 3:02 PM
True enough, but it’s exactly these wrongs that Trump is attempting to right. The rot is deep, but I have faith in Trump.
Roli
August 16, 2017 at 5:01 PM
Wiemar had the same type of politician as Marco Rubio.
map
August 16, 2017 at 9:17 PM
The right will never bring back free speech. Only the people who are currently in power can do that. To be honest, the election of Trump merely hastened the downfall of open expression in the United States. The recent unpleasantness in Charlottesville REALLY messed things up.
I’ve come to the conclusion that the best thing the right can do is just go home and let the establishment deal with increasing left-wing hostility. Without neo-Nazis taking to the streets, the left’s attention will go back to shaking down the white management class.
As far as those statues (which I personally could not care less about) go, white Americans need to recognize that we’ve become an occupied population, and those are the kinds of things that happen to occupied peoples.
Stealth
August 16, 2017 at 7:39 PM
None of what you say will work.
map
August 16, 2017 at 9:18 PM
A video by a woman who embedded herself with some of the alt-right organizers of Charlottesville. She interviewed the leaders, before, during and after the events to get their perspective.
mikeca
August 16, 2017 at 12:28 PM
clowns, all of them
gookle
August 16, 2017 at 10:48 PM
The KKK and neo-nazis were allowed to protest back in the day because they were seen as crazy fringe people and harmless, but now, at least some of their beliefs are resonating with a lot of whites because the left is now openly saying that whites and their culture should be replaced, and they’ve been bringing in millions of people to do the replacing.
Jean Ralphio
August 16, 2017 at 1:27 PM
The SJW’s are the equivalent of the money-lenders in the temple. Trump came into the temple to scatter and denounce the money-lenders (SJW’s).
This is the ground on which he will make his stand. The SJW’s and their cowardly enablers are entrenched throughout the political world, academia, the media, AND most recently the corporate arena.
Unless we are complacent and complicit in regard to their machinations; unless we are willing to sit idly by and accept their lies; unless we are OK with the Soviet-style white-washing of history; unless we surrender utterly to false dogma; then we HAVE to support Trump.
It’s as simple as that.
gda
August 16, 2017 at 1:38 PM
You don’t HAVE to support Trump, or even Republicans. It is plenty clear that they have failed you, they have failed us, and neither you nor I will benefit from them being in power. Note that Democrats aren’t any better.
I don’t care about 99% of the discussions that happen between the two factions. I don’t even care for 99% of the Trump campaign promises (I don’t care about immigration, the so-called Muslim threat, the stupid wall, the promised cheap and great healthcare (pipe dream), or about a ton of social issues that have come up in the past few months). And you know what, neither should you, because they do not affect you in the least!!!
I do care about him wasting all his political capital, and the conservative voters’ good will before he did anything for infrastructure and political reform, the only two things that could actually have an impact on American lives, on your life, on my life.
It is time to cut our losses.
You refer to the scripture, well, don’t just stay with the words, live up to them: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”
trap-n-skeet
August 16, 2017 at 4:18 PM
(I don’t care about immigration,…. infrastructure and political reform, the only two things that could actually have an impact on American lives, on your life, on my life.
What? “Political reform” means one thing to white people, something else for black people, something else for Lateeenos and still something else for Asians.
Andrew E.
August 16, 2017 at 4:35 PM
Well, I guess you don’t HAVE to support Trump. But if you don’t, who is going to stand up against the leftist trope on your behalf? Who will champion the destruction of political correctness and identity politics?
There is no one. If the head isn’t crushed now, the snake will never die; just grow stronger and stronger over time.
Is it OK with you that Google effectively controls reality online? Do you think that the left should rule the Internet and tell us what to think? That they should be able to airbrush out inconvenient people and events from history? Then by all means remain silent.
Trump may offer faint hope, but he is our only hope. So you can run and hide and remain silent, you can virtue signal, or you can support him.
“I do care about him wasting all his political capital, and the conservative voters’ good will before he did anything for infrastructure and political reform”
You don’t get it. Do you have any conception of the forces arraigned against him or the battle he has had? It’s absolutely miraculous that he has accomplished all he has. The frenzy to depose a sitting President is reaching a crescendo. Read the NSC memo. http://archive.is/q7q14
This nonsense is now the new “Russia” narrative.
“When they came for the President, I did not speak up, for I was afraid” just leads to “When they finally came for me, a badthinker, there was no one left to speak up for me.”
So you think he should not expend his political capital on fighting political correctness, which was a core platform of his agenda? That will never happen. Perhaps you just roll over and expose your gnads to the left right now.
gda
August 16, 2017 at 7:00 PM
“And you know what, neither should you, because they do not affect you in the least!!!”
Immigration and trade are the two most important issues there are. We’re losing over $500B per year. That’s unsustainable and will destroy America. Immigration is even worse, There are over 100 million foreigners living in America, That’s nearly a third of the population. They are NOT Americans, Their children are not Americans. Being born in America doesn’t make one American any more than being born in a barn makes one a horse. They’re invaders.
destructure
August 16, 2017 at 7:22 PM
Trump isn’t “wasting” political capital. He is creating it. Luther Strange’s abysmal performance yesterday virtually assures that Moore will win the run off. Heller and Flake are looking at likely primary defeats as well. After years of committing egregious acts of violence across the country, the Alt Left was finally called to account yesterday. The media is howling so loudly only because they know Trump is delivering devastating blows. This is a long term, bare knuckles brawl for the survival of our nation. Trump is playing for keeps.
PerezHBD
August 16, 2017 at 7:47 PM
Personally, I’m kind of a social democrat…. who loves guns and free speech a lot. I’ll be voting for the Republicans.
Stealth
August 16, 2017 at 7:57 PM
Well Jesus was crucified and almost totally forgotten for decades before gaining influence at a glacial pace over hundreds of years. Trump’s performance so far is consistent with that.
Magnavox
August 16, 2017 at 5:57 PM
Oh sure, it’s been that way for awhile, wouldn’t you think? For example that San Jose high school two years ago which forbade a white student from wearing a patriotic t-shirt because it triggered the mexers, who of course displayed the Mex flag routinely.
Strange coincidence yesterday on the golf course. Found myself one group ahead of a 12-some of Googlers, 9 men 3 women, 2 desis. I asked one of the Indians if women can really do math, and he said, “of course!”
Explainer 21
August 16, 2017 at 1:46 PM
yes. the reporters questions were bizarre. it was clear they thought the people with the permit should not have been allowed to speak, that those without the permit were right to try to silence them like they did at ucb.
Congress shall make no law…abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
this is what would have happened without the violent “counter protesters”. the nazis and WNs didn’t go on a rampage against the townies.
ron burgundy
August 16, 2017 at 2:17 PM
Just as there are moderate, intelligent conservatives, there are moderate, intelligent liberals. Free speech is a cornerstone of democracy, and every truly intelligent person recognizes that its long-term benefits far outweigh the downsides of free–and even hate–speech. Most liberals (albeit maybe not the most vocal ones) recognize that Americans have the right to express their political views, regardless of how idiotic, or downright evil they may be.
I praise this nation’s strong response against hate speech, nazism and white-supremacism. It makes me hopeful about the future. It is natural for an over-correction to appear after such a powerful reaction. However, I believe that democratic values will prevail, and free speech will return to its rightful place at the center of political life.
Unfortunately, hate speech will continue to be part of the life of our country. It is something that we have to put up with for the greater good of a healthy political process. I am, however, very happy to see that almost everyone I know has so openly and vehemently denounced it.
trap-n-skeet
August 16, 2017 at 3:52 PM
Saying you want a white country is not hate speech.
Andrew E.
August 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM
“Saying you want a white country is not hate speech.”
According to academics, the media, Hollywood, and just about every elected official it is. Saying blacks do not perform as well academically as other groups is also hate speech. Saying that Islam might not be a religion of peace is hate speech. Saying women don’t belong on the front lines is hate speech. It’s called political correctness and this is how the elites control the masses and potential “troublemakers.”
Lewis Medlock
August 17, 2017 at 4:09 PM
@ TNS
Nobody cares about how virtuous all your cuck friends are.
And moderate liberals are not going to stand arm and arm with you, to save free speech. Moderate liberalism is literally dying out.
Lowe
August 16, 2017 at 4:31 PM
Here is what my ‘cuck friend’ said:
“Racism is evil, And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.”
If you disagree with this virtuous statement, I pity you.
trap-n-skeet
August 16, 2017 at 4:43 PM
Yes, your friend is a cuck.
map
August 16, 2017 at 9:38 PM
Moderate Liberalism basically does not exist, since it accepts the premises of the extreme Left. What’s ‘moderate’ today will become irredeemably racist tomorrow when the extremists make a new victim hierarchy. The extreme left defines all opinions to the right as racist and misogynist, despite being based on common sense and factuality. This is precisely what led to Trump’s popularity — If moderate Liberals want to have a moderate Conservatism then they need to stop lumping idiot Nazi shitheads in with people who observe and acknowledge basic facts about physical reality.
Panther of the Blogocube
August 17, 2017 at 12:25 AM
“Moderate Liberalism basically does not exist, since it accepts the premises of the extreme Left. What’s ‘moderate’ today will become irredeemably racist tomorrow when the extremists make a new victim
hierarchy. ”
Agree completely.
Liberalism, or the left, is all going in the same direction. Antifa may want to move quicker than Bernie, who wants to move quicker than Hillary; but the direction is the same. The right, on the other hand, is all over the place.
Mike Street Station
August 18, 2017 at 8:00 AM
You talk like one of the pigs in Animal Farm.
Richard
August 16, 2017 at 5:12 PM
‘Hate speech’ doesn’t exist per say, the term exists solely as a pre-emptive strike against the enunciation of ideas, usually heretical ideas, to which the hate identifier has no credible retort. It serves as a defensive shield for romantics and literary types who can’t ‘do’ logic and must rely on crowd sympathy to distract from the what would otherwise be embarrassing exchange.
Curle
August 16, 2017 at 5:27 PM
Well said Curle. Morons who utter phrase “Hate speech is not free speech” make me despair at the level the culture can sink to.
It’s like a cult chant, once you hear it you understand that any logical examination of the issue is simply impossible.
Rona
August 17, 2017 at 5:11 PM
Hate speech is very simple. When Hitler had said that he would send the Jews to the gas chambers, nobody believed him. When Nazis and various anti-semites say it today, I beleive them. Ofcourse there is a whole body of legal mumbo-jumbo about it, but in our concrete case this is very simple.
Yakov
August 18, 2017 at 4:22 PM
To be fair the the protester, they expressed their hatred of Jews without any clear plan of what they want to do about the Jews.
Lion of the Blogosphere
August 18, 2017 at 4:34 PM
I think TNS defines hate speech as anything he doesn’t like, He’d be just fine with saying hateful things about whites.
destructure
August 16, 2017 at 6:25 PM
what’s “hate speech”?
my understanding is its legal sense is only a classification of evidence of motive. that is, if someone commits a crime because he hates certain enumerated groups of people then his sentence can be increased. motive is a legitimate consideration in sentencing but at the same time punishing someone for what he thinks is not legitimate. antinome?
in general the only speech which is illegal in the US is threats or “fire!” in a theatre or sometimes rarely nuissance. even the advocating of violence is protected as long as it isn’t an order or plan to commit violent acts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio
nothing makes me feel more patriotic than seeing someone burn the flag.
ron burgundy
August 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM
who’s saying the kkk / alt right arent allowed to have a rally? they can rally all they want, its just that others are showing up to protest their rally. nothing wrong with that
GM
August 16, 2017 at 4:43 PM
The Liberals are the Libertarians. They’re not confused about free speech.
rob
August 16, 2017 at 5:04 PM
“The Liberals are the Libertarians. They’re not confused about free speech.”
Sure. That’s why liberals helped institute political correctness, which is the antithesis of free speech.
Lewis Medlock
August 17, 2017 at 4:15 PM
so the businessmen have deserted trump for fear of bad press or because they’re stupid. whichever it is it’s bad. the press has far too much power or america’s business leaders are dumb. i’m guessing it’s both.
ron burgundy
August 16, 2017 at 6:07 PM
this has ripped the mask off the msm. they aren’t even pretending to be journalists anymore. but at least it’s no longer frustrating to hear 10 lies every minute.
ron burgundy
August 16, 2017 at 6:12 PM
What an earlier commentator said has nailed it I think. Whilst the right wing were characterised by Hollywood Nazis saying goofy things about Hitler the Establishment had no problem with their demonstrations and marches. But its no longer Clowns, its regular white men, and the issue is no longer “The Jew”, its white people becoming a powerless minority in their own ancestral homelands. This is a legitimate concern and it must surely resonate with lots of people. No-one expects that the Japanese or the Mexicans or the Nigerians should accept minority status in their own countries. Why should whites? This is logic and reason, not goofy nonsense. Hence the establishment has to shut it down BAMN.
martin2
August 16, 2017 at 7:32 PM
yes. the kkk and the people dressing up like nazis, unless they’re just trolls, are morons. but the so-called “alt-right” has very legitimate issues which are never discussed in the msm.
furthermore the alt-right now has quite a few people who are not stupid, unlike the kkk and nazi larpers.
the hatred of these people in charlottesville is more motivated by classism than by anti-racism. if future such meetings were attended exclusively by “frat boys” they’d get further. really. anti-racism is false consciousness.
ron burgundy
August 16, 2017 at 8:45 PM
America has never had free speech, ever, because of guns. I could have killed many men, with words, but I haven’t because I don’t know who is packing real heat.
DaddyFrank
August 17, 2017 at 11:36 AM
Well, up here in Canada, all this kerfuffle down south has provided an excuse for Jordan Peterson to be denied his free speech.
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/facing-pushback-ryerson-cancels-panel-discussion-on-campus-free-speech/wcm/65986f6f-d393-4213-b10d-003e1c348c44
They weasel out by claiming “safety concerns”.
“After a thorough security review, the University has concluded that Ryerson is not equipped to provide the necessary level of public safety for the event to go forward,”
Isn’t it comforting to know the University is able to perform “a thorough security review” so quickly and efficiently. Such dedication to protecting their students.
gda
August 17, 2017 at 12:41 PM